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Full text of "Juvenile delinquency (obscene and pornographic materials) Hearings before the Subcommittee to Investigate Juvenile Delinquency of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, Eighty-fourth Congress, first session, pursuant to S. Res. 62 .."

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S.  Res.  62 


MAY  24,  26,  31,  JUNE  9  AND  18, 1955 

Printed  for  the  use  of  the  Committee  on  the  Judiciary 



SEP  12  1955 











S.  Res.  62 


MAY  24,  26,  31,  JUNE  9    AND  18,  1955 

Printed  for  the  use  of  the  Committee  on  the  Judiciary 

65263  WASHINGTON  :   1955 

JAMBS  O.  EASTLAND,  Mississippi 
ESTES  KEFAUVER,  Tennessee 
OLIN  D.  JOHNSTON,  South  Carolina 
THOMAS  C.  HENNINGS,  JR.,  Missouri 
JOHN  L.  McCLELLAN,  Arkansas 
JOSEPH  C.  O'MAHONEY,  Wyoming 


West  Virginia,  Chairman 
WILLIAM  LANGER,  Nortli  Dakota 
WILLIAM  E.  JENNER,  Indiana 
EVERETT  Mckinley  DIRKSEN,  Illinois 

Subcommittee  To  Investigate  Ju\'enile  Delinquency  in  the  United  States 

ESTES  KEFAUVER,  Tennessee,  Chairman 
THOMAS  C.  HENNINGS,  Jr.,  Missouri  WILLIAM  LANGER.  North  Dakota 


James  H.  Bobo,  General  Counsel 



statement  of —  p 
Burgum,   Leslie  R.,  attorney  general,  State  of  North  Dakota.   Bis- 
marck, N.  Dak _              _  OQQ 

Egan,  Father  Daniel,  Franciscan  priest,  Gr'aymoor,"  Garrison  "n  Y"  "  '  70 

Karpman,     Dr.    Benjamin,    chief    psychotherapist,     St.     Elizabeths 

Hospital,  Washington,  D.  C__      _        ______  ______  «n 

Thomas,  Norman,  New  York,  N.  Y  01-7 

Testimony  of—  "        -----  zi/ 

Alberts    David  S.,  accompanied  by  counsel,  Stanley  Fleishman.  Los 

Angeles,  Calif _'  007 

Alberts,  Mrs.  Violet  Evelyn  Stanard,  Los"  AngelesVCalif ~  "  "  ~  39O 

Bair,  Robert  R.,  assistant  United  States  attornev,  district  of  Mary- 
land  ~ _  -^         ... 

Barnes,  Phillip  I.,  police  officer,  administrativevicesquad"  porno- 
graphic detail,  Los  Angeles  Police  Department,  Los  Angeles,  Calif 

tilick  Inspector  Roy,  head  of  vice  squad,  Police  Department,  Wash- 
ington, D.  C _  _  _   '  JQ3   272 

^^M-\   ^*^^Seant  Joseph  E.,    Detroit    Police    Department," "Detroit,     ' 

Butler,  Lieutenant  George,  Dallas  Police  be"p"ar"tme"nt,"f)a"ira"s""fex" 

investigator  for  the  Subcommittee .._    _      _ "'       255 

Caidin,  Stanley  R.,  attorney  at  law,  Beverly  Hills," Cali"f  !"_"__        I       339 
Cavanaugh,  Eugene  O.,  chief,  youth  squad.  New  York"  Cit"y  "Board 

of  Education,  New  York,  N.  Y 93 

Chumbris,  Peter  N.,  associate  counsel,  "Unite"d  States  Senate  "s"ubcom- 

committee  To  Investigate  Juvenile  Delinquency     __ 46 

Deerson,    William,    dean    of   discipline,    Haaren   High   s"chool,    N"e"w 

_lork,  N.  Y '      _  7g 

_    Fishman,  Irving,  Deputy  Collector  of  Customs,  "New"  Y"o"r~k."N"Y  249 

Fodor,  George,  St.  Petersburg,  Fla  I54 

Gillman,  Morris,  New  York,  N.  Y _  __      _  945 

Grimm,  Clarence,  Coral  Gables,  Fla __"___        ]        223 

Henry,  Dr.  George  W.,  professor  of  chnical"  psychiatry," CornelftTnil 

versify,  college  of  medicine,  Ithaca,  N.  Y___L 210 

Klaw,  Irving,  accompanied  by  counsel,  Coleman  Gangel,"  New  York", 

_'       229 

Maletta,  Eugene,  accompanied  by  counsel,  Leon  D.  Lazer,  Richmond 

Hill,  N.  Y 175 

Miller,  William  J.,  Hollywood,  Calif _""""!   _    ~_~       397 

Mishldn,    Eddie,   accompanied   by  counsel,    Daniel  Weiss, "  Yonkers^ 

_      158   239 

Nelson,   James   F.,   deputy  district  attorney,"  "Los"  Angeles  "c"o"u"n"tv      ' 

Calif •"       4J3 

O'Brien,    William   C,    Assistant  Solicitor,    Post"  Office   Department, 

accompanied  by  Harry  J.  Simon,  inspector,  Post  Office  Department, 

Washington,  D.  C 283   306 

Roth,  Samuel,  New  York,  N.  Y "-"_I___L__I "~II__     '  187 

Rotto,  Abe,  accompanied  by  counsel,  H.  Robert  Levine,  Bro'o'klyn, 

N.  Y_ 


Rubin    Abraham,  accompanied  by  counsel,  Daniel  Weiss,  Brooklyn, 

N.  Y 149  243   260 

Sheehan,    Lt.   Ignatius,    morals  squad,    Chicago   Police  Department, 

Chicago,  111 __        _  124 



Testimony  of — Continued  ^"s® 

Shomer,  Louis,  accompanied  by  counsel,  Jacob  Rachstein,  Brooklyn, 

N.  y1 "- 178,265 

Sobel,  Arthur  Herman,  accompanied  bv  counsel,  Morris  D.  Hohrar, 

New  York,  N.  Y 161 

Stapenhorst,  Ralph  E.,  postal  inspector,  Glendale,  Calif 355 

Sullivan,   Lt.  Walter  J.,  investigator  for  the  District  Attorney,  Los 

Angeles  County,  Calif 392 

Tager,  Mary  Dorothy,  Balboa,  Calif 315 

Thoms,  Mr.  and  Mrs.  Robert,  Rutherford,  N.  J 96 

Whipple,  Lawrence  A.,  director  of  public  safety,  Jersey  City,  N.  J., 

accompanied   by   Sgt.    Alfred   Jago   and   Detective  John   Higgins, 

Jersey  City  Police  Department,  Jersey  City,  N.  J 114 


Number  and  summary  ofexhihit 

1.  Copy  of  Perspectives  On  Delinquency  Prevention,  a  report  by  Henry 

Epstein,  deputy  mayor  to  Robert  F.  Wagner,  mayor  of  the  city  of 

New  York ^  2 

2.  Copies  of  Senate   Resolution   89,   83d  Congress,    1st  session;    Senate 

Resolution  190,  83d  Congress,  2d  session;  Senate  Resolution  62, 
84th  Congress,  1st  session;  and  resolutions  dated  May  20,  1955,  au- 
thorizing Senator  Estes  Kefauver  to  hold  hearings ^  44 

3.  Copies  of  Federal  Statutes  Nos.  1461,  1462,  1463,  and  1464 2  45 

4.  Summary  of  State  laws  pertaining  to  obscene  and  pornographic  ma- 

terials        ^  49 

5.  Copy  of  the  subcommittee  letter  sent  to  various  police  officials  through- 

out the  country ^  S3 

6.  Copy  of  letter  dated  February  3,    1953,  from  Louis  Stevens  Saxton 

addressed  to  Clarence  Meade  Barnes,  and  related  material ^  62 

7.  Copy  of  subpena  dated  May  19,  1955,  addressed  to  Irving  Klaw _       2  §9 

8.  Copy   of  a  doctor's   certificate  concerned  with  the  health  of   Louis 

Finkelstein -       ^  ^1 

9    Information  of  Eugene  Cavanagh  outlining  the  activities  of  the  youth 

squad  from  April  1,  1954,  to  March  31,  1955 '  94 

10.  Copy  of  an  admission  ticket  to  Colossal  Good  Time  Night,  March  29, 

1953 1  105 

11.  Copy  of  a  receipt  from  Anderson  Film  Rental  Service,  Elgin,  111 ^  ]_30 

12.  Copy  of  the  police  record  of  Al  Stone,  alias  Abraham  Rubin,  from  the 

Detroit  Police  Department,  Detroit,  Mich ^  135 

13.  Copy  of  income  tax  and  bank  statement  information,   1950  through 

1954,  of  Al  Stone,  alias  Abraham  Rubin ^  152 

14.  Copy    of    the   stenographer's    minutes    of   the    case    United   States    of 

America  v.  Harold  Kantor,  heard  in  the  United  States  District 
Court,  Southern  District  of  New  York ^  164 

15.  Stock  Theft   "Fence"   Given   Prison   Term,   article  appearing  in  the 

October  26,  1937  issue  of  the  New  Haven  Evening  Register,  New 
Haven,  Conn ^  467 

16.  List  of  pornographic  material  found  in  the  possession  of  Abe  Rotto  on 

July  29,  1954 ^  173 

17.  Copy" of  an  advertisement  of  the  Atine  Co.,  New  York  City,  received 

by  a  juvenile 1°^ 

18.  Advertisement  and  letter  of  transmittal  concerned  with  obscene  litera- 

ture received  through  the  mails ^  191 

19.  Additional  advertisements  and  letters  of  transmittal  concerned  with 

obscene  literature  received  through  the  mails  by  several  individuals.  -     ^  193 

20.  Newspaper  clippings  from  several  Florida  papers ^  228 

21.  Copy  of  the  97th  edition  of  Cartoon  and  Model  Parade,  published  by 

Irving  Klaw ]  233 

22.  Photographs  submitted  by  Irving  Fishman ^54 



23.  Samples  of  pornography  submitted  by  Lieutenant  Butler ^259 

24.  Road  map  of  the  Northeastern  United  States  with  numerous  cities 

circled  alleged  to  have  been  taken  from  the  possession  of  Abraham 
Rubin,  alias  AI  Stone,  by  the  Detroit  Police  Department *  263 

25.  Name  and  address  book  belonging  to  Abraham  Rubin,  alias  Al  Stone__     ^265 

26.  Copy  of  a  subpena  dated  May  19,  1955,  addressed  to  Aaron  Moses 

Shapiro ^207 

27.  Copy  of  a  subpena  dated  May  19.  1955,  addressed  to  Joseph  Piccarellie~_  ^  268 

28.  Photograph  of  pornographic  materials ^282 

29.  List  of  film  titles  in  the  possession  of  Simon  Simring ^282 

30.  Three  photos  of  indecent  acts  by  children  4,  6,  and  10  years  old ^  283 

31.  Letter  dated  June  8,   1955,   from   Congressman   John  A.   Blatnik   of 

Minnesota,  addressed  to  Mr.  Peter  Chumbris,  associate  counsel, 
United  States  Senate  Subcommittee  To  Investigate  Juvenile  Delin- 
quency      ^291 

32.  Copy  of  House  bill  No.  825,  34th  North  Dakota  Legislative  Assembly, 

prohibiting  the  sale,  distribution,  or  exhibition  of  lewd  and  obscene 
matter  to  persons  under  21  years  of  age ^  301 

33.  Samples  of  literature  sent  to  customers  by  Mrs.  Dorothy  Tager ^324 

34.  Copy  of  a  check  in  the  amount  of  $1,329.95  made  payable  to  Stanley 

Caiden,  from  Mrs.  Louis  Tager's  account  at  the  California  Bank, 

Los  Angeles,  Calif ^342 

35.  Reporter's  transcript  of  partial   proceedings  in  the  case  of   United 

States  V.  Roy  J.  Ross  of  the  United  States  District  Court,  Southern 
District  of  California,  March  23,  1954 ^S5^ 

36.  Copy  of  an  advertisement  from  Male  Merchandise  Mart,  Hollywood 

Calif 1368 

37.  Copy   of  an   accompanying  folder   to   the  advertisement  from   Male 

Merchandise  Mart,  Hollywood,  Calif ^368 

38.  Copy   of   advertisement    received    by    the   subcommittee   from   Male 

Merchandise  Mart,  Hollywood,  Calif ^369 

39.  Clean-Up-The-Mails   Campaign,   article  appearing  in   the  March   17, 

1955,  issue  of  the  Postal  Bulletin,  United  States  Post  Office  Depart- 
ment   -373 

photography ^381 


41.  Copy  of  a  subpena  dated  June  10, 1955,  addressed  to  David  S.  Alberts_~_  =*  389 

42.  Copy  of  the  police  record  of  William  Miller =408 

'  On  file  with  the  subcommittee. 
'  Printed  in  the  record. 


(Obscene  and  Pornographic  Materials) 

TUESDAY,   MAY  24,    1955 

United  States  Senate, 
subcommiitee  of  the  committee  on  the  judiciary 
To  Invesitgate  Juvenile  Delinquency, 

New  York,  N.  Y. 

The  subcommittee  met,  pursuant  to  notice,  at  9  a.  m.,  in  room  104, 
"United  States  Court  House,  Foley  Square,  New  York  City,  N.  Y., 
Senator  Estes  Kefauver,  chairman,  presiding. 

Present :  Senator  Estes  Kefauver,  Senator  William  Langer. 

Also  present :  James  H.  Bobo,  general  counsel ;  Peter  N.  Chumbris, 
associate  counsel;  Vincent  Gaughan,  special  counsel;  Edward  Lee 
McLean,  editorial  director;  George  Martin  and  George  Butler,  con- 
sultants to  the  subcommittee. 

(yhairman  Kefauver.  Tlie  subcommittee  will  come  to  order. 

This  is  a  subcommittee  of  the  Senate  Committee  on  the  Judiciary, 
established  by  order  of  the  Senate.  The  members  of  the  subcommittee 
are  the  distinguished  Senator  from  North  Dakota,  Senator  Langer, 
who  is  with  us  today,  and  who  has  taken  a  great  deal  of  interest  in 
the  work  of  the  subcommittee,  and  was  former  chairman  of  the  full 
Committee  on  the  Judiciary;  Senator  Wiley,  of  Wisconsin;  and 
Senator  Hennings,  of  Missouri. 

The  subcommittee  wishes  to  first  express  its  appreciation  to  Mr. 
Mike  Lordan,  superintendent  of  the  building,  and  the  others  who  have 
been  so  cooperative  in  arranging  for  this  courtroom;  Judge  Hart  and 
members  of  the  court. 

\ye  are  glad  to  again  be  in  the  great  city  of  New  York.  The  problem 
of  juvenile  delinquency  which  brings  us  here  at  this  time  deserves 
and  requires  the  best  attention  and  the  best  effort  of  every  American 
citizen.  The  future  of  this  country  is  irrevocably  tied  with  our 
young  people.  If  this  is  a  great  generation  we  are  rearing,  and  I 
am  firmly  convinced  it  is,  then  the  future  of  our  democracy  is  secure. 
Yet  we  must  face  up  to  the  problems  besetting  our  young  people. 

These  3  days  of  hearings  will  be  devoted  to  pornographic  material, 
a  specialized  subject  within  the  general  field  of  juvenile  delinquency. 
This  is  a  nationwide  hearing.  Later  our  subcommittee  will  return 
to  New  York  to  hold  additional  hearings  on  the  broad  aspects  of 
juvenile  delinquency ;  but  at  this  time  I  do  want  to  commend  the  many 
fine  efforts  being  made  to  remedy  the  problems  of  juvenile  delinquency 
here  in  the  Nation's  largest  city  by  public  officials,  churches,  schools, 
and  individuals. 

I  have  been  particularly  impressed  by  the  report  of  Deputy  Mayor 
Henry  Epstein  concerning  all  phases  of  juvenile  delinquency  here  and 


his  recommendations  designed  to  correct  the  problems  inherent  in 
juvenile  delinquency. 

Now  I  want  to  order  Mr.  Epstein's  report  to  be  printed  in  the 
record  at  this  time. 

(The  report  above  referred  to,  entitled  "Perspectives  on  Delinquency 
Prevention,''  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  1,"  and  is  as  follows :) 

Exhibit  No.  1 

Perspectives  on  Delinquency  Prevention 

(City  of  New  York,  1955.     Robert  F.  Wagner,  mayor) 

"*  «  *  If  if.(,  iffould  guide  hy  the  liglit  of  reason,  we  must  let  our 
minds  be  bold." — Louis  D.  Bkandeis. 

CiTT  OP  New  York, 
Office  op  the  Mayor, 
New  York,  N.  Y.,  May  6,  1955. 
Hon.  Robert  F.  Wagner, 

Mayor,  City  of  Neto  York, 

City  Hall,  New  York,  N.  Y. 

Dear  Mayor  Wagner  :  Attached  is  a  brief  report  on  tbe  coordination  of  new 
and  improved  programs  to  cope  with  the  problem  of  juvenile  delinquency  in  our 

It  has  only  been  possible  to  undertake  a  relatively  brief  study  in  this  field  to 
which  so  many  have  devoted  a  lifetime.  I  am,  however,  making  a  number  of 
suggestions  in  specific  areas  and  have  indicated  particular  problems  which  merit 
special  consideration  in  the  near  future.  I  hope,  for  example,  to  treat  the  whole 
matter  of  the  courts  and  correctional  institutions  at  some  length  in  another  report. 

The  only  expenditures  to  date  from  the  $25,000  budgeted  for  this  study  have 
been  4%  months'  salary  for  my  consultant  and  his  secretary,  plus  less  than  $100 
for  technical  literature,  supplies,  etc.  After  our  pi-inter's  bill  is  paid,  I  believe 
enough  money  will  remain  to  complete  the  report  mentioned  above  as  well  as 
one  on  services  for  infants  and  preschool  children. 

John  J.  Horwitz,  who  served  as  consultant  on  this  project,  was  responsible 
for  most  of  the  research  and  field  contacts.  He  also  is  to  be  commended  for 
writing  the  draft  of  this  report,  laying  it  out  and  seeing  it  through  the  press.  I 
wish  to  pay  particular  tribute  to  the  rich  background  Mr.  Horwitz  brought  to 
the  planning  of  this  project.  His  broad  social  science  skills  and  his  rich  experi- 
ence as  settlement  house  director,  psychiatric  caseworker,  and  community  or- 
ganization specialist  all  contributed  materially  to  the  coherent  overview  so  essen- 
tial in  a  study  of  this  sort. 

I  feel  deeply  indebted  to  former  deputy  city  administrator  .John  V.  Connorton 
for  his  invaluable  assistance  in  coordinating  the  committee  consultations  with 
private  social  agencies. 

Dr.  Luther  Gulick,  the  city  administrator,  offered  my  staff  office  space  and 
all  conceivable  cooperation.     His  friendly  interest  advanced  the  work  materially. 

E.special  thanks  are  dvie  my  colleagues  heading  up  various  city  departments 
and  agencies,  welfare  and  civic  leaders,  and  the  many  experts  on  various  aspects 
of  the  delinquency  problem  who  have  given  me  and  my  staff  the  benefit  of  their 
counsel.  Many  helpful  suggestions  have  also  been  received  from  scores  of  private 
citizens  who  have  passed  along  to  us  their  suggestions  as  to  the  causes  of  juvenile 
delinquency  or  measures  which  might  be  undertaken  to  cope  with  our  problem. 
The  cooperative  zeal  so  many  people  have  brought  to  this  effort  has  been  a  gratify- 
ing sign  of  the  vitality  of  civic  spirit  in  our  city.  The  fine  resolution  of  Council 
President  Abe  Stark,  for  example,  is  supported  in  the  expanded  youth  board 
projects  of  private  agencies.  I  might  add  that  the  tenor  of  a  number  of  letters 
received  from  young  people  themselves  has  been  a  great  source  of  encouragement. 

May  I  emphasize  in  recommending  the  programs  listed  below  that  none  are 
intended  to  substitute  for  ongoing  operations  in  the  same  fields,  nor  should  serv- 
ices be  taken  out  of  one  neighborhood  to  provide  for  another. 
Very  sincerely  yours, 

Henry  Epstein,  Deputy  Mayor. 



At  the  request  of  the  mayor,  I  have  during  the  past  8  months  made  a  fairly- 
extensive  review  of  the  scientific  literature  in  the  juvenile  delinquency  field, 
and  have  endeavored  to  inform  myself  on  current  developments  of  interest  in 
other  communities,  and  even  in  foreign  countries. 

Herewith  are  presented  certain  findings  of  fact  as  to  the  nature  of  the  chal- 
lenge and  programs  which  we  may  undertake  in  order  to  meet  it.  This  report 
is  designed  to  help  speed  planning,  and  to  inform  the  public  about  some  of  the 
problems  we  face.  In  addition,  in  appendix  V,  I  have  listed  some  important 
ways  each  and  every  citizen  can  help  tight  juvenile  delinquency. 

We  can  record  many  real  achievements  through  services  to  children.  But 
New  York  is  a  city  which  never  has  been  afraid  to  face  up  to  its  shortcoriiings. 
I  have  not  endeavored  to  produce  a  piece  of  promotion  material ;  attention  in  this 
report  is  focused  upon  many  areas  where  our  performance  is  less  than  perfect, 
sometimes  less  than  adequate. 

We  cannot  feel  satisfied  with  less  than  the  best,  especially  where  our  children 
are  concerned.  In  those  existing  programs  where  something  vital  may  be  want- 
ing, no  lack  of  conscientiousness  or  capacity  on  the  part  of  personnel  involved 
should  be  inferred.  Over  the  years,  there  may  have  been  many  reasons  why 
some  strategic  area  has  been  neglected.  In  a  city  as  large  as  ours,  it  may  also 
happen  that  a  service  eminently  worthwhile  in  years  past,  today  needs  to  be 
reconsidered  and  replanned. 

Our  task  is  one  to  be  accomplished  only  over  a  period  of  time.  Deliberations 
today  build  upon  work  that  has  gone'  before.  This  report  is  related  to  earlier 
studies :  and  a  number  of  important  matters  are  only  touched  uipon  here,  as  they 
will  be  covered  at  greater  length  in  other  reports. 

My  emphasis  throughout,  has  been  upon  employment  of  public  funds  through 
programs  in  public  agencies.  However,  there  are  areas  where  private  and  sec- 
tarian agencies  have  clearly  demonstrated  an  ability  to  provide  valuable  services 
of  a  supplementary  character,  when  public  moneys  are  placed  at  their  disposal. 
I  recommend  continuance  of  this  pattern,  along  already  well  established  lines, 
through  the  youth  board  contract  program  (see  appendix  II).  Nongovern- 
mental bodies  have  a  most  important  part  to  play  in  any  community  program. 
It  is  to  be  hoped  that  the  fund-raising  efforts  of  responsible  private  and  sec- 
tarian agencies  this  year  will  permit  the  ambitious  and  highly  laudable  pro- 
gram expansions  they  projected  in  our  joint  discussions. 

A  joint  policy  statement  of  private  and  sectarian  agencies  appears  here  as 
appendix  IV. 

Certain  highly  important  projects  (which  have  come  to  my  attention  from 
various  sources)  do  not  seem  appropriate  or  possible  enterprises  for  the  city 
government  to  undertake.  These  I  have  listed  in  appendix  III.  Should  civic 
groups,  service  organizations,  individual  philanthropists,  or  foundations  be  inter- 
ested in  details  on  any  of  these  undertakings,  my  staff  have  prepared  brief  out- 
lines of  possible  first  steps  on  each  of  them. 

I  do  wish,  however,  to  present  for  immediate  consideration  10  programs  I 
believe  should  be  acted  upon  without  delay.  You  will  find  here,  and  throughout 
my  report,  two  equally  important  emphases :  services  for  more  children  and 
more  effective  service  to  the  children  we  do  reach.  A  sound  approach  must  be 
rooted  in  these  foundations. 


Provision  of  competent  staff  for  recreational  facilities  already  available  in 
27  public-housing  projects  (for  residents  of  projects  and  their  neighbors)  ; 
planning  for  staff  in  all  the  other  projects  not  presently  served. 

Expansion  of  the  remedial  reading  program  in  our  schools  to  enable  children 
to  get  100-cent  value  on  the  education  dollar. 

Police  services  affecting  juvenile  delinquency. 

Expansion  of  the  youth  board  street  club  project  and  its  services  to  families 
and  children. 

Provision  of  programs  under  youth  board  contract  to  the  three  areas  in  Man- 
hattan, Staten  Island,  and  Queens  where  delinquency  rates  have  increased  alarm- 
ingly ;  contracts  for  casework,  group  work  and  recreation  services  from  private 
as  well  as  public  agencies. 

Reexamination  of  teacher  rotation  policies,  in  an  effort  to  assure  placement 
of  a  larger  proportion  of  our  more  highly  experienced  teachers  in  "difficult" 


Parent  education  programs  centered  around  informal  discussion  groups. 

Expansion  of  the  co-op  program  which  provides  students  an  opportunity  to 
complete  their  high  school  education  while  working  half  time  in  private  industry 
at  prevailing  wages ;  more  guidance  services. 

Inauguration  of  training  services  tlirough  the  youth  board  to  equip  its  own 
personnel  to  do  an  even  more  effective  job,  and  to  serve  other  departments  which 
have  approached  the  youth  board  for  this  kind  of  help;  a  fellowship  study 
program  for  adding  to  the  professional  skills  of  workers  on  key  projects  in  various 
citv  youth-serving  agencies. 

Provision  for  small,  toi>-caliber  units  to  do  overall  planning  and  to  be  respon- 
sible for  assessment. 

Before  detailing  the  value  of  the  10  programs  mentioned  above,  it  is  important 
that  some  general  considerations  be  clarified. 

May  I  remark  at  the  outset  tliat  juvenile  delinquency  is  neither  a  new  prob- 
lem nor  one  we  can  expect  to  meet  with  temporary  expedients. 

With  so  much  talk  of  juvenile  delinquency  in  the  air  and  scare  headlines  all 
too  frequently  in  the  press,  we  are  apt  to  forget  the  97  juveniles  in  100  who 
do  not  come  in  conflict  with  the  law. 

When  the  word  "teen-ager"  comes  up,  how  often  do  we  think  of  the  nation- 
wide science  talent  search,  in  which  our  students,  less  than  4  percent  of  the 
Nation's  high  school  population,  regularly  walk  off  with  20  percent  or  more  cf 
the  awards. 

How  loud  did  the  sirens  blow  when  a  teenager  in  or  town  a  year  ago  won 
first  prize  for  school-or-community  life  photographs  in  the  national  contest  with 
27,000  entries?  And  how  many  iieople  have  heard  about  the  youtli  group  here 
that  volunteers  regular  work  sessions  adding  to  a  library  for  the  blind  which 
houses  the  Nation's  largest  collection  of  hand-transcribed  books? 

Here  are  a  few  headlines  which  will  seem  more  familiar :  "Eleven-Year-Old 
Steals  Teacher's  Purse,"  "Bjys  Bind  and  Kob  Playmates,"  "Schoolgirls 
Sweethearts,  16  and  17,  Fight  a  Duel."  These  are  the  sort  that  have  always 
made  news.  But  here's  one  from  the  month  before :  "Legislator  Aids  Boy" — the 
story  is  about  Assemblyman  Robert  F.  Wagner,  who  volunteered  his  services  to 
defend  a  17-year-old  he  believed  wrongly  accused  of  shooting  his  employer.  The 
year,  for  all  those  stories,  1905,  exactly  50  years  ago. 

It  seems  to  me  we  would  do  well  to  lender  awhile  on  the  manner  in  which 
public  opinion  today  may  affect  law  enforcement  as  respects  juveniles.  It 
would  come  as  a  real  shock  to  hear  the  casual  suggestion  that  three  men  stand- 
ing on  the  corner  talking  ought  not  to  be  on  the  street,  but  change  the  men  to 
17-year-olds  and  it  would  almost  seem  they  had  lost  their  rights  as  citizens. 
Or  think  of  a  driver  who  has  run  through  a  red  light;  when  he  receives  Ms 
ticket,  we  think  of  him  as  a  traffic  violator,  not  a  criminal.  Let  the  driver  be 
a  youth,  however,  and  there's  a  buzz  of  voices  immediately  against  the  "juvenile 

This  may  seem  a  trival  consideration,  but  it  is  not  trival  to  one  who  feels  a 
door  has  l^een  slannned  in  his  face,  ^''ew  York  has  always  taken  pride  in  its. 
young  people :  we  have  always  felt  this  was  the  city,  of  all  cities,  that  opened 
wide  the  door  to  citizenship.  Yet  today  it  almost  seems  as  though  no  one  is  a 
citizen  until  he  has  attained  the  magical  age  of  21 ;  and  all  the  unfortunates 
who  must  wait  the  years  until  they  attain  that  enviable  distinction  are  high 
handedlv  placed  on  continuous  probation. 

We  cannot  have  it  both  ways :  Either  our  young  people  are  a  welcome  part 
of  the  New  York  community,  or  they  are  some  curious  alien  breed,  shut  out, 
marking  time  till  their  21st  birthday. 

We  in  the  city  administration  share  a  common  concern  with  the  community's 
religious  leaders.  There  is  a  need  tor  reawakening  our  young  people's  appre- 
ciation for  higher  values.  We  must  labor,  each  in  his  own  fashion,  to  open 
wide  a  door  to  the  world  of  satisfaction  through  social  responsibility. 

As  adults  we  would  do  well  to  reflect  upon  our  own  behavior  when  we  warn 
youth  against  false  values.  And  we  would  do  well  to  think  about  the  ways  we 
can  demonstrate,  on  a  day-to-day  basis,  that  the  good  life  is  really  a  reward- 
ing one. 

Much  has  been  made  of  the  unfortunate  impact  a  particular  type  of  publication 
is  making  upon  our  children  and  young  people.  It  seems  to  me  that  it  is  unjust 
to  focus  criticism  upon  a  single  influence  of  this  sort. 

We  live  in  times  of  world  conflict  and  the  threat  of  war.  Wherever  the  child 
turns  there  is  violence  and  talks  of  violence.  To  a  stranger  crime  and  sex  might 
almost  seem  the  sinister  preoccupations  of  our  people.     The  child  grows  up  in 


a  world  of  tension,  not  of  his  makinj;'.  Yet  97  children  in  100 — even  more  if  we 
confine  our  attention  to  the  delinquents  who  are  brought  to  court — make  a  "go" 
of  it  in  a  world  that  seems  pretty  confusing  even  to  sophisticated  adults. 

The  example  we  set  is  not  always  the  best.  There  have  been  reports  in  these 
I)ast  months  of  a  tax  authority  who  committed  suicide  while  under  indictment 
for  income-tax  evasion;  three  different  schoolteachers  (not  of  this  city)  who 
sought  si)ecial  consideration  when  arrested  for  driving  past  a  halted  school  bus; 
the  reader  can  add  examples  of  his  own.  We  have  our  Schweitzers  and  our 
Einsteins,  our  Helen  Kellers,  and  our  Marion  Andersons,  true.  But  it  is  well 
to  dwell  a  moment  upon  the  observation  of  the  director  of  one  of  our  better 
juvenile  institutions  "adults  deceive  each  other  and  children  deceive  the  adults." 

Our  Nation  takes  pi'ide  in  the  fact  that  our  press,  lilms,  radio,  television,  etc., 
are  not  under  Government  control.  Private  initiative  in  the  great  media  of 
information  has  demonstrated  time  and  again  that  it  can  make  a  responsible 
social  contribution  in  periods  of  crisis.  These  times  cryingly  demand  imagina- 
tion and  leadership  from  those  eiltrusted  with  the  media.  I  believe  there  are 
many  who  have  already  perceived  the  challenge  and  are  moving  forward  as 
responsible  citizens.  The  task  of  glamorizing  socially  constructive  activities — of 
better  informing  the  public  as  to  the  nature  of  juvenile  delinquency — is  a  great 
one.  To  reacli  beyond  the  glorification  of  crime  and  the  confusion  of  moral 
values  must  be  more  than  an  aspiration — we  look  to  the  industry  for  positive 


In  reviewing  studies  of  the  juvenile  delinquency  problem,  probably  the  clear- 
est picture  that  emerges  is  the  difficulties  commonly  inherent  in  the  home 
situation.  Now  in  commenting  upon  juvenile  delinquency,  it  must  be  remem- 
bered that  our  information  pertains  almost  exclusively  to  youngsters  who  have 
been  apprehended  and  appear  for  disposition  before  public  authority.  Further- 
more, in  pointing  up  the  shortcomings  of  the  family  setting  in  which  so  many 
of  these  young  offenders  have  been  reared,  we  are  often  uninformed  as  to  the 
number  of  children  who,  confronted  by  identical  handicaps,  have  made  "go"  of 
social  living. 

Withal,  there  appears  to  be  a  consistent  pattern  of  deprivation,  which  I  believe 
any  fair-minded  person  would  agree  creates  a  real  hazard  to  the  growing  child. 

There  are  social  handicaps  which  exert  a  real  pressure  upon  youngsters  from 
underprivileged  neighl)orhoods ;  overcrowded,  unhealthy  tenement  living,  dis- 
crimination, grinding  poverty,  lack  of  recreation  facilities,  an  atmosphere  of 
crime  in  the  very  air  they  breathe.  But  as  Prof.  Gordon  Allport,  of  Harvard 
University,  has  observed  (175,  introduction),  it  is  the  emotional  tone  of  the 
home,  not  the  plumbing,  that  is  likely  to  prove  a  decisive  determinant  of  juve- 
nile delinquency. 

We  may  be  on  the  threshold  of  a  greater  understanding  of  the  nature  of  this 
disorder.  Prof.  Sheldon  Glueck  and  Dr.  Eleanor  Glueck  believe  they  have  de- 
veloped a  technique  for  recognizing,  by  the  characteristics  of  family  psychology, 
just  which  children  are  growing  up  in  the  most  hazardous  surroundings.  If 
their  predictive  measures  prove  reliable,  we  could  ascertain  in  advance  pre- 
cisely which  children  (and  which  families)  are  in  need  of  preventive  services — 
before  serious  trouble  ever  develops. 

Many  delinquent  children  have  parents  who  can  truly  be  said  to  poison  the 
atmosphere  of  the  home.  Marital  conflict  between  the  parents  is  common,  indeed 
one  autliority  suggests  that  tensions  in  a  home  where  the  parents  are  deeply 
dissatisfied  with  one  another  are  more  injurious  to  children  than  a  broken  home 
would  be  (28).  But  studies  of  comparable  groups  of  children  have  shown  there 
are  close  to  twice  as  many  from  broken  homes  in  the  delinquent  as  in  the 
nondelinquent  group  (28).  The  Gluecks'  recent  research  found  I  delinquent 
in  4  came  from  families  where  self-interest  exceeded  group  interest ;  this  was 
true  of  less  than  1  in  100  children  in  their  nondelinquent  control  group  (67). 

Children  who  turn  up  as  delinquents  are  also  more  likely  to  have  been  set  a 
criminal  example  at  home.  The  study  mentioned  above,  showed  delinquents 
twice  as  likely  as  nondelinquents  to  have  had  a  father,  brothei*,  or  sister  already 
in  conflict  with  the  law — and  three  times  as  likely  to  have  had  a  mother  with  a 
criminal  record  (67).  Another  researcher  reporting  on  youths  discharged  from 
a  truant  school  but  subsequently  charged  with  felonies,  found  4  out  of  5  were 
reared  in  families  in  which  another  member  had  a  criminal  record  (28). 

Parents'  attitudes  toward  children,  and  children's  conceptions  of  their  parents 
differ  significantly  in  comparable  groups  of  delinquents  and  nondelinquents. 


The  Gluecks  report  60  percent  of  their  delinquents  felt  their  fathers  were  indif- 
ferent or  hostile;  this  was  true  of  only  1  in  5  among  the  nondelinquents  (226). 

Delinquent*  felt  their  mothers  were  not  deeply  concerned  about  their  welfare 
in  8  cases  out  of  10;  only  3  mothers  out  of  10  among  the  nondelinquents  (226). 
Of  the  groups  studied,  one-fifth  of  the  luothers  worked,  mothers  of  delinquents 
as  well  as  mothers  of  nondelinquents.  Nevertheless  while  7  mothers  of  delin- 
quents in  10  were  found  giving  "wholly  unsuitable"  supervision  to  their  sons, 
among  the  nonedlinquent  boys,^  only  1  mother  in  10  failed  in  this  resi^ect  (226). 

I  do  not  wish  to  bog  down  in  statistics,  but  mention  ought  to  be  made  of 
one  more  highly  illuminating  inquiry.  Close  to  20  years  ago  a  volume  was 
published  examining  the  differences  between  delinquents  and  nondelinquent 
youngsters  reared  in  the  same  houses  and  families.  Healy  and  Bronner  (86) 
reported  that  the  nondelinquents  found  home  relationships  more  satisfying 
than  delinquents  in  the  same  family  did.  And  seven  times  as  many  delin- 
quent children  were  found  to  have  had  emotional  disturbances  in  their  relations 
with  others,  mostly  in  the  home.  The  delinquents  were  unhappy,  discontented 
youngsters,  shortchanged  in  some  fashion  as  compared  with  their  own  non- 
delinquent  brothers  and  sisters. 

The  same  story  is  repeated  by  child-guidance  workers,  police,  probation  officers, 
social  workers,  teachers,  pastors.  The  child  who  becomes  a  delinquent  is  more 
likely  than  not  to  come  from  a  home  where  he  is  neglected,  rejected,  or  subject 
to  harsh  and  even  unjust  punishment.  In  a  large  proportion  of  eases,  one 
parent  is  missing ;  and  when  both  parents  are  in  the  home,  in  case  after  case 
it  has  been  found  the  child  is  suffering  because  of  continual  bickering  or  open 
violence  between  father  and  mother. 

In  situations  such  as  these,  and  where  parental  discipline  is  irregular  or 
completely  neglected,  the  child  will  tend  to  strike  out  for  himself.  And  there 
is  every  likelihood  he  will  strike  out  in  the  wrong  direction. 

It  is  only  with  the  very  greatest  rarity  that  a  thorough  examination  of  the  life 
history  of  a  detected  delinquent  will  fail  to  uncover  pressures  (psychological 
or  social)   which  may  reasonably  be  regarded  as  the  roots  of  maladjustment. 

In  our  understanding  of  particular  situations,  there  is  undoubtedly  a  certain 
gap  between  the  commonly  accepted  causative  factors  and  delinquent  acts  on 
the  part  of  an  individual.  Nonetheless,  certain  social  situations  can  with  con- 
siderable assurance  be  said  to  constitute  fertile  soil  for  delinquency. 

To  recapitulate,  these  are :  rejection,  tyranny,  abuse,  frustration,  failure, 
limitation  of  opportunity,  conflict  of  cultures. 

A  child  can  grow  into  a  socially  integrated  adult  even  in  a  home  where 
a  brother  or  sister  is  shown  preference.  A  child  can  grow  into  a  socially  inte- 
grated adult  even  though  deprived  of  a  parent's  love.  A  child  can  grow  into  a 
socially  integrated  adult  despite  discrimination  by  reason  of  race.  A  child  can 
grow  into  a  socially  integrated  adult  despite  slum  environment  with  all  its 
deprivations.  Even  a  child  who  is  brutally  abused,  or  punished  unjustly  can  grow 
into  a  socially  integrated  adult. 

It  is  most  important  that  these  facts  not  be  ignored.  But  we  do  know  that 
a  cumulation  of  deprivation  and  destructive  experiences  leaves  a  mark.  The  child 
reared  under  such  conditions  is  in  hazard ;  where  the  negative  forces  multiply, 
the  hazard  is  increased. 

Frequent  mention  will  be  made  in  this  report  of  the  situation  of  children  and 
youth  in  deteriorated  or  deteriorating  neighborhoods.  Let  it  be  clearly  under- 
stood at  the  outset  that  delinquents  are  found  in  families  more  fortunately 
circumstanced  as  well. 

It  is  a  fact  that  the  larger  part  of  our  juvenile  court  cases  come  from  among 
the  poorest  segment  of  the  city's  population.  It  seems  most  likely  that  this  is 
due  to  lack  of  home  and  neighborhood  advantages  (material,  social,  and 
phychological).  But  another  consideration  is  fashions  in  delinquent  behavior, 
which  may  have  the  outcome  of  more  crimes  of  a  violent  character,  say,  in  one 
sort  of  neighborhood  and  more  crimes  of  stealth  in  another.  Finally,  there  are 
the  very  important  differentials  in  financial  ability  of  parents  to  make  private 
arrangements  for  the  care  and  treatment  of  problem  youngsters. 

Ours  is  a  Nation  dedicated  to  the  proposition  that  all  people  should  be  accorded 
an  equal  opportunity  to  make  their  way  in  the  world,  that  a  man  should  be  judged 
on  his  merits.    Reflect  upon  the  measure  of  our  failure  if  I  report  that  an  out- 

-  Juvenile  court  records  list  3  or  4  times  as  many  boys  as  girls,  however  girls'  social 
histories  reflect  similar  problems.  In  my  own  repeat,  "boys,"  in  most  instances  may  also 
be  read  "children." 


standing  scholar  in  the  field  contends  that  "the  permanent  factor  which  perhaps 
contributes  more  than  any  other  to  the  creation  of  delinquency  (is)  bad  housing." 
As  it  happens,  our  achievements  in  this  field  and  the  nature  of  the  road 
ahead  lie  beyond  the  province  of  this  report.  But  I  would  like  to  add  one 
more  homely  example  of  the  kind  of  environmental  pressures  affecting  children  in 
New  York,  195.5.  A  well-informed  ofiicial*  estimates  on  the  basis  of  reported 
cases  that  in  our  city  some  25,000  human  beings — mostly  babies— are  bitten  by 
rats  every  year.  It  is  hardly  nece^^jary  to  ask  oneself  how  such  an  occurrence 
affects  the  outlook  on  life  of  the  victim — and  his  family. 

Perhaps  one  final  note  on  environmental  deprivations  will  suflice.  This  story 
is  told  by  a  social  worker  who  has  a  most  distinguished  record  of  service  over 
the  decades  in  some  of  our  more  underprivileged  neighborhoods : 

"(There  are  neighborhoods  characterized  by)  acceptance  of  the  inevitability 
of  adult  crime,  juvenile  delinquency  *  *  *  racial  tensions,  gang  warfare  *  *  *. 
In  such  a  neighborhood  I  was  told  by  a  15-year-old  boy  who  had  just  stabbed' 
another  boy  with  a  penknife,  that  'you  could  get  a  good  paid  job  sticking  people 
if  you  got  good  at  it.'  That  was  25  years  ago,  and  that  neighborhood  is  worse 
today,  not  better.  The  bootleggers  of  prohibition  have  given  way  to  the  narcotics 


In  devising  programs  to  meet  the  challenge  of  juvenile  delinquency,  we  are 
confronted  with  a  major  dilemma  of  approach  at  the  outset.  Many  would 
subscribe  to  the  philosophy  of  a  social  agency  which  has  been  notably  successful 
in  its  work  with  every  sort  of  delinquent  over  a  period  of  more  than  50  years : 

"llie  delinquent  (is)  primarily  a  products  of  social  forces,  of  disorganized 
homes  and  unhealthy  neighborhood  conditions.  He  is  in  the  main  a  deprived 
youngster  whose  emotional  needs  have  been  insufficiently  satisfied.  His  be- 
havior is  a  reaction  to  his  life  experience." 

Others  contend  that  a  crime  is  a  crime  and  that  anyone  not  a  mental  incom- 
petent should  l)e  made  to  answer  for  his  actions.  They  contend  that  a  "senti- 
mental" approach  is  interpreted  as  weakness  on  the  part  of  society,  that  punish- 
ment is  the  sure  deterrent. 

But  the  facts  simply  do  not  support  this  latter  view. 

"*  *  *  in  all  the  reliable  20th  century  studies  on  the  causation  of  delinquency 
and  crime,  it  is  almost  impossible  to  find  a  reference  to  leniency  of  punishment 
as  a  cause.  *  *  *  The  history  of  punishment  shows  that  there  is  no  necessary 
correlation  between  the  severity  of  punishment  and  the  incidence  of 
crime.  *  *  *" 

There  would  seem  to  be  a  need  to  steer  a  sure  course  between  what  most 
thoughtful  citizens  might  characterize  as  the  "sentimental"  and  the  "revenge" 
approaches  to  this  question.  Mr.  Justice  Cardozo  many  years  ago  observed 
that  the  justice  due  the  ofiender  is  due  the  community  as  well.  Law  is  the 
adhesive  that  binds  our  society  together ;  it  is  not  to  be  violated  lightly. 

Actually,  the  most  "moderate"  of  the  experts  in  the  field  seem  to  feel  that 
punishment  can  play  a  constructive  role  in  rehabilitation,  if  it  is  applied  plan- 
fully  and  for  helpful  rather  than  vengeful  purposes.  Unfortunately,  many 
people  believe  that  juvenile  delinquency  is  tlie  evil  fruit  of  a  "spare  the  rod" 
philosophy.  There  certainly  can  be  no  doubt  that  there  are  children  who,  as  a 
result  of  having  been  spoiled,  are  completely  regardless  of  the  rights  of  others. 
A  larger  group  of  juvenile  delinquents,  however,  and  a  group  more  typical  of 
these  problem  youngsters  by  and  large,  have  experienced  punishment— and  cor- 
poral punishment  at  that.  They  have  probably  had  too  much  such  treatment 
ratber  than  too  little. 

Recent  studies  show  that  one-fifth  to  one-third  of  all  our  nondelinquent  children 
and  young  people  experience  physical  punishment  at  home.  A  study  of  delin- 
quent children  on  the  other  hand,  shows  twice  as  many  receiving  physical  punish- 
ment. The  superintendent  of  a  midwestern  reform  school  remarked  to  a 
visiting  journalist  that  he  used  the  pnddle  because  90  percent  of  his  boys  reported 
they'd  been  whipped  at  home.  And  the  reporter^  very  acutely  observed  that 
"apparently  whipping  failed  to  act  as  a  deterrent  for  90  percent  of  the  boys  who 
ended  up  in  this  institution.  It  seems  to  me  that  there  is  a  lesson  here  to  reflect 
upon  as  we  proceed  with  our  planning. 

s  C'larles  Abrams. 
*  Albert  Deutsch. 


In  my  own  thinking,  I  would  be  inclined  to  go  along  with  the  joint  public- 
private  service  bureau  which  operates  in  the  offices  of  our  district  attorneys. 
This  organization  contends  that  even  youthful  offenders  should  not  be  regarded  as 
completely  helpless  victims  of  social  forces.  The  offender  has  played  an  im- 
portant part  in  whatever  train  of  events  has  culminated  in  his  conflict  with  the 
law.  And  he  has  a  part  to  play— in  a  very  real  sense,  an  independent  part — in 
the  process  of  finding  a  constructive  place  for  himself  in  the  world. 

"Nobody  can  mold  anybody  else's  character  because  a  human  is  not  a  lump 
of  putty.  He  is  a  living' being— he  grows  *  *  *.  The  impulses  which  may  have 
taken  a  vicious  form  and  brought  boys  into  conflict  with  authority  are  basically 
the  energies  of  life.  It  is  within  the  realm  of  the  possible  to  redirect  these 
energies  so  that  they  will  no  longer  destroy  but  instead  serve  the  better  interests 
of  (young  people)  and  of  society  *  *  *.  (This  redirection)  is  an  achievement  of 
the  youth  himself.  His  counsellors  help  by  making  his  problem  clearer  to  him, 
by  encouragement  and  suggestion.  But  when  the  change  takes  place,  it  is  the 
individual  concerned  who  makes  the  effort." 

Before  proceeding  to  discussion  of  the  particular  programs  I  have  suggested  for 
high-priority  consideration,  a  few  more  general  observations  may  not  be  out  of 


While  I  shall  not  discuss  the  matter  at  length  in  this  report,  the  problem 
of  repeated  delinquency,  unreformed  offenders,  is  a  crucial  one.  When  a  wrong- 
doer is  caught,  society  has  an  opportunity — in  cases  where  he  is  not  executed  or 
imprisoned  for  life — to  set  him  on  the  right  path.  The  ultimate  test  of  cor- 
rectionel  institutions  is  the  recidivism  rate;  do  offenders  reform,  or  does  the 
correctional  treatment  leave  them  uncorrected. 

There  is  beginning  to  be  a  highly  illuminating  body  of  literature  in  answer 
to  that  question.  And  some  people  may  be  surprised  to  learn  that  in  study 
after  study  of  juvenile  delinquents,  it  is  the  institutions  with  the  social  workers, 
the  psychologists,  the  special  teachers — the  institutions  that  talk  about  "trying 
to  understand  and  help  each  boy" — it  is  these  institutions  that  prove  to  have 
the  smaller  proportion  of  children  reappearing  in  our  courts  and  police  stations. 

Nationwide  studies,  studies  in  Chicago  and  in  Boston,  show  that  6  de- 
linquents in  10  (in  some  places  more),  turn  up  again,  following  institutionali- 
zation. But  2  really  treatment-oriented  centers  here  in  New  York  report  less 
than  3  in  10  of  their  boys  turn  up  in  court  after  being  released.  Dr. 
Frank  Curran  (who  served  the  New  York  City  children's  courts  as  a  psychiatrist 
at  Bellevue  Hospital)  reports  that  of  his  first  .300  juvenile  cases  there,^  only 
1  in  10  had  reappeared  in  the  courts  for  antisocial  acts,  11/2  to  2  years  later. 

In  the  case  of  those  who  have  to  be  removed  from  circulation  for  a  period, 
the  case  seems  clear.  Our  interest  is  cutting  down  on  delinquent  behavior  for 
the  sake  of  the  community,  and  with  an  eye  to  a  useful,  satisfying,  socially 
accepted  life  for  the  adjudged  delinquent.  If  our  interest  in  short  is  rehabilita- 
tion rather  than  vengeance  we  are  now  in  a  position  to  say  that  reeducation 
must  go  on  alongside  the  temporary  loss  of  liberty  that  the  offender  must  not 
merely  be  punished  but  counseled  and  helped.  Of  "correction"  and  correctional 
institutions  it  is  truly  possible  to  say  "by  their  fruits  ye  shall  know  them." 

A  "hard  core"  of  juvenile  delinquency? 

Our  city  is  growing;  there  is  an  ever  larger  crop  of  youngsters  entering  the 
delinquency-hazard  age  bracket,  5-20  years.* 

In  19.50  one-fifth  of  our  population  fell  into  this  age  group.  But  by  1960, 
with  the  war  babies  and  the  postwar  babies  growing  up,  1  New  Yorker  in  every 
4  will  be  between  5  and  20.' 

If  juvenile  delinquency  is  a  problem  now,  we  really  have  something  to  insure 
against,  with  regard  to  the  future.  For  if  the  delinquency  rate  were  to  stop 
rising,  if  we  could  merely  hold  our  own,  the  number  of  delinquents  in  the  larger 
youth  population — at  the  present  delinquency  rate  (roughly  2i^  i)ercent) — would 
by  1960  stand  9,000  higher  than  the  present  figure. 

^  Tn  85  percent  of  which,  the  courts  concurred  with  psychiatric  counsel. 

«  If  5  seems  a  tender  age  to  list  as  the  lower  limit.  I  misht  mention  the  fact  that  in  the 
Gluecks  research,  more  than  44  percent  of  their  500  delinquents  displayed  clear  signs  of 
antisocial  behavior  between  the  ages  of  5  and  7. 

'  City  Planning  Commission  estimates. 


A  possibly  fruitful  line  of  inquiry  in  determining  just  where  preventive 
services  miglit  most  suitably  be  directed,  is  suggested  by  two  recent  studies  in 
St.  Paul,  Minn,  and  in  San  Mateo  County  (around  San  P^raucisco).  This 
research  concentrated  on  the  proportion  of  social  problems  presented  by  a 
relatively  small  number  of  families  in  each  community.  The  San  Mateo  report, 
for  example,  reported  that  1,2G7  families,  only  IVa  percent  of  the  total  number, 
accounted  for  every  (detected  and  reported)  case  of  juvenile  misbehavior  as  well 
as  about  half  of  the  petty  crimes  and  misdemeanors  in  the  whole  community. 
Findings  along  the  same  lines  are  reported  by  parallel  welfare  research  projects 
in  Maryland  and  Minnesota. 

If  our  own  youth-board  data  are  analyzed  along  roughly  the  same  lines, 
focussing  upon  the  relatively  small  number  of  delinquents  who  appear  on  the 
register  more  than  once,  a  figure  for  New  York  of  the  same  order  of  magnitude 
is  suggested.  The  hard  core  of  the  juvenile  delinquency  problem  may  well 
be  found  in  just  a  few  thousand  families  here,  out  of  a  total  of  close  to  a 
million  families  with  children  aged  5  to  20. 

A  study  of  the  actual  dimensions  of  this  small  but  crucial  aspect  of  the 
problem  may  open  the  way  to  new  approaches  to  the  challenge  of  delinquency. 
The  idea  certainly  seems  worthy  of  the  most  serious  consideration  in  our 
overall  planning.  But  it  must  be  well  understood  that  working  with  the  seg- 
ment of  the  population  considered  here  means  working  with  those  presenting 
the  thorniest  problems :  people  often  demoralized,  hopeless,  long  and  deeply 
entangled  in  a  multitude  of  social  problems,  people  often  suspicious  and  hostile 
toward  both  officials  and  social  agencies.  These  are  the  uncooperative,  the 
unresponsive,  the  cases  with  poor  prospects.  But  they  are  people  who  badly 
need  help,  and  people  who  present  a  formidable  problem  to  the  community 
at  large,  draining  resources  from  a  variety  of  channels  both  as  criminals  and 
as  chronic  dependents.  The  particular  group  to  which  I  refer  includes  families 
known  at  one  time  or  another  to  a  very  large  number  of  welfare  agencies.  It 
cannot  in  any  sense  be  regarded  as  identical  with  the  welfare  department 
caseload,  the  overwhelming  majority  of  whom  are  good  citizens  dependent 
through  no  fault  of  their  own. 


In  c(msidering  which  programs  we  should  underwrite,  there  is  an  important 
word  to  be  said  about  conserving  public  funds.  For  one  thing,  our  endeavor 
should  be  to  channel  what  money  we  do  have  into  programs  where  the  largest 
possible  proportion  of  it  gets  to  the  firing  line. 

We  should,  however,  be  prepared  to  reexamine  oi)erations  that  seem  promis- 
ing, after  a  time  has  passed.  Careful  assessment  and  factfinding  programs 
should  he  built  into  our  various  activities  in  this  area,  as  we  embark  upon 
them.'  This  is  a  task  calling  for  scientific  know-how,  it  cannot  be  adequately 
handled  by  mei-e  administrative  procedure.  I  am  therefore  recommending  an 
overall  coordinated  study  project  in  addition  to  factfinding  in  particular  agencies. 

To  undertake  a  course  of  action  without  a  positive  knowledge  that  it  will 
succeed  is  unfortunately  a  not-uncommon  necessity.  In  our  present  situation 
we  cannot  mark  time.  But  to  muddle  along  indefinitely  without  even  trying 
to  ascertain  whether  we  were  moving  in  the  direction  of  a  solution,  would  be 
unpardonable.  "Practice  cannot  and  should  not  wait  upon  research,  nor  should 
research  be  delayed  until  practice  is  well  established.  We  shall  be  most  likely 
to  discover  how  to  prevent  delinquency  if  research  is  undertaken  coordinately 
with  the  development  of  new  measures  and  the  refinement  of  old  ones,  if  research 
and  practice  are  conceived  as  inseparable  parts  of  a  single  process." 


A  thorough-going  preventive  program  that  would  attack  juvenile  delinquency 
at  the  most  basic  level  might  include  operations  liaving  to  do  with  housing, 
employment,  family  living  .standards,  social  discrimination.  And  even  the  most 
ambitious  program,  we  must  realize,  can  be  expected  rather  to  diminish  delin- 
quency than  to  abolish  it.  We  are  no  more  likely  completely  to  prevent  delin- 
quency than  we  are  to  abolish  adult  crime. 

^  Notp  in  this  conneotlon  the  youth  hoard's  research  project  to  find  out  whether  we  can 
spot  delinquents  before  they  get  into  trouble,  and  how  effective  our  help  proves  to  be. 
This  Is  a  follow-up  on  tlie  Ghiecks'  study  mentioned  above. 



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In  presenting  these  priority  programs,  then,  I  am  proposing  merely  a  munber 
of  rehitively  small-scale  projects,  designed  to  meet  the  challenge  in  some  very 
different  ways.  AH  seem  to  be  pointed  in  a  promising  direction ;  in  a  sense,  each 
program  stands  on  its  own,  but  in  another  sense,  they  are  complementary. 

These  approaches  are  among  tlie  more  promising  at  the  present  stage  of  our 
knowledge.  I  present  them  in  a  tirm  belief  they  have  the  greatest  likelihood 
of  success.    But  even  those  that  seem  the  most  sensible  offer  no  gilt-edge  guai-anty. 

For  example,  I  am  endorsing  recreation  programs  through  oiir  public  hoiising 
autliority,  in  the  imblic  scools,  through  the  youth  board  (private  agency  contracts, 
etc.).  I  have  endorsed  these  three  programs  in  the  belief  they  will  offer  indis- 
pensible  services  to  large  numbers  of  youngsters  who  might  otherwise  have  to  do 

But  we  cannot  depend  upon  recreation  alone  to  do  the  job.  Despite  our  best 
wishes,  tliere  are  complications:  (1)  Children  can  participate  at  length  in  the 
the  best  of  recreation  programs,  yet  have  plenty  of  time  in  odd  hours  to  get 
into  mischief,  if  they're  so  inclined;  (2)  recreation  programs  can  reach  half  the 
children,  tlii'ee-quarters  of  the  cldldren  in  a  neighborhood,  yet  fail  to  include 
precisely  the  ones  who  arc  headed  for  trouble.  I  can  recall  one  authority 
remarking  ujon  the  fact  that  he  never  liad  known  a  member  of  a  particular 
youth  organization  to  have  turned  up  as  a  delinquent.  Now,  he  meant  to  call 
attention  to  the  value  of  the  organization  in  preventing  delinquency,  but  he 
may  actually  have  only  pointed  out  that  the  organization  simply  failed  to  reach 
the  kind  of  boy  wlio  got  into  trouble. 

I  have  digressed  to  point  out  the  possible  weaknesses  of  a  kind  of  program  in 
which  I  really  have  great  faith.  My  intention  was  not  a  confuse  the  issue  but 
to  liring  to  the  reader's  attention  the  very  imprecise  state  of  our  knowledge  as  to 
what  may  really  sei-ve  to  cut  down  on  delinquency.  Every  one  of  the  10  priority 
programs  detailed  in  the  following  pages  has  already  been  well  tried  in  the  field 
and  seems  to  be  meeting  a  vital  need.  1  am  convinced  that  neither  parent 
education,  nor  club  work,  nor  school  jirograms,  nor  youth  police  alone  can  solve 
our  problem.  Together,  however,  they  piece  our  a  fairly  inclusive  pattern  of 
attack  upon  the  variety  of  anti-social  acts  we  call  juvenile  delinquency. 

Recreation  and  community  programs  in  piiMic  liousinfj 

Some  78,000  child  live  in  only  27  of  New  York's  public  housing  projects. 
In  order  to  provide  for  full  utilization  of  existing  community  recreation  facilities 
in  these  buildings,  I  have  recommended  adoption  of  a  $20o  513  per  annum  staff- 
ing program  developed  with  the  collaboration  of  Chairman  Philip  Cruise  of  the 
housing  authority.    This,  I  am  happy  to  say,  was  appropriated  March  25,  1955. 

Six  facilities  will  be  operated  as  extensions  of  settlement  house  programs, 
two  by  the  authority  itself,  19  by  the  bureau  of  community  education  of  our 
public  schools. 

Asked  for  his  reaction  to  this  proposal,  Professor  Sheldon  Glueck  of  the 
Harvard  Law  School,  regarded  my  many  as  probably  the  foremost  authority 
on  juvenile  delinquency  wrote: 

"I  think  you  are  definitely  working  in  the  right  direction.  My  only  suggestion 
as  to  the  budget  request  is  that  perhaps  it  would  point  out  that  the  proposed 
community  facilities  cou'd  be  of  value  not  only  for  the  children,  but  for  the 
parents.  One  of  the  basic  differences  between  delinquents  and  nondelinquents 
is  the  relative  infrequency  with  which  the  families  of  the  former  engage  in 
group  recreation.  The  provision  of  leadership  for  the  proposed  community 
centers  should  stimulate  the  restoration  of  a  long  lost  and  highly  social  value — ■ 
family-group  recreational  activities  both  in  and  out  of  the  centers. 

Another  suggestion  that  might  strengthen  the  appeal  of  the  budget  requests 
would  be  that  the  proposed  community  centers  might  also  be  used  as  places 
where  troubled  parents  could  go  for  consultations  and  guidance  regarding 
the  emotional  and  behavioral  problems  of  children.  It  could  be  provided,  in 
collaboration  with  child  guidance  clinics,  to  have  such  consultation  services 
supplied  once  or  twice  a  week  at  the  centers." 

These  additional  facilities  will  be  made  available  as  fast  as  this  program  can 
be  put  into  operation.  It  should  be  noted  that  the  cost  of  year-round  program 
in  these  centers  all  over  the  city,  serving  191,400  of  our  citizens  (78,000  of  them 
children)  "  is  relatively  insignificant,  in  view  of  the  kind  of  job  we  know  can 
be  done  by  skilled  leaders.    These  services  (housed  in  already  available  plant) 

®  To  these  should  be  added  those  served  in  the  surrounding  neighborhood. 
65263—55 2 




▲  sTArrcD  BY  BUREAU  or 

^     STAFfED    BY    PRIVATE    AGE 






Avill  cost  the  city  no  more  than  the  operating  expense  of  a  single  large-scale 
tacility  which  would  hardly  he  in  a  position  to  provide  for  so  large  a  number. 

This  program,  a  beginning,  should  be  folhnved  by  like  programs  in  other  public 
housing  projects  on  a  selective  neighborhood  need  basis.  Provision  of  staffs  for 
middle-income  projects,  for  example,  is  presently  under  consideration. 

Remedial  readbuj 

Reading  retardation  is  one  of  the  special  handicaps  often  associated  with 
juvenile  delinquency.  The  retarded  reader  is  unable  to  meet  other  children  on 
equal  terms  since  he  is  materially  handicapped  in  the  area  of  activity  that  con- 
sumes the  largest  single  block  of  his  waking  hours.  As  he  moves  into  the  higher 
grades  ability  to  read  becomes  essential  to  any  other  kind  of  learning — text- 
books and  other  printed  material  become  the  major  tool. 

The  child  who  can't  make  a  "go"  of  things  in  school  gets  more  and  more  Into  a 
rut  of  failure  and  frustration.  He  becomes  insecure,  hostile,  rebellious.  A  mid- 
western  school  official  writes : 

"As  to  the  question  of  relationship  between  reading  disability  and  what  is 
<'alled  juvenile  delinquency,  there  is  no  question  in  my  mind.  When  children 
are  required  to  perform  with  textbooks  for  5  hours  of  the  day,  they  have  to  be 
at  least  moderately  successful.  When  they  are  not,  the  tension  and  strain  of 
fruitless  effort,  aggravated  by  the  censure  of  the  school,  becomes  intolerable  and 
the  kids  will  compensate.  They  may  do  so  by  heaving  rocks  through  windows 
or  punching  other  kids,  but  when  these  outlets  pale  they  have  to  move  on  to 
more  spectacular  and  undesirable  behavior  *  *  *  Problem  children  who  have 
been  given  reading  skills  generally  cease  to  be  behavior  problems  when  they  are 
released  from  the  clinics." 

The  bureau  of  child  guidance  in  our  own  public-school  system  estimates  that : 

"Two-thirds  of  the  children  referred  (for  problems  of  various  sorts)  show 
some  degree  of  retardation  in  reading  *  *  *  fully  one-fifth  show  a  severe  reading 
handicap  *  *  *  It  is  highly  probable  that  the  proportion  of  children  with  read- 
ing handicaps  among  *  *  *  truants  and  delinquents  would  prove  to  be  higher 
than  20  percent  *  *  *  systematized  individual  and  small-group  instruction  for 
these  children  often  overcomes  this  handicap  and  reestablishes  a  degree  of  con- 
fidence in  themselves  which  can  do  much  to  facilitate  their  readjustment." 

The  board  of  education  personnel  who  know  this  field  agree  that :  "failure  in 
reading  accounts  more  than  any  other  single  factor  for  behavior  problems, 
truancy,  and  general  school  failure." 

Chief  Justice  John  Warren  Hill  of  our  children's  court  contends :  "It 
has  been  shown  conclusively  that  there  is  a  definite  link  between  *  •  *  reading- 
retardation  and  delinquency."  Reading  difficulties  were  reported  for  75  percent 
of  the  delin(iuents  in  the  nonschool  part  of  children's  court;  of  the  boys  in 
detention  at  Youth  House,  85  i>ercent  are  handicapped  by  being  unable  to  read 
books  appropriate  to  their  grade  in  school.^" 

This  is  no  small  scale  challenge.  As  of  4  years  ago,  35  percent  of  our  students 
entering  academic  high  schools  and  80  percent  of  those  entering  vocational  high 
schools  were  a  year  or  more  retarded  in  reading  (joint  State-city  study). 

In  June  1954,  20,000  New  York  City  children,  from  the  fourth  to  the  sixth  grade 
alone,  showed  a  reading  retardation  of  2  years  or  more. 

More  than  half  of  55,000  New  York  City  eighth  graders  examined  a  few  years 
ago  were  below  grade  in  reading  ability,  and  1  in  5  failed  even  to  score  at  sixth 
grade  level. 

Our  public  schools  are  presently  providing  "remedial  reading  teachers"  for 
less  than  20  percent  of  the  children  who  are  handicapped  by  major  reading  dis- 
abilities. Four  children  in  five  have  to  "make  do"  with  regular  classroom  re- 

Only  137  of  553  grade  schools  have  a  "remedial  reading  teacher."  There  is 
no  developed  program,  centrally  staffed  for  the  junior  high  schools.  Any  remedial 
reading  work  in  the  high  school  is  strictly  on  the  initiative  of  the  individual 

In  grade  schools  the  "remedial  reading  teachers"  (who  have  helped  many 
children  and  are  a  source  of  valuable  coutfsel  to  other  teachers)  are  almost  all 
regular   classroom   i)ersonnel   who   have  had   2   weeks  of  in-service   training." 

'"Tills  compjucs  with  Traxlor's  study  indicatiii!.'  only  10  percent  of  the  Nation's  .school 
population  reqnirps  wppcial  help  because  of  retardation  In  readlnjr. 

"  It  .should  be  recognized  that  many  have  gone  on  to  secure  certain  training  beyond  the 


Authorities  outside  our  school  system  feel  that  it  takes  a  year's  or  2  years'  train- 
ing to  acquire  real  competence  in  coping  with  the  variety  of  problems  presented 
by  retarded  readers. 

Although  reading  retardation  is  commonly  associated  with  emotional  prob- 
lems, it  is  the  rare  case  served  by  remedial  reading  staff  in  which  the  bureau 
of  child  guidance  is  also  involved. 

There  is  an  urgent  need  for  expansion  of  the  volume  of  remedial  teaching  avail- 
able in  our  schools."  And  there  is  a  need,  too,  for  adding  a  number  of  fully  quali- 
fied specialists  to  provide  intensive  services  for  children  with  major  conflicts 
in  their  approach  to  school  work.  The  coaching  job  that  present  staff  contributes 
is  a  creditable  one,  but  there  are  many  cases  where  coaching  is  not  enough. 

Reading  disability  is  most  commonly  associated  with  boredom  with  school  and 
general  maladjustment.  While  native  intelligence  is  about  the  same  for  both 
boys  and  girls,  reading  retardation  (like  delinquent  behavior)  is  found  far  more 
commonly  in  boys.  Since  there  is  good  reason  to  presume  that  emotional  rather 
than  purely  intellectual  obstacles  are  involved,  service  in  this  field  cannot  be 
carried  on  single-handed  by  classroom  teachers,  no  matter  what  in-service  helps 
are  made  available  to  them.  Wherever  a  remedial  reading  operation  is  offered, 
it  realistically  must  provide  for  adequate  social  work  and  psychological  services 
on  a  "built-in"  basis.  Employment  of  such  personnel  should  not  be  at  the 
expense  of  bureau  of  child  guidance  services. 

To  place  on  remedial  reading  teacher  in  every  school  having  30  or  more  eli- 
gible children  would  require  at  least  100  additional  positions.  If  fully  quali- 
fied specialists  are  not  recruited  for  this  work,  there  should  at  least  be  a  psy- 
chologist and  a  social  worker  as  consultants  to  the  reading  teachers;  1  such 
team  with  each  of  the  24  assistant  superintendents.''' 

Superintendent  of  Schools  Jansen  is  agreed  on  the  importance  of  focusing 
efforts  upon  reading.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  an  attack  upon  reading  problems  has 
been  chosen  by  the  school  authorities  as  a  No.  1  objective  for  the  next  academic 

The  board  of  education  budgeted  expansion  centers  about  an  imaginative  sum- 
mer program  (integrating  coaching  in  reading  with  a  recreation  approach)  and 
"reading  clinics"  so  small  as  to  be  of  a  demonstration  character.  The  two  under- 
takings combined  were  budgeted  at  $48,000,  scarcely  more  than  one  one-hundredth 
of  1  percent  of  next  year's  school  expenditures.  A  larger  commitment  would 
seem  desirable.  I  would  in  fact  go  beyond  the  board  of  education's  modest 
request.  So  vital  do  I  consider  this  activity  that  I  would  strongly  urge  at  least 
150  added  reading  teachers  and  specialists,  and  combined  summer  reading  and 
recreation  programs  on  a  substantial  scale.     A  start  should  be  made  promptly." 

Police  services  and  juvenile  delinquency 

I  have  reviewed  with  Police  Commissioner  Adams  the  role  of  the  police  in 
meeting  the  challenge  of  juvenile  delinquency.  We  see  eye  to  eye  on  the  impor- 
tance of  adequate  provisions  for  law  enforcement.  Our  city  must  dedicate  itself 
to  a  reign  of  law  and  order,  and  youth  who  think  they  are  outside  limitations 
which  the  rest  of  society  accepts  have  got  to  learn  the  facts  of  life. 

But  the  law  does  not  survive  by  force  alone.  And  the  police  have  a  real  con- 
tribution to  make  beyond  deterrence,  enforcement,  apprehension,  detection.  We 
are  returning  to  the  good  days  of  "the  officer  on  the  beat,"  and  the  police  officer 
on  the  beat  is  as  likely  a  man  as  any  to  know  just  which  kids  are  headed  for 
trouble.  There  are  situations  where  a  friendly  interest  will  "turn  the  trick,'' 
others  where  a  judicious  word  to  parents  will  help  set  a  youngster  straight. 

In  some  situations,  however,  a  good  deal  more  than  incidental  interest  or  a 
few  well-chosen  words  are  called  for.  And  while  force  may  clamp  down  the 
lid  for  a  while,  I  am  convinced  it  can  never  solve  problems  in  the  long  run. 
There  are  boys,  and  girls,  too,  who  can  be  set  straight  even  after  the  first  trans- 
gression. But  setting  them  straight  may  take  more  time  than  an  officer  on 
street  patrol  can  give,  and  oftentimes  a  little  highly  specialized  understanding 
is  needed  as  well.  This  is,  I  believe,  where  a  police  unit  such  as  the  juvenile 
aid  bureau  could  come  into  the  pictuj-e. 

1=  At  present,  despitp  .in  increase  in  the  number  of  pupils,  the  number  of  "remedial  read- 
ins:  teachers"  is  one-fifth  lower  than  it  was  in  1947. 

"  At  present  there  are  no  such  personnel  at  all  assigned  to  this  program. 

14  The  cost  of  the  program  outlined  above  would  be  about  .');7.')0,000  per  annum.  This, 
however,  does  not  provide  more  than  one  teacher  for  schools  having  large  numbers  of 
retarded  readers. 




IN  3"».  A'"    &  5"  YEABS   ONLY.   I.Q-5.«90  ONLY. 



Replying  to  an  inquiry  in  1952,  of  members  of  the  International  Association 
of  Chiefs  of  Police,  every  one  of  the  20  reporting  for  American  cities  of  over 
500,000  population  had  officers  of  whom  special  qualifications  were  required, 
assigned  to  work  with  juveniles.  These  are  policemen  who  can  make 
social  investigations  of  sorts,  as  well  as  criminal  investigations.  All  our  great 
cities  have  special  policemen  and  policewomen  who  understand  young  people, 
who  can  be  friendly  and  who  can  be  firm — police  who  bring  to  their  assignment  a 
groundwork  in  psychology — officers  who  know  which  agencies  in  the  community 
are  best  in  a  position  to  help  a  youngster  headed  for  trouble,  before  catastrophe 
engulfs  him.^''  This  mission  involves  something  more  than  surveillance  of  bars 
and  dancehalls. 

Our  own  juvenile  aid  bureau  personnel  must  all  have  served  at  least  a  year 
in  the  precincts ;  almost  all  of  them  have  had  special  schooling  in  the  social 
sciences.  This  arm  of  the  force  has  a  vital  job  to  do  in  explaining  the  law  and 
the  police  to  young  troublemakers.  JAB  patrolmen  are  in  a  position  to  make 
immeasurably  easier  the  job  of  the  pastor,  the  settlement  club  leader,  the  school- 
teacher— yes,  and  the  parent." 

JAB  followups  on  juveniles  not  arrested  (probably  the  major  service  JAB 
renders  the  rest  of  the  force)  were  up  by  19  percent  last  year.  But  during  the 
same  period,  personnel  available  for  service  in  the  field  dropped  by  2  percent. 

JAB  at  present  is  without  units  in  almost  half  the  divisions  in  the  city." 
From  sunset  to  dawn  the  Bureau  is  such  a  skeleton  that  there  is  practically  no 
JAB.  If  we  were  to  staff  our  JAB  to  a  level  where  half  the  cities  in  the  country 
were  ahead  of  us  in  number  of  juvenile  officers  per  100,000  population,  JAB 
strength  would  be  2S0.     I  hope  New  York  eventually  will  be  above  average. 

Commissioner  Adams  recognizes  the  valuable  work  done  by  JAB  officers.  The 
accompanying  map,  showing  incidence  of  youth  offenses  in  the  city  of  New 
York,  is  based  upon  data  supplied  by  JAB  from  its  records  and  knowledge  of 
conditions.'**  But  the  commissioner  and  top  level  police  department  staff  do  not 
feel  that  they  have  sufficient  adequate  and  reliable  data  on  the  work  of  JAB 
and  youth  patrolmen  to  warrant  a  present  citywide  expansion  of  such  forces. 
Where  adult  crime  has  dropped  sharply  as  a  result  of  the  experiment  in  pro- 
viding a  larger  number  of  oflBcers  to  particular  precints,  a  corresponding  result 
has,  at  least  outwardly,  been  evident  in  juvenile  offenses  in  the  same  areas. 
The  commissioner  is  convinced  that  he  must,  in  justice  to  his  duty  to  the  city, 
concentrate  on  basic  police  protection  problems.  Yet  he  is  sufficiently  convinced 
of  the  inseparable  interrelationship  of  youthful  offenses  and  criminal  activities 
generally,  not  to  abandon  the  work  of  the  JAB  and  youth  patrolmen  at  this  time. 

Commission;  1-  Adams  and  I  have  agreed  that  the  work  of  the  JAB'"  should 
be  put  to  an  intensive  test  and  study  in.  say,  4  areas  in  which  the  incidence 
of  juvenile  offenses  is  greatest.  Controlled  observation  of  results  is  planned 
over  a  period  of  5  years  (a  maximum  figure).  The  roles  of  both  JAB  and  youth 
patrolmen  in  the  police  department  are  presently  undergoing  review  and  ap- 
praisal. This  control  period  will  permit  an  evaluation  on  which  to  base  conclu- 
sions for  citywide  expansion,  or  a  transfer  of  this  phase  of  community  work  to 
some  other  agency.  Such  experimentation  and  close  observation  will  cost  less 
than  an  overall  program  in  this  field  for  the  entire  city. 

I  believe  that  while  Commissioner  Adams'  experiment  is  in  progress,  provision 
should  be  made  for  enlisting  the  services  of  civilian  specialists  to  make  available 
to  the  Department  useful  approaches  from  related  fields.  Mr.  Adams  is,  of 
course,  interested  in  evaluating  the  effectiveness  of  a  youth-police  operation 
that  is  no  "strawman."  I  know  that  he  will  cooperate  in  every  way  with  the 
professors  on  the  overall  assessment  unit  which  will  integrate  factfinding  with 
reference  to  operations  of  all  agencies  working  in  the  juvenile  deliquency  field. 

'=  Every  one  of  the  units  in  cities  of  over  500,000  poinilation  is  affiliated  with  at  least 
one  community  iilannine  or  coordinating  ajrency   (such  as  welfare  and  health  council). 

^0  I  believe  that  specially  trained  police  personnel  can  make  a  unique  contribution  in 
working  directly  with  parents,  perhaps  on  a  block-by-block  basis.  But  a  program  along 
such  lines  may'  have  to  be  deferred  pending  completion  of  the  study  process  mentioned 

1' .Juvenile  aid  bureau  units  arc  assi-rnrd  responsibilities  which  cover  the  entire  city. 
However,  as  JAB  is  not  organized  on  a  divisional  basis,  most  units  must  serve  two  or  more 
divisions,  rei-'nrdless  of  the  division  in  which  they  are  located. 

18  Comparisons  are  in  terms  of  the  number  of  actions  per  precinct.  These  figures  are  not 
ad.iusted  for  differences  in  the  size  of  youth  population,  which  varies  from  precinct  to 
precinct:  delinquency  statistics  computed  "per  1.000  youth"  are  presented  on  the  map 
showing  youth  board  data. 

1"  With  which  should,  I  believe,  be  combined  that  of  the  youth  patrolmen. 




RATE    PER   1.000  YOUTHS 
5-20    YEARS 


;  'Youthful  Offender' 




I  regret  to  report  that  while  drug  addicts  have  disappeared  (or  have  been  pretty 
well  driven  underground)  in  our  schools,  there  is  every  reason  to  believe  that 
narcotics  still  represent  a  major  problem  in  the  juvenile  field  and  addiction  is  on 
the  increase.''"  A  large  majority  of  our  youthful  drug  users  come  from  neigh- 
borhoods where  narcotics  are  more  readily  available  and  represent  the  poorest 
educated  youths.  Interestingly  enough,  it  appears  that  although  most  of  the 
addicts  are  found  in  high  delinquency  areas,  there  are  certain  areas  of  equally 
high  delinquency  where  drug  use  has  not  spread  to  any  great  extent. 

Researchers  report  taht  while  there  are  more  delinquencies  for  profit  in 
high  drug  use  areas,  the  increase  in  delinquency  as  a  whole  (and  in  felonies) 
has  been  no  greater  in  high  drug  use  than  in  low  use  areas.  Indications  are 
that  gang  membership  (as  such)  by  and  large  does  not  lead  to  addiction.  Fur- 
thermore, education  regarding  the  effects  of  drugs  has  proved  effective  in  the 
cases  of  children  reached  before  the  critical  age;  by  the  time  a  boy  is  16,  it 
may  already  be  too  late.  There  is  every  reason  to  believe  that  such  factual 
information  serves  an  especially  useful  purpose  when  provided  to  youth  in  the 
areas  where  drugs  are  in  any  case  more  readily  available. 

The  board  of  education  a  couple  of  years  ago  provided  the  schools  with  cur- 
riculum materials  on  drugs  for  grades  7-12.  Consideration  might  well  be  given 
to  doing  some  of  this  teaching  in  the  6th  grade  as  well,  to  reach  more  children 
approaching  their  14th  year. 

There  appear  to  be  no  particular  measures  indicated  at  this  time  which  are 
not  already  being  applied.  Research  still  in  progress,  however,  may  point  to 
new  programs.  We  have  a  demonstration  program  at  Riverside  Hospital  to 
provide  special  treatment  and  foUowup  care  to  teen-age  addicts.  An  evaluative 
study  of  this  project  will  be  undertaken  very  shortly,  to  report  to  the  community 
on  what  has  been  learned  there  and  what  is  being  accomplished. 

Youth  toard  street  clubs  and  casetcorJc  services 

The  New  York  City  Youth  Board  has  been  doing  a  notable  job  with  predelin- 
quent and  delinquent  youth  who  seemed  too  tough  for  any  other  agency  to 
handle.  Developing  from  a  pilot  project  sponsored  by  welfare  council,  the 
council  of  street  clubs,  now  provides  a  corps  of  specially  trained,  highly  skilled 
group  workers  who  maintain  a  continuing  contact  with  some  22  teen-age  gangs. 

As  a  result  of  the  patient  efforts  of  the  social  group  workers,  youths  who  were 
prone  to  street  fighting  and  even  more  serious  crime  are  now  moving  in  the  direc- 
tion of  running  successful  social  affairs  and  building  their  reputation  in  a  more 
socially  acceptable  fashion. 

Make  no  mistake,  this  work  is  difficult  and  sometimes  disappointing.  Boys 
who  have  been  embittered  by  school  failure,  poverty,  and  social  discrimination, 
who  have  acquired  their  learning  from  hard  tutors  in  the  streets,  do  not  become 
little  gentlemen  overnight.  It  is  just  as  well  we  recognize  this  so  that  no  impos- 
sible demands  for  window  dressing  "progress"  reports  confront  this  staff.  They 
are  walking  a  tortuous  road,  but  there  have  been  some  notable  achievements. 

Among  the  groups  reached  by  this  work,  "gang  wars"  are  virtually  ancient 
history.  But  the  same  cannot  be  said  of  other  clubs  in  the  same  or  other  neigh- 
borhoods, for  whom  we  have  not  provided  helpful  leaders.  To  "pal  around" 
with  the  boys,  to  help  arrange  activities,  to  smooth  school  relations,  more  leaders 
are  needed. 

The  youth  board  proposes  doubling  the  number  of  street  clubs  served  in  the 
present  project  areas  ;  extension  of  service  to  other  neighborhoods  in  equal  volume 
is  also  suggested.  I  strongly  recommend  that  every  cent  requested  for  this 
work  be  appropriated  without  delay. 

There  are  precious  few  private  agencies  willing  to  undertake  the  difficult  area 
the  youth  board  has  cut  out  for  itself.  There  is  no  agency  in  a  position  to  carry 
this  work  tlirough  on  the  scale  of  the  youth  board  operation.  Their  leaders  have 
the  spirit,  the  will,  and  the  know-how ;  money  is  needed  to  quadruple  staff  on 
this  operation.  It  means  reaching  directly  a  pretty  obstreperous  sector  of  youth, 
some  of  them  before  they  get  into  serious  trouble. 

The  street  clubs  project  needs  an  increase  of  $508,000  by  1957-58.  The  youth 
board  can  indicate  by  how  much  it  is  in  a  position  to  expand  oi)erations  this 
next  year. 

=^0  .Tiivpnile  drug  arrosts  were  up  ">0  percent  in  1954.  However,  this  may  in  some  degree 
reflect  the  availability  of  a  larger  number  of  enforcement  personnel.  Commissioner  Adams 
has  been  adding  to  the  drug  squad  for  some  time  and  three  times  as  many  men  are  now  on 
the  job  as  compared  with  1951.  New  York  owes  its  welfare  council  a  salute  for  sounding 
a  danger  signal  several  years  ago. 








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To  back  up  the  street  club  workers,  the  youth  board  is  ready  to  recruit  social 
caseworkers  and  even  psychiatrists  who  are  prepared  to  work  on  the  street,  in 
poolrooms,  in  the  back  of  a  store,  where  these  youth  are  to  be  found.  Many 
have  problems  of  adjustment,  employment  problems,  other  needs  beyond  the 
skills  of  their  group  leaders.  In  some  instances,  a  good  counselor  can  be  of  real 
help  not  only  to  the  boy  but  in  straightening  out  a  difficult  family  situation 
as  well. 

There  is  a  crying  need  in  this  city  for  a  corps  of  specialists  in  personal  and 
family  problems  who  are  willing  and  able  to  go  out  to  people  who  need  help 
instead  of  sitting  in  an  office  waiting  for  clients.  The  youth  board  services  to 
families  and  children  has  demonstrated  over  a  period  of  time  that  it  is  up  to  this 
job  and  has  the  will  to  carry  it  through. 

An  increase  of  $270,000  by  1957-.58  has  been  requested.  Here,  too,  there  is 
virtually  no  other  agency  to  provide  the  service. 

I  strongly  recommend  that  these  funds  be  granted.  However,  I  suggest  that 
a  clear  statement  be  obtained  from  the  youth  board  as  to  what  proportion  of  this 
program  will  be  earmarked  for  services  to  adolescents  and  their  families.  This 
work  to  date  has  been  focused  around  9-year  olds,  and  while  that  service  sector 
should  unquestionably  be  supported  and  extended,  there  is  a  crying  need  for 
work  with  the  older  group  as  well. 

I  think  our  city  can  take  real  pride  in  the  pioneer  job  the  street-club  project 
and  the  services  for  families  and  children  are  doing.  I  have  seen  the  letters 
of  inquiry  the  youth  board  has  received  from  other  cities  contemplating  similar 
programs,  the  letters  from  overseas,  as  well.  We  are  charting  a  new  path  of 
service  to  those  who  need  it  most ;  this  is  an  approach  to  some  of  the  very 
thorniest  problems  in  the  whole  welfare  field.  And  it  is  an  approach  that  seems 
to  pay  off. 

Providing  comprehensive  youth  hoard  services  in  three  additional  areas 

The  youth  board's  comprehensive  juvenile  delinquency  index,  which  includes 
all  police  and  court  reports,''  shows  that  in  additicm  to  the  11  neighborhoods  in 
which  program  is  presently  concentrated,  3  new  areas  have  passed  the  critical 
point.  Funds  should  lie  allocated  without  dehiy  for  putting  into  Chelsea,  part 
of  Long  Island  City  and  northern  Staten  Island  the  full  Itattery  of  case  work, 
group  work,  and  recreation  services  which  already  are  contributing  so  largely  to 
stemming  of  the  tide  of  delinquency  in  other  high-hazard  neighborhoods. 

Right  now,  in  Chelsea,  for  example,  the  private  agencies  are  making  a  real  effort 
to  cope  with  an  increase  in  delinquency,  but  the  problem  is  simply  beyond  their 
resources.  There  are  large  numbers  of  teen-agers  drifting  about  the  streets, 
loath  to  participate  in  established  recreation  programs,  looking  for  a  little  ex- 
citement. We  should  be  imaginative  enough  to  tlirow  something  substantial  into 
the  gap  right  now,  before  trouble  breaks  out. 

This  is  a  tough  neighborhood,  but  it  has  good  citizens  who  have  organized  to 
try  to  get  some  action  on  their  problems.  Newcomers,  who  have  moved  in  of 
recent  years,  are  finding  a  place  in  the  life  of  the  community  but  they  need  help; 
so  do  the  people  who  have  lived  on  the  lower  West  Side  all  their  lives. 

It  is  regrettable  that  shortage  of  funds  impels  us  to  wait  until  the  11th 
hour  to  provide  opportunities  that  should  have  been  made  available  all  along. 
But  it  is  the  11th  hour  now.  I  have  examined  the  shifting  pattern  of  delinquency 
rates.     To  wait  any  longer  would  be  disa.strous. 

To  serve  three  new  areas,  youth  board  estimates  the  increase  in  cost  as  of 
1957-58  would  total  $1,314,500. 

That  is  a  lot  of  money,  but  the  youth  board  is  prepared  to  show  how  many 
would  be  reached  in  recreation  programs,  in  club  work,  through  case-work  treat- 
ment and  counseling.^  Included  in  the  total  also  are  funds  for  referral  units ; 
special  groups  of  social  workers  to  talk  with  problem  youngsters  right  in  the 
school  and  take  steps  to  insure  proper  foUowup. 

In  connection  with  the  referral  units,  however,  I  would  recommend  that  the 
youth  board  be  urged  not  to  confine  them  to  grade  schools  alone,  as  has  been 
pretty  much  the  practice  to  date.  More  of  an  attempt  should  be  made  to  reach 
teenagers.  This  means  consideration  not  only  of  junior  highs,  but  of  high  schools 
as  possible  locations  for  referral  units. 

^  Except  for  confiriential  "youthful  offender"  data. 

'^  An  important  aspect  of  tlie  youth  board's  program  is  the  fact  that  it  centers  around 
eervicps  available,  for  the  most  part,  In  the  neighborhoods.  Patience  and  persistence  are 
called  for  In  promotlnc  the  use  of  nelRhborhood  resources.  The  tendency  of  certain 
agencies,  even  those  receiving  public  funds  on  contract,  to  shift  operations  to  a  few  central 
locations  is  deplorable. 




i  new  service  areas  propoetd 
■critical''boroer  areas 
prcsent"  service  areas 

NEW   YOBK  CITY   VOUTM   aOAgO  ijAfj* 


Teacher  rotation 

It  is  generally  recognized  that  there  are  a  number  of  regular  schools  in  our 
jiuhlic  system  which  present  teachers  with  especially  demanding  requirements. 
I  refer  to  problems  in  the  encouragement  of  learning  and  in  the  discipline  area. 
In  order  to  assure  the  students  in  these  schools  equal  educational  opportunities, 
a  real  effort  to  provide  teachers  of  perhaps  above  average  competence  is 

There  is  a  substantial  body  of  opinion  in  informed  quarters  contending  that 
while  many  highly  effective  and  dedicated  teachers  are  to  be  found  in  such  set- 
tings, there  may  be  a  disproportionate  number  of  teachers  who,  for  one  or  another 
reason,  simply  are  not  equal  to  the  special  demands  of  the  situation.  Dr.  Jansen 
lias  informed  me  that  a  systematic  review  of  one  aspect  of  this  problem  is  under- 
way, with  an  eye  to  assuring  the  students  in  "difficult"  schools  a  group  of  teach- 
ers not  including  an  inordinate  proportion  of  substitutes  or  newcomers  to  the 

Delinquency  rates  vary  markedly  from  school  to  school.  P^very  effort  should 
be  made  to  assure  assignment  of  our  most  capable  teaching  persoiuiel  to  children 
growing  up  in  high  hazard  environments.  This  is  a  top  priority  question.  There 
is  a  real  need  for  reevaluation  of  our  teacher  rotation  policies. 

Steps  have  already  been  taken  to  offer  special  incentives  to  experienced  teachers 
contemplating  transfer.  Class  size  in  these  schools  has  been  cut  down  and  extra 
teachers  and  other  teaching  personnel  have  been  added.  The  question  of  in- 
centives merits  further  consideration.  Professional  people,  who  do  not  labor 
for  bread  alone,  may  appreciate  some  recognition  of  unusual  service. 

Parent  education 

There  is  no  denying  the  fact  that  the  one  most  important  influence  upon  the 
growing  child  is  that  of  his  parents.  It  seems  to  me,  however,  that  much  of 
the  criticism  attributing  to  parents  responsibility  for  juvenile  delinquency  is 
essentially  uncharitable.  Now  we  have  on  the  statute  books  laws  making  adults, 
and  parents  in  particular,  answerable  for  offenses  of  minors  in  cases  where  the 
part  played  by  the  adult  is  clearly  demonstrable.  What  is  to  be  said,  however, 
of  the  extent  of  general  responsibility  on  the  part  of  people  who  were  themselves 
reared  under  the  most  bitter  conditions:  who  as  children,  and  subsequently  as 
adults,  have  found  themselves  alone  in  what  has  seemed  an  essentially  indiffer- 
ent, even  hostile  and  exploitative  world.  How  sharply  and  righteously  have  we 
a  right  to  criticize  parents  who  were  themselves  beaten  unjustly,  parents  who 
have  known  at  first  hand  what  is  means  to  feel  shut  out  and  alone.  Some  will 
respond  to  such  deprivations  with  special  efforts  to  assure  a  richer  life,  a  warmer 
world  for  their  children ;  some  will  take  it  out  on  a  child  if  he's  the  only  helpless 
person  at  hand ;  and  some  will  feel  that  their  children  by  hook  or  crook  will 
achieve  adulthood  after  all,  as  they  themselves  have  done. 

Perhaps  these  obervations  seem  far  afield  from  the  traditional  parent  educa- 
tion references  to  toilet  training  and  the  size  of  a  child's  allowance,  and  the  age 
at  which  a  girl  should  be  given  the  money  for  her  first  "formal."  But  i>erhaps, 
instead,  they  point  to  some  new  directions  in  parent  education — to  parents  who 
are  still  "learning  the  ropes"  of  metropolitan  living,  parents  whose  aspirations 
for  their  children  may  be  no  less  poignant  for  all  their  inarticulateness. 

Perhaps,  there  has  been  much  talk  of  parental  incompetence  and  neglect.  Our 
city  over  the  decades  has  known  many  who  have  failed  their  children  not  out  of 
malice  or  indifference  but  because  they  did  not  know  the  new  ways — or  were  too 
troubled  getting  acquainted  with  a  new  land  and  a  new  way  of  life.  Today, 
we  can  make  the  getting  acquainted  easier,  and  today,  for  the  old-timers,  too, 
we  can  oi>en  the  door  to  help.  To  seek  counsel,  especially  the  counsel  of  one's 
own  neighbors,  need  imply  no  confession  of  failure. 

Sometimes  I  think  public  attitudes  toward  juvenile  deliquency  today  have 
that  embarrassed  quality  that  characterized  the  approach  to  tuberculosis  at 
the  turn  of  the  century.  Juvenile  deliquency,  like  scarlet  fever,  is  a  disorder 
of  children — whether  there  will  be  complications  depends  to  a  fair  extent  on 
how  the  case  is  treated.  And  attitudes  in  the  liomes  are  decisive  in  making  the 
vital  decisions  as  to  handling.^^ 

Our  board  of  education  has  projected  a  little  demonstration  through  the  even- 
ing centers  operating  in  more  and  more  of  our  schools.  Their  plan  is  not  for 
formal  lectures,   but  rather  along  lines   of  the  friendly   discussion   group.     I 

^■^  The  forp.coinj;:  by  no  means  is  intended  to  neglect  the  problems  raised  by  a  certain 
number  of  truly  irresponsible  individuals  who  have  simply  ignored  their  children. 


haven't  asked,  but  perhaps  members  will  chip  in  so  there'll  be  coffee,  too.  I 
susgest  also,  that  experience  has  demonstrated  that  some  parents  who  shy  away 
from  "a  discussion  group"  will  feel  more  free  to  chat  in  a  sewing  class  or  furni- 
ture repair  project.  As  these  are  oftentimes  precisely  those  we  are  most 
anxious  to  reach,  I  trust  that  those  responsible  for  the  program  will  plan  im- 
aginatively with  this  in  mind. 

This  type  of  enterprise  is  deserving  of  the  most  highly  qualified  leadership. 
Dr.  Jansen  assures  me  that  while  funds  will  not  permit  overly  attractive  pay- 
ment for  such  service,  the  schools  will  welcome  capable  and  experienced  people 
in  our  city,  not  presently  on  the  teaching  staff,  who  would  be  qualified  for 
part-time  employment  on  this  project. 

The  board  of  education's  budget  request  for  parent  education  was  $19,000. 
This  sum  was  a  mere  1%  percent  of  the  total  community  and  recreation  centers 
budget  request.  Salaries  to  leaders  in  the  sports  program  were  budgeted  at  a 
sum  27  times  as  large. 

The  fact  that  this  type  of  parent  education  is  a  new  program  in  the  schools 
need  not,  I  believe,  necessitate  such  a  creaklngly  slow  start.  Parent  discussion 
groups  may  be  an  experiment  for  the  bureau  of  community  education,  but  work 
along  these  lines  has  been  carried  on  successfully  elsewhere  for  many  years. 
There  is  a  real  reservoir  of  experience  to  draw  upon.-* 

I  therefore  recommend  as  a  minimum  that  a  worker  with  imrents  be  added 
to  the  staff  of  every  single  one  of  the  S7  evening  community  and  recreation 
centers  in  areas  designated  by  the  youth  board  as  high  delinquency  neighbor- 
hoods. These  people  should  be  retained  for  a  sutficient  number  of  sessions  per 
week  to  allow  them  adequate  time  to  plan  their  material  and  to  make  occasional 
necessary  visits  to  homes  and  community  agencies.  And  the  emphasis  should 
be  on  continuity  of  service  and  specialist  personnel ;  this  will  probably  necessi- 
tate recruitment  of  the  larger  propoi'tion  of  these  discussion  leaders  from  out- 
side the  schools,  according  to  procedures  already  in  effect. 

If  such  personnel  were  added  to  the  program  t)f  the  centers  in  the  14  youth 
board  special  sei-\'ice  neighborhoods  only,  no  more  than  87  people  would  be 
needed.  To  employ  268  parent  education  teachers  on  the  same  basis  in  evei'y 
such  center  in  the  city,  would  cost  approximately  $195,000. 

I  recommend  that  this  program  be  financed  by  a  special  appropnation  to  the 
youth  board,  but  be  operated  b.v  the  bureau  of  comnmnity  education.  Following 
already  tested  operating  practices,  the  youth  board  would  develop  personnel 
specifications  as  a  guide  to  the  bureau  of  community  education  in  the  recruitment 
of  personnel. 

I  further  recommend  providing  adequate  consiiltant-supervisor-trainer  person- 
nel for  the  professional  leaders  of  the  parent  groups.  Even  skilled  people  are 
going  to  need  counsel  themselves  in  carrying  out  any  program  that  really  gets 
into  basic  problems  of  parents.  I  believe  that  we  should  make  it  possible  for 
such  a  coordinator  to  have  a  conference  once  a  month  with  each  one  of  the 
parent  group  workers.  Two  full-time  coordinators  ($1,3,900  per  annum  total) 
might  provide  sufficient  consultation  service  for  87  group  workers  if  onlj'  the 
schools  in  youth  board  service  areas  where  served ;  to  provide  adequate  consul- 
tation services  for  leaders  of  groups  in  all  the  schools  involved  would  require 
about  six  more  full-time  coordinators.  It  is  absolutely  essential  that  we  provide 
for  supervisors  specifically  detailed  to  this  project. 

The  expanded  operation  projected  here  would  in  no  wise  affect  the  parent 
education  experiment  in  the  amount  of  $19,000  per  annum  proposed  by  the  board 
of  education  as  part  of  the  regular  program  of  the  Bureau  of  Community  Educa- 

In  connection  with  the  well-baby  clinic  program  of  the  health  department,  our 
city  has  obtained  the  services  of  an  internationally  recognized  authority  on 
children's  behavior."  This  gifted  physician,  sitting  in  with  regular  clinic  staff, 
talks  over  everyday  problems  with  mothers  and  children,  making  a  real  contri- 
bution in  forestalling  habit  problems,  tension,  and  anxiety  at  an  early  age. 

In  training  pediatricians  to  serve  along  these  lines,  we  are  erecting  a  first  line 
of  defense  against  delinquency,  as  well  as  against  persimal  maladjustment  and 
unhappiness.  Services  to  a  cross-section  population  of  normal  babies  and  their 
mothers  now,  may  save  untold  thousands  in  services  to  the  abnormal  a  few  years 

I  am  therefore  recommending  that  $17,0fM)  be  allotted  the  health  department 
to  institute  service  along  these  lines  as  part  of  its  program  in  two  additional 

2*  This  would  include,  of  course,  the  rich  experience  of  our  parent-teacher  associations. 
*5  Dr.  David  Levy. 


neighborhoods.  The  districts  serve<l  will  both  lie  within  youth  board  service 
areas  and  the  population  served  will  be  a  real  cross  section  of  our  youngest 
children's  i)arents,  getting  advice  when  it  can  do  the  most  good — before  delin- 
quency becomes  a  problem.  I  hope  that  our  mental  health  board  will  give  further 
expansion  of  this  project  top  priority  among  those  to  be  considered  in  its  plaus 
later  this  year. 

Already  underway,  also  in  our  heath  department,  is  a  parent  education  pro- 
gram, employing  informal  discussion  groups.  Especially  trained  personnel  lead 
the  sessions,  and  parents  have  an  opportunity  to  reconsider  their  own  problems 
in  the  friendly  light  of  neighbors'  shared  experience. 

I  believe  that  this  work  should  t>e  expanded,  with  the  understanding  that 
the  discussion  group  leaders  be  qualified  to  plan  programs  covering  all  aspects 
of  the  child-rearing  process.  All  parents  can  profit  by  this  counsel ;  all  children 
are  entitled  to  the  benefits  of  this  service.  Through  the  health  department,  we 
are  in  a  position  to  extend  this  help  to  parents  who  are  already  coming  periodi- 
cally for  other  services.  I  therefore  recommend  that  the  youth  board  be  granted 
$20,000  enabling  the  health  department  to  extend  this  service  in  those  youth 
board  .service  areas  where  it  is  not  presently  operating.  (I  might  add  that  a 
number  of  the  community's  .social  work  agencies  have  projects  along  similar  lines, 
which  they  will  wish  to  expand  as  private  benefactors  make  funds  available.) 

The  co-op  program  and  guidance  in  the  schools 

A  major  problem  related  to  juvenile  delinquency  centers  about  the  compulsory 
education  law,  and  the  school-leaving  age.  Some  have  suggested  that  boys  who 
seem  uninterested  in  school  and  are  always  getting  into  trouble  there  "get  out 
and  get  a  job."  ^^ 

It  seems  to  me  that  we  have  a  long  way  to  go  in  making  adequate  provision  for 
such  difficult  students  within  the  school  before  we  write  them  off  as  a  bad  lot. 
The  school  authorities  have  a  real  problem  in  maintaining  discipline  so  that 
teaching  can  go  on.  The  number  of  troublemakers  is  not  large  and  our  teachers 
have  every  right  to  expect  connnunity  support  in  dealing  with  them.  Aliout 
this,  let  there  be  no  mistake.  We  must  recognize  that  not  only  law  and  order, 
but  the  rights  of  the  great  majority  of  students — those  who  can  get  along— 
are  at  stake  here. 

Those  who  feel  that  delinquents  and  potential  delinquents  in  our  schools  should 
be  turned  out  on  the  street  "to  find  a  job"  may  be  interested  in  the  facts  to  date. 
A  large  statewide  study  in  California  disclosed  that  four  times  as  many 
dropouts  as  graduates  were  still  looking  for  work.  The  same  study  showed 
6  out  of  10  of  school  dropouts  were  children  of  unskilled  or  semiskilled  laborers ; 
yet  workers  in  these  categories  make  up  nowhere  near  that  large  a  proportion 
of  the  population.  The  problem  is  clear :  it  is  a  basic  American  principle  that 
children  have  an  eqiaal  chance  at  education,  regardless  of  their  parents'  circum- 
stances. Yet  it  seems  that  there  is  a  differential  when  w^e  look  to  see  for  whom 
the  schools  have  made  themselves  attractive.  (It  should  l>e  noted  here  that 
there  is  real  question  as  to  ineducability  being  a  substantial  ccmsideration  for 
any  large  proportion  of  these  dropouts). 

It  should  be  noted  also  that  children  leave  school  because  they're  "fed  up"  or 
feel  they'd  enjoy  working  more.  In  the  majority  of  cases,  the  reasons  for  leav- 
ing school  are  not  financial.  Follow  up  studies  show  that  dropouts  very  rarely 
get  any  schooling  subsequently,  and  that  more  find  themselves  in  "deadend"  jobs. 
In  the  Glueck's  recent  delinquency  study,  it  was  found  that  while  a  good  majority 
of  both  the  delinquents  and  nondelinquents  worked,  three  times  as  many  non- 
delinquents  were  employed  on  supervised  jobs  or  in  factories.  And  more  of  the 
delinquents  were  working  (unsupervised,  of  course)  in  street  trades. 

I  wonder  how  many  who  advocate  getting  the  older,  slower  student  out  of 
school  have  thought  about  where  he  would  land  afterward,  about  placement 
on  the  right  kind  of  job.  or  the  contrast  between  superivsion  (of  sorts  at  least) 
in  school  and  the  possibility  of  no  supervision  at  all  on  the  outside. 

Are  we  to  retreat  from  the  ground  the  British  can  only  now  contemplate 
achieving?  D.  Archibald,  writing  from  London  declares  "one  of  the  best 
methods  of  preventing  delinquency  is  to  keep  children  witliin  the  framework 
of  a  good  educational  system  during  the  most  restless  adolescent  years" — to  36. 

We  have  a  responsibility  to  try  to  help  the  youngster  who  seems  bent  on 
throwing  away  his  right  to  an  education.     He  is  still  a  juvenile;  we  cannot  say 

2"  There  may  be  some  point  to  amending  the  provisions  of  the  statute  sotting  up  con- 
tinuation schools,  to  allow  greater  flexibility  in  the  plannins  of  extended  school  services  for 
young  workers.      But  the  schools  must  continue  their  guidance  role. 


to  him,  "If  you  choose  to  neglect  your  education,  it  is  no  one's  concern  but  your 
own."  Consideration  must  be  given  to  the  vitality  of  the  curriculum  offered, 
and  to  teacher  attitudes  toward  the  slow  learner.  I  know  these  are  areas  where 
my  concern  is  shared  by  the  administrators  of  our  school  system,  and  many 
who  are  classroom  teachers.  Until  we  have  made  the  broadest  guidance 
programs  and  real  flexibility  of  curriculum  available  to  "misfits"  there  would 
seem  to  be  no  call  for  basically  revising  our  compulsory  attendance  law.  I 
have  yet  to  be  persuaded  that  the  children  who  would  in  consequence  be  be- 
yond the  reach  of  school  services  would  find  themselves  on  the  road  to  better 

Over  a  period  of  years,  a  program  has  been  developed  within  our  high  schools 
to  provide  an  opportunity  for  selected  students  to  complete  their  studies "'  while 
employed  in  private  industry  halftime,  at  prevailing  wages.  Last  year  4,000 
students  were  enrolled  in  this  co-op  program  in  33  high  schools ;  they  worked 
at  beauty  culture,  as  salesmen,  as  typists,  in  machine  shops,  in  ofiices,  and  in 
scores.  It  is  time  to  move  this  experiment  out  of  the  experimental  class ;  40 
years  have  demonstrated  its  worth.^  The  time  has  come  to  extend  this  cur- 
riculum to  more  students ;  perhaps  the  selection  process  has  been  just  a  little 
too  fine. 

Counseling  in  the  schools. — A  common  observation  by  delinquency  researchers 
is  the  need  for  more  effective  counseling,  especially  vocational  counseling,  for 
young  people.  Youths  graduating  or  dropping  out  of  high  school  are  too  often 
vague  as  to  their  employment  plans  and  frequently  seem  to  bring  little  to  a 
prospective  employer.  If  the  co-op  program  is  to  be  expanded,  there  must  be  a 
more  thorough  going  guidance  operation,  as  well. 

There  are  today  1,765  teachers  doing  guidance  work  in  the  schools ;  of  these, 
only  S2  are  licensed  counselors.  The  82  put  in  full  time  on  the  guidance  .lob ; 
63  other  teachers  with  a  varied  background  of  experience  are  also  detailed  to 
guidance  full  time.  Thus,  over  90  percent  of  the  personnel  engaged  in  guidance 
have  to  fit  it  into  a  program  which  makes  other  demands  on  their  time — most 
of  tliem  put  in  the  equivalent  of  1  day  a  week  in  this  work.  It  has  been  esti- 
mated that  the  amount  of  time  available  for  counseling  averages  out  to  less 
than  5  minutes  per  student  per  school  year  in  the  high  schools. 

It  is  to  be  hoped  that  ways  will  be  found  to  add  a  larger  number  of  specially 
qualified  full-time  people  to  help  with  this  vital  responsibility. 

Youth  boai-d  in-service  training 

The  youth  board  is  again  appealing  for  a  pitifully  small  grant  so  that  it 
can  set  up  a  thoroughgoing  training  program,  not  only  for  its  own  staff  but  also 
for  other  city  departments  which  have  requested  help  for  their  workers  in  the 
areas  where  youth  board  is  exi>ert.  Every  dollar  spent  for  training,  it  is  clear, 
multiplies  itself  by  making  it  possible  to  do  more  of  a  job  with  the  same  number 
of  people. 

The  kind  of  work  the  youth  board  is  carrying  on  requires  the  best.  To  assign 
it  a  task  and  then  hold  back  on  the  wherewithal  for  performing  the  task  effec- 
tively is  false  economy. 

The  in-sei'vice  training-program  request  is  for  $38,000.  That  hardly  seems 
like  much  of  a  training  program  for  so  large  a  staff,  but  that  is  the  youth  board's 
best  judgment.  Whatever  objections  there  may  have  been  to  this  enterprise  in 
the  past,  I  can  see  no  point  in  niggardliness  today.  I  heartily  endorse  this 
request  as  a  top-priority  program. 

Fellowship  study  program  :  Some  provision  must  be  made  to  support  tlie  efforts 
of  workers  in  certain  strategic  programs  to  obtain  the  special  professional  train- 
ing needed  for  most  effective  preformance  on  their  jobs."" 

This  problem  is  especially  acute  in  the  case  of  positions  where  social  work  skills 
are  involved,  as  the  training  program  in  that  field,  as  in  medicine,  makes  a  period 
of  full-time  field  experience  mandatory.  The  schools  of  social  work  have  shown 
some  willingness  to  credit  adequately  supervised  paid  experience  with  the  city  in 
lieu  of  the  customary  field  work,  but  these  plans  need  further  development. 

In  any  event,  it  must  be  recognized  that  there  are  city  workers  who  need  special 
training  involving  something  more  than  an  evening  or  two  a  week  of  their  own 
time.     They  are  deserving  of  public  support.     Our  educational  leave  jrolicy  is  in 

2'  Only  1  percent  of  co-op  students  drop  out. 

^  Some  iidditions  to  central  office  staff,  and  sufficient  funds  to  permit  co-op  supervisors 
in  the  various  hia;h  schools  to  devote  full  time  to  this  work  would  add  some  $90,000  to 
the  cost  of  tlie  program. 

™  We  now  allow  welfare  about  one-sixth  the  training  period  budgeted  for  police. 


crying  need  of  review  ;  every  possible  help  must  be  provided  career  people  seeking 
special  training  in  order  to  do  a  better  job.  The  obstacles  in  the  way  of  a  liber- 
alized educational  leave  program  must  be  swept  aside,  in  the  interest  of  better 
services  to  children  in  trouble.^" 

Planning  and  coordination 

Planning  and  coordination  of  programs  in  the  juvenile  delinquency  field  involves 
close  operating  relationships  with  many  city  departments  and  a  multitude  of 
private  agencies.  The  New  York  City  Youth  Board  has  for  some  years  now  been 
charged  with  this  responsibility.  There  is  every  reason  for  continuing  to  lodge 
the  function  with  that  body. 

However,  I  believe  the  youth  board  might  well  give  consideration  to  placing 
greater  emphasis  upon  its  role  in  planning.  To  date  a  very  large  proportion  of 
its  energies  has  gone  into  program  development  and  liaison  with  contract  agencies. 

Someone  has  got  to  be  given  the  time  to  step  back  and  take  the  long  view. 
Progress  in  this  direction  has  been  pretty  well  limited  to  some  examination  of 
the  youth  board's  own  programs.  Much  more  of  a  commitment  to  this  work 
area  is  urgently  needed.  Head  counting  is  important,  but  more  is  needed  for 
planning  than  merely  data  on  fluctuations  in  the  volume  of  delinquency. 

The  makeup  of  the  youth  board  itself  should  exemplify  the  breadth  to  be 
encompassed  in  the  coordination  of  operations.  Workers  in  the  field  can  be- 
come better  acquainted,  and  leadership  in  all  departments  can  reach  beyond 
particularized  interests  to  a  common  understanding  of  the  integration  of 
services  we  need.  Despite  some  years'  endeavor,  there  are  problems  still  to 
be  grappled  with.  Given  good  will,  cool  heads,  and  deployment  of  enough  crit- 
ical brainpower  at  the  center,  there  is  a  good  chance  of  a  well-rounded,  effective 
battery  of  programs. 

In  addition  to  a  broadened  research  perspective,  I  therefore  believe  the  youth 
board  needs  a  small  unit  of  full-time  experts  who  can  bring  various  special 
skills  to  the  problems  of  coordination  and  long-range  planning.  This  team  would 
be  responsible  for  smoothing  working  relationships  with  other  agencies  and  for 
the  development  of  overall  operations  plans  with  the  youth  board  members  and 
executive  director.  It  would  be  well  to  involve  in  planning  the  chiefs  of  the 
board's  operating  divisions,  and  perhaps  private  agency  representatives  as  well. 
But  the  pressing  need  is  for  additional  personnel  who  can  look  beyond  day- 
to-day  problems  and  have  no  direct  responsibility  for  operations,  no  connnit- 
ment  to  a  particular  aspect  of  today's  problem. 

The  planning  unit,  including  a  director,  and  senior  analysts  who  would  rank 
with  the  present  casework,  recreation  and  group  work,  and  research  chiefs, 
should  report  quarterly  directly  to  the  board.  Its  responsibilities  should  center 
about  the  need  for  communitywide  coordination  of  service  programs;  opera- 
tions being  carried  on  by  the  youth  board  directly  should  not  be  its  primary 

Evaluation. — Reasonable  assumptions  rather  than  established  facts  must  pro- 
vide the  justification  for  most  of  our  programs  in  this  field  today.  But  for  long- 
range  planning,  reasonable  assumptions  simply  will  not  sufiice.  A  scientific  fact- 
finding and  assessment  program  is  called  for. 

Operations  costing  in  the  neighborhod  of  $25  million  are  in  a  pretty  expensive 
neighborhood.  We  want  to  know,  as  we  move  ahead,  which  ones  work  and 
which  do  not.  And  we  want  to  know  which  programs  are  the  more  effective 
among  those  which  really  do  work. 

For  all  this,  we  need  a  factfinding  group  not  attached  to  any  particular  pro- 
gram but  in  a  position  to  work  freely  with  all. 

I  believe  the  most  suitable  location  for  this  assessment  operation  is  not  only 
outside  the  field  agencies  but  outside  the  city  government  itself.  The  research 
people  should  be  free  to  carry  through  scientific  studies  of  our  best  efforts,  with- 
out any  possibility  of  political  interference.  The  place  for  such  a  project  is  in 
an  institution  of  learning  and  President  Gallagher,  of  the  City  College,  has  indl- 

^  The  cost  of  this  prosrnm  will  depend  upon  whether  salary  is  granted  workers  awav  on 
educational  leave.  Perhaps  $30,000  would  suffice  for  a  year's  demonstration.  Note  that 
new  State  legislation  will  provide  help  to  probation  officers.  Money  is  still  neded,  however, 
in  other  fields. 

31  The  cost  of  a  unit  comprised  of  7  professionals  and  3  secretaries  would  be  about 
$82,000  per  annum.  With  youth  board  budget  projections  at  levels  of  $4  to  .?5  million,  this 
hardly  seems  a  great  sum  to  put  into  planning.  It  must  also  be  remembered  that  tlie 
planning  will  he  with  reference  to  programs  in  the  entire  community,  not  merelv  in  the 
youth  board. 

65263—55 3 


cated  a  willingness  to  provide  a  home  for  the  evaluation  team ;  this  is  in  line 
with  the  interest  this  college  has  already  demonstrated  through  action  projects 
in  our  field.  Among  these,  I  might  mention  the  college's  community  service 

To  carry  through  the  task  effectively  will  require  the  services  of  a  person 
witli  rank  equivalent  to  a  full  professor  as  director ;  proper  staffing  would  prob- 
ably call  for  an  associate  professor,  2  assistant  professors,  and  10  research  asso- 
ciates— plus  clerical  personnel.  The  assessment  unit  would  not  need  to  be  fully 
staffed  until  perhaps  a  year  after  it  got  underway,  but  the  key  people  in  par- 
ticular should  be  recruited  at  the  outset,  and  for  a  period  of  time  long  enough 
to  assure  a  coherent  operation.  The  project  should  be  clearly  understood  as  of 
a  temporary  character.  It  seems  to  me  we  should  plan  on  a  5-year  basis,  and 
should  allow  flexibility  so  that  certain  personnel  could  be  retained  for  special 
studies,  even  of  a  relatively  brief  sort. 

The  entire  factfinding  operation  will  be  carried  out  by  specially  trained  and 
experienced  people  who  have  no  special  axe  to  srind  and  are  beholden  to  no 
particular  agency.  They  should  have  the  freest  access  to  any  city  project 
which  affects  juvenile  delinquency.^"  I  believe  that  private  agencies,  too.  will 
respond  positively  to  an  invitation  to  cooperate. 

Welfare  and  civic  leaders,  as  well  as  certain  strategically  situated  civil 
servants  can  play  an  important  role  in  helping  orient  this  work.  A  group  of 
such  people  is  well-nigh  indispensable  in  helping  prepare  the  ground  for  the 
action-research  team.  But  we  would  want  to  have  a  clear  understanding  from 
the  outset,  that  the  researchers  would  be  free  from  any  outside  control. 

The  senior  personnel  for  this  work  will  be  soiight  in  a  nationwide  canvass 
of  the  most  promising  prospects.  Dr.  Gallagher  believes  he  could  be  in  a  posi- 
tion at  an  early  date  to  submit  names  to  the  mayor  for  endorsement.  This 
would  enable  us  to  get  underway  without  losing  a  whole  academic  year  because 
of  key  personnel  having  made  other  commitments. 

It  should  be  emphasized  that  what  will  be  sought  is  topnotch  scholars  who 
have  already  demonstrated  a  capacity  to  carry  out  action  research.  This  can- 
not be  a  center  for  theoretical  or  basic  studies. 

Without  committing  the  college  in  advance  to  any  particular  design  in  bal- 
ancing the  research  team.  I  believe  we  would  do  well  to  bear  in  mind  that  the 
problem  we  are  attemping  to  solve  is  in  its  largest  aspects  a  social,  not  a 
purely  clinical  problem.  The  techniques  we  emplo.v  in  the  prevention  and 
treatment  of  juvenile  delinquency  certainly  include  clinical  techniques.  But 
the  problem  in  evaluating  a  proper  balance  among  programs  is  a  problem 
calling  primarily  for  a  social  scientist  with  a  strong  rest^arch  background. 
In  addition  to  personnel  with  sociological  skills,  experts  with  capacities  along 
psychiatric,  psychological,  social  work,  and  statistical  lines  (for  example)  are 
all  indispensable.  I  believe  it  should  be  possible,  in  every  instance,  to  find 
for  this  work  people  who  have  skills  and  a  deep  appreciation  of  more  than 
a  single  one  of  these  fields.  This  job  is  a  tough  one,  and  not  for  the  narrow 
specialist ;  the  team  approach  has  got  to  be  an  agreed-upon  foundation  before 
we  can  even  think  of  getting  started. 

I  believe  that  an  effective  factfinding  program  will  save  us  hundreds  of 
thousands  of  dollars  yearly,  by  making  clear  just  whicli  programs  in  the  delin- 
quency field  are  actually  carrying  out  fi'uitful  operation.s.  A  centralized  assess- 
ment project  will  make  valid  comparisons  possible  and  enable  us  to  plan  tieing 
together  the  impact  of  programs  under  diversified  auspices.  A  centralized 
research  operation  should  also  prove  more  economical  in  meeting  the  need  for 
new  information  as  indicated  above.'' 

The  $95,000  i>er  annum  this  research  program  would  cost  when  it  got  fully 
underway  is  a  small  amount  indeed,  if  we  bear  in  mind  the  magnitude  of  the 
sums  (perhaps  $25  million)  expended  upon  all  our  operational  programs.  Any 
well-run  enterprise  in  the  business  field  would  consider  this  small  allocation 
for  factfinding  and  quality  control,  a  very  minimum  level,  indeed. 

In  addition  to  the  10  priority  programs  which  I  have  recommended  for  imme- 
diate attention,  there  are  a  number  of  others  meriting  the  most  serious  con- 
sideration. Some  touch  upon  operations  on  which  I  wish  to  inform  myself 
more  fully ;  I,  therefore,  merely  make  mention  of  them  at  this  time,  by  way  of 
preface  to  future  reports. 

32  This  nilsht  bp  promoted  by  providing  for  some  continuity  in  the  research  personnel 
assisrnprt  to  this  or  that  operatinjr  prosrani. 

^^  There  will  still  be  a  need  for  the  research  work  presently  going  on  in  the  New  York 
City  Youth  Board,  for  example. 


In  this  section,  also,  I  am  touching  briefly  upon  a  few  projects  to  which 
I  wish  to  lend  a  hearty  endorsement  as  proper  areas  for  the  initiative  of  private 
individuals  and  agencies.  The  city,  in  the  last  analysis,  can  carry  only  so 
much  of  the  load.  Private  social  agencies,  service  clubs,  philanthropists,  founda- 
tions, individual  citizens  have  all  played  an  historic  role  in  coping  with  the 
community's  welfare  problems.  To  meet  the  challenge  of  juvenile  delinquency 
will  require  the  mobilization  of  all  of  our  resources.  The  good  work  already 
being  carried  on  must  be  extended  even  further.  This  is  a  challenge  to  every 
New  Yorker,  according  to  his  personal  resources  of  skill  and  of  money.  In 
addition  to  the  small  number  of  areas  I  enlarge  upon  briefly  here,  appendix 
III  lists  some  two  dozen  projects,  large  and  small,  which  should  prove  of 

To  these  I  wish  to  add  the  great  contribution  employers  can  make  in  planning 
for  part-time  employment  by  youth  in  commerce  and  industry.  Many  of  the 
largest  department  stores,  offices,  and  factories  in  our  city  are  partners  in  the 
board  of  education's  co-op  program,  but  more  job  opportunities  are  needed. 
In  addition,  the  law  permits  work  on  the  widest  variety  of  jobs  on  a  part-time 
basis  even  by  students  not  reached  by  tlie  co-op  program.  I  cannot  place  too 
great  an  emphasis  upon  the  value  of  socially  useful,  properly  paid  work  under 
conditions  not  detrimental  to  juvenile  health  and  morals.  This  is  an  area  where 
concern  about  delinquency  can  be  translated  into  action — to  the  mutual  advan- 
tage of  the  youth,  the  employer,  the  school,  and  the  community  at  large. 


Neighborhood  civic  organization 

In  a  munber  of  cities  experiments  in  the  development  of  grassroots  civic  devel- 
opment associations  are  pointing  a  way  to  real  progress  toward  meeting  the 
challenge  of  juvenile  delinquency,  along  with  a  number  of  other  long-standing 
social  problems.  This  is  a  job  to  be  carried  on,  in  the  last  analysis,  by  the 
neighbors  themselves,  although  outside  help  can  play  a  constructive  role. 

In  his  first  annual  report,  our  mayor  pointed  out  that  in  "any  given  area  of 
the  city  the  number  of  oldtime  families  who  have  struck  deep  roots  in  the 
neighborhood  is  relatively  small.  It  is  for  that  reason  that  special  efforts  must 
be  exerted  to  develop  citizen  participation  in  the  various  neighborhoods  through- 
out the  city." 

It  is  simply  not  possible  to  put  too  much  emphasis  upon  the  potentials  of 
activity  along  these  lines.  In  high-delinquency  areas  in  particular  such  civic 
groups  have  an  invaluable  part  to  play  in  overall  welfare  planning  and  in 
encouraging  constructive  social  action  on  the  part  of  youth.  A  constructive 
social  action  on  the  part  of  adults,  by  the  way,  would  be  seeking  employment 
in  the  police  department's  expanded  street-crossing  guard  program.  This  work 
is  something  that  any  reasonably  intelligent  and  responsible  person  mipfht  under- 
take, and  I  know  Mr.  Adams  would  welcome  inquiries  from  neighborhood  people 
desiring  to  qualify  for  this  part-time  employment. 

It  is  my  opinion  that  community  organization  projects  are  most  appropriately 
developed  under  independent  auspices ;  city  officials  and  workers  in  a  number 
of  departments  may  quite  appropriately  be  involved  in  auxiliary  capacities,  or 
in  their  own  right,  personally,  as  citizens.  But  the  type  of  citizen  effort  the 
mayor  and  other  forward-looking  community  leaders  envision  should  be  com- 
pletely free  of  any  hazard  of  official  domination. 

Neighborhood  civic  associations  planned  as  membership  organizations  would 
play  a  role  essentially  different  from  that  undertaken  by  the  mayor's  community 
advisory  boards,  whose  members  serve  by  appointment.  Civic  associations 
serve  a  complementary  purpose. 

As  people  in  our  several  neighborhoods  evolve  organizational  forms  appro- 
priate to  their  own  needs,  and  bring  forward  articulate,  dedicated,  responsible 
leadership,  the  whole  city  will  be  the  gainer.  And  our  own  job  in  planning  com- 
mon services  will  be  facilitated  immeasurably. 

I  am  sure  that  as  this  initiative  develops,  a  multitude  of  opportunities  will  be 
presented  for  city  agencies  to  prove  helpful.  This  is  a  fine  prospect  to  look  ahead 
to.  And  for  the  time  being,  a  great  challenge  to  New  Yorkers  to  work  with  New 
Yorkers — and,  perhaps,  for  those  who  have  funds  or  know-how  to  lend  a  hand 
to  those  who  may  just  now  be  making  a  beginning. 

Time-honored  procedures  and  regulations  are  reexamined  in  times  of  crises. 
Enlightened  self-interest  can  be  nicely  blended  with  a  sense  of  responsibility  to 
the  larger  community.  It  is  to  be  hoped  that  New  Yorkers  are  moving  toward 
the  sharing  of  facilities  jealously  guarded  for  good  reason  over  the  years. 


Columbia  University,  for  example,  last  year  for  the  first  time  opened  Baker 
Field  to  an  outside  group.  Their  generosity  made  possible  the  development  of 
a  teen-age  baseball  league  in  this  neighborhood,  where  there  is  a  high  hazard  of 
youngsters  becoming  delinquent. 

Our  public  schools  are  doing  a  fine  job  in  opening  their  doors  for  a  wide  variety 
of  projects.  In  the  coming  year,  this  will  be  the  ease  more  than  ever  before. 
Doubtles  there  are  other  buildings  in  our  neighborhoods  which  may  be  put  at  the 
disposal  of  the  community  at  large  during  idle  hours.  Perhaps  there  will  be 
those  among  our  church  and  synagogue  leaders  who  will  come  forward  at  this 
time  to  offer  facilities  on  a  nondenominational  basis  for  communal  enterprises. 
A  number  of  fine  examples  have  been  set  already. 

Those  charged  with  pastoral  responsibilities  can  render  a  real  service  to  the 
entire  community  by  making  space  for  wholesome,  nonsectarian  recreation  pro- 
grams available  to  all  youth,  as  well  as  those  they  number  in  their  own  llock. 
Surely  there  is  no  nobler  proof  of  a  belief  that  all  men  are  brothers,  than  this 
practical  sort  of  felowship.  There  are  many  who  fee  forsaken,  many  lolling  on 
stoops  or  crowded  on  a  bleak  corner  under  the  lamppost  who  would  resjwnd  to 
Jin  opportunity  to  participate  in  a  vital  leisure-time  program  under  imaginative 

Role  of  the  school 

The  schools  can  make  significant  contributions  to  the  solution  of  the  delin- 
fiuency  problem  in  a  variety  of  ways.  I  have  discussed  a  number  of  special  pro- 
grams at  various  points  in  this  report.  But  most  important  is  the  opportunity 
afforded  the  day-to-day  classroom  teacher. 

The  challenge  is  not  to  be  a  substitute  parent,  a  substitute  psychiatrist  or  a 
substitute  policeman.  The  challenge  is  to  motivate  learning,  never  to  cease 
trying  to  capture  the  elusive  imagination  of  the  growing  child.  This  is  what  we 
mean  by  "helping  open  the  doors  of  the  world."  The  challenge  to  the  teacher  is 
to  teach — hopefully,  to  teach  from  a  loving  henrt;  but,  in  any  event,  really  to 

"Many  learnings  occur  simultaneously  *  *  *  The  teacher  who  knows  the 
children  under  his  care  can  do  much  by  using  the  total  learning  situation  to  help 
the  child  with  disturbed  conditions  of  life.  The  attainment  of  this  end  requires 
no  abstruse  knowledge  or  newly  discovered  techniques ;  the  teacher  who  is  fair- 
minded,  sympathetic,  emotionally  reliable,  who  has  concern  for  the  development 
of  healthy  personality  in  his  pupils,  and  who  is  skilled  in  teaching,  helps  to 
diminish  the  dissatisfactions  that  lead  to  maladjustment.  Nothing  is  gained  by 
describing  his  work  as  group  therapy." 

Of  recent  years,  there  have  been  a  growing  number  of  indications  of  lowered 
morale  among  teachers  in  our  public  schools.  The  reasons  for  discontent  are 
varied,  and  it  may  be  that  some  of  the  teachers'  wishes  cannot  be  met. 

A  crucial  problem  was  raised  by  Superintendent  Jansen  at  the  time  of  the 
school  budget  bearings.  "The  teenager  in  our  present  high-tension  world  is  in 
great  need  for  closer  contact  with  his  teachers  that  can  only  come  when  the 
class  size  is  considerably  reduced."  This,  of  course,  is  equally  true  of  the  needs 
of  preteens.  I  shall  have  to  refrain  from  making  any  specific  recommendations 
here,  because  the  magnitude  of  the  sums  involved  puts  this  program  outside  the 
budgetary  limitations  of  the  present  enterprise. 

After  the  parent,  no  c)ne,  probal)ly,  has  a  greater  influence  upon  the  growing 
child  than  his  teachers.  To  the  child  maturing  in  a  setting  replete  with  delin- 
quency hazard,  the  teacher  is  in  an  especially  strategic  position  to  be  of  help. 

The  lioard  of  education  has  provided  real  leadership  through  such  special 
]n-ogranis  as  those  in  the  all  day  neighborhood  schools,  the  play  schools,  and 
the  bureau  of  comnnmity  education.  Much  that  is  helpful  proceeds  from  110 
Livingston  Street,  by  way  of  curriculum  materials  and  other  publications. 

But  to  some,  the  very  size  of  the  public  school  system  seems  to  militate  against 
the  free  flow  of  ideas  from  the  classroom  teacher  back  to  the  administration. 
There  is  real  need  for  experimentation  with  devices  to  bring  classroom  opinion 
more  directly  to  bear  upon  central  planning.  Just  what  methods  will  prove 
most  effective  in  attaining  that  end,  I  leave,  at  this  time,  to  the  schoolmen.'* 

^' Thp  informnl  wppkly  confpvfnop.'^  board  of  Pflnpatlon  President  Charles  H.  Silver  has 
been  holding  witli  groups  of  principals,  certainly  seem  a  positive  contribution.  An  extension 
of  this  program  to  include  groups  composed  exclusively  of  classroom  teachers  has  been 
reported  under  consideration.  I  am  sure  such  discussions  would  prove  worthwhile  for  all 


The  spark  of  interest,  the  warm  flame  of  dedication,  are  an  indispensable  part 
of  teaching.  Children  who  spend  their  days  with  teachers  who  are  serving 
time,  are  qnick  to  sense  that  fact.  Disillusionment  with  school  is  generally 
recognized  as  playing  an  important  part  in  the  development  of  delinquent  pat- 
terns. Any  contribution  the  administration  can  make  to  reviving  a  flagging 
teacher  morale,  will  prove  a  real  blow  against  juvenile  delinquency.  And  the 
community  at  large  can  do  more  to  demonstrate  the  high  regard  in  which  it 
holds  those  who  have  dedicated  a  lifetime  of  service  to  this  honored  calling. 


Unexcused  absence  from  school  is  far  and  awa.v  the  most  frequent  of  all 
delinquencies.  And  truancy  not  uncommonly  proves  to  have  been  the  first  im- 
portant misstep  if  we  examine  the  personal  history  of  a  hardened  criminal. 

If  it  were  possible  to  do  something  for  children  who  have  not  yet  come  in 
major  conflict  with  the  law  at  the  time  they  first  start  to  truant,  many  delinquent 
careers  might  be  nipped  in  the  bud.  The  bureau  of  attendance  of  our  school 
system  has  a  large  staff  engaged,  among  other  things,  in  investigating  all  unex- 
plained absences  of  more  than  a  few  days.  As  it  happens,  in  7  investigations 
out  of  10,  the  absence  proves  to  have  been  "lawful;"  only  21  percent  of  the 
investigated  absences  turn  out  to  be  "trunacies."  ^^  Focussing  upon  making  a 
very  large  number  of  investigations  means  that  it  is  only  possible  to  si)end  a 
limited  amount  of  time  looking  into  any  particular  case ;  I  believe  there  is  a  real 
need  for  deployment  of  personnel  under  revised  procedures  more  likely  to  result 
in  intensive  work-up  of  the  small  proportion  of  cases  needing  long-term  service.^" 

Our  attendance  officers  should  have  a  real  opportunity  to  help  children  who 
are  drifting^before  they  drift  too  far  and  in  the  wrong  direction.  "By  definition, 
truancy  implies  that  school  is  an  unsatisfactoiy  experience."  To  what  extent 
are  our  attendance  officers  in  a  position  to  help  children  achieve  a  more  satisfac- 
tory experience  in  the  schools?  Is  there  opportunity  for  intensive  followup  with 
the  child,  his  parents,  his  classroom  teacher — in  that  crucial  fraction  of  cases 
where  the  pattern  is  not  yet  set?  Is  it  possible,  for  example,  to  give  special 
attention  to  the  relatively  small  proportion  of  truants  in  the  second  and  third 
grades,  say,  who  may  be  just  commencing  to  experiment  in  delinquency?  Or  is 
the  emphasis  uix)n  maintaining  a  certain  volume  of  completed  investigations  for 
accounting  purposes  in  connection  with  State  aid  ?  " 

"The  normal  truant  belongs  in  the  group  of  those  who  resist  school  because 
of  boredom.  Perhaps  at  one  time  or  another  it  has  included  all  of  us,  for  it 
is  in  the  nature  of  living  to  resist  conformity,  routine,  rigid  rules,  and  to  seek 
variety  and  creativity,  using  freedom  to  explore  at  the  unfettered  dictates  of  the 

"When  rules  are  avoided  by  a  few,  control  over  the  group  is  threatened.  These 
children  challenge  the  imagination  of  teachers  and  school  administrators.  Giv- 
ing them  enriched  programs  and  understanding  and  wise  counsel  is  usually 
the  best  answer.  Labeling  them  "truants"  or  "delinquents"  is  as  fruitless  as  it  is 
dangerous.  Individual  treatment  is  best  for  them  as  well  as  for  the  morale 
of  the  school." 

The  attendance  officer  can  be  a  key  man  in  the  team  approach  to  delinquency. 

The  "600"  schools 

A  few  years  ago  an  experiment  was  undertaken  by  the  board  of  educa- 
tion to  provide  special  opportunities  for  grade-school  students  presenting  dis- 
ciplinary problems  in  the  regular  school.  Teachers  in  the  special  schools  are 
paid  additional  salary,  but  on  the  whole  cannot  be  regarded  as  specialist  per- 
sonnel. The  selection  process  is  designed  to  secure  experienced  teachers  who 
have  deaionstrated  a  capacity  to  work  with  problem  youngsters.  But  the 
additional  training  demanded  is  essentially  minimal,  and  questions  have  been 
raised  as  to  the  real  value  of  this  isolation  program,  which  now  costs  more 
than  $1  million  per  annum  for  salaries  alone. 

A  thoroughgoing  assessment  of  the  operation  has  yet  to  be  undertaken,  and 
while  there  are  unquestionably  positive  aspects,  the  public  is  entitled  to  some 
real  facts  as  to  the  value  of  the  program  as  reflected  in  the  subsequent  careers  of 
graduates.  I  feel  that  plans  for  high  schools  of  the  same  sort,  as  well  as 
similar  schools  for  girls,  should  be  held  in  abeyance.     Some  concerted  fact- 

^  Most  of  the  remainder  are  children  unlawfully  detained  by  parents  or  guardians  to- 
gether with  a  scattering  of  children  unlawfuhy  employed. 

^  Last  year  there  were  no  less  than  376,000  separate  investigations. 

^^  My  concern  is  that  a  maximum  of  attention  be  turned  to  counselling.  I  am  not 
suggesting  that  investigation  of  absences,  as  required  by  law,  be  abandoned. 


finding  is  in  order,  and  it  is  my  hope  tliat  a  study  wmmittee  Superintendent 
Jansen  will  soon  appoint  will  include  not  only  board  of  education  personnel  but 
experts  from  outside  the  school  system  and  consultants  suggested  by  interested 
civic  grouiis,  as  well. 

The  Bureau  of  Child  Guidance 

This  essential  service  in  our  schools  is  being  enlarged  during  the  coming  year, 
as  additional  psychiatrist-psychologist-socialworker  teams  are  activated.  Dr. 
Jansen  is  presently  working  on  plans  for  certain  improvements  in  the  operation, 
in  the  light  of  an  extensive  study  only  recently  completed.  This  ambitious 
survey  (made  posible  by  the  joint  effort  of  our  board  of  education,  the  Field 
Foundation,  the  New  York  Fund  for  Children,  and  the  New  York  Foundation) 
offers  a  real  point  of  departure  for  enlightened  planning.  I  shall  put  off  making 
any  recommendations  about  this  bureau  while  the  survey  report  is  till  being 

Recreation  programs 

The  bureau  of  community  education  in  our  public  schools,  under  the  able 
leadership  of  Mark  McCloskey  (who  now  heads  the  New  York  State  Youth  Com- 
mission) has  done  a  notable  job  in  providing  extended  recreation  services  in 
some  288  schools.  The  bureau  in  recent  years  has  been  able  to  employ  full-time 
center  directors,  thanks  to  grants  from  the  New  York  City  Youth  Board,  and,  for 
the  first  time,  professionally  trained  group  workers  as  well. 

The  increase  in  budget  recommended  for  this  operation  in  the  new  year  should 
make  possible  a  major  extension  of  operations.  I  trust  that  these  funds  will 
include  provisions  for  a  larger  staff  at  the  citywide  level.  There  also  is  need  for 
a  pool  of  supervisory  personnel  who  will  be  at  the  disposition  of  the  acting  head 
of  the  bureau,  so  that  manpower  can  he  deployed  from  one  school  district  to 
another  with  a  minimum  of  redtape.  I  believe,  too,  that  consideration  ought  to 
be  given  the  possibility  of  putting  two-man  teams  into  schools  which  have  on 
their  own  initiative  already  developed  community  programs.  These  activities 
should  not  be  confined  to  plants  which  have  full-scale  comprehensive  programs 

Our  school  buildings,  meeting  rooms,  swimming  pools,  auditoriums,  gyms,  and 
playgrounds  should  increasingly  be  made  available  on  a  7-day-per-week  basis, 
with  a  lai'icer  volume  of  evening  operations,  as  well.  This  is  a  tried-and-tested 
program  meriting  all  possible  expansion,  substantially  along  present  lines. 

The  special  contribution  of  group  work. — In  all  our  recreation  programs,  in- 
cluding those  in  the  schools,  I  should  like  to  call  attention  to  the  importance  of 
including  group  work  as  well  as  the  customary  crafts,  dramatics,  and  sports. 
There  are  real  benefits  by  way  of  personal  growth  and  guidance  which  are  likely 
to  be  achieved  only  in  the  club  setting,  among  groups  of  perhaps  only  12  to  20 
people.  Group  workers  who  have,  si>ecial  skills  in  the  field  of  interpersonal 
relations  are  as  indispensable  to  a  balanced  leisure-time  program  as  athletic 
coaches  or  activity  instructors.  In  recruitment  of  personnel,  an  effort,  I  believe, 
should  be  made  to  reach  leaders  who  have  demonstrated  interest,  understanding, 
and  ability  in  the  family  and  the  neighborhood  approaches  to  this  work.^ 

School-building  dcsif/n. — In  planning  school  buildings  for  the  future,  we  should 
continue  to  incorporate  in  the  design  opportunities  for  extended  community  serv- 
ice programs.  Plants  should  provide  facilities  suitable  for  crafts  shops  and  club 
meeting  rooms.  Auditorium,  etc.,  are  already  being  designed  so  that  access  is 
possible  without  an  entire  school  building's  being  thrown  open.  These  details 
are  simple,  but  crucial.  There  is  not  reason  why  the  city  should  invest  millions 
in  special  plant  for  recreation  while  facilities  are  at  hand  or  could  be  at  hand 
in  the  schools. 

Weekend,  holiday  programing. — The  city  is  taking  positive  measures  to  insure 
its  various  youth  programs  remaining  in  operation  7  days  a  week  to  an  increas- 
ing degree.  Where  overtime  costs  have  to  be  met,  they  are  being  budgeted. 
Private  agencies  naturally  determine  their  own  operating  policies,  but  in  view  of 
an  impressive  weight  of  expert  opinion,  I  would  hope  they  would  consider  serious- 
ly the  provision  of  more  weekend  and  holiday  programs.^' 

^*  Those  activities  staffed  with  1  leader  for  every  12  to  20  people  are  obviously  more 
expensive  (on  a  per  capita  basis)  than  those  in  which  a  sinsle  leader  worlds  with  100 
peoide.  A  well-balanced  proarram  will  include  both  clubs  and  square  dancing,  say.  There 
is  an  important  place  for  both  kinds  of  leaders. 

.30  Agencies  in  the  case  work  and  guidance  fields  might  also  give  the  most  serious  con- 
sideration to  the  need  for  scheduling  standby  staff  and  instituting  a  greater  volume  of 
service  during  hours  when  prospective  clients  are  likeliest  to  be  away  from  their  jobs  or 
household  duties. 





A      COMMUNITY    CCNTCn.  NYC    YOyTVt   60ARD   fUNQS 


NYC  YOUTH  ea<^RD  ruNDS 


Adve7iture  playgrounds 

In  recent  years,  there  has  been  a  growing  body  of  opinion  in  the  recreation 
field  calling  for  a  new  approach  to  playgrounds  and  playground  programs.  In 
virtually  erupty  lots,  practically  devoid  of  apparatus,  highly  successful  pro- 
grams have  been  developed  in  Copenhagen,  Denmark,  in  London,  in  Ken- 
sington, in  Crawley,  England,  and  in  Minneapolis,  for  example,  in  our  own 
country.  It  appears  that  children  welcome  the  opportunity  to  use  tools  to  con- 
struct their  own  playhouses — that  attendance  at  such  playgrounds  is  continuous 
and  high.  And  it  is  reported  the  police  find  a  marked  decline  in  so-called  delin- 
quency;  playground  personnel  report  fewer  accidents  (115). 

I  believe  that  serious  consideration  should  be  given  both  to  the  "junk  play- 
ground" and  to  playgrounds  employing  apparatus  of  a  new  type.  These  latter 
are  designed  to  provide  more  opportunities  tor  free  and  dramatic  play,  new 
op[)ortunities  for  grcmp  play  of  a  highly  informal  character.  This  is  not  to  say 
that  the  free-for-all  is  an  ideal  recreation  program,  but  experience  has  shown 
that,  given  the  chance,  children  can  work  out  games  of  their  own  which  may 
prove  even  more  enjoyable  than  the  traditional  swings  or  ball  diamonds.  And 
in  Philadelphia,  for  example,  children  who  otherwise  stay  away,  seem  drawn  to 
projects  of  this  type.  While  the  new  kinds  of  apparatus  have,  in  some  cases, 
proved  more  expensive,  increased  attendance  has  more  than  justified  the  expen- 

New  Yorkers  will  soon  have  an  opportunity  to  get  an  idea  of  the  sort  of  ad- 
vantages enjoyed  by  children  in  Oakland,  Calif.,  Boiceville  N.  Y.,  and  in  Fort 
Wayne,  Ind.  When  it  opens,  public  school  130  in  the  Bronx  will  have  as  part  of 
its  playground  plant  the  first  and  third  prize  items  from  last  year's  national  com- 
petition for  new  designs  in  play  sculpture ;  officials  of  the  National  Recreation 
Association  and  the  Museum  of  Modern  Art  were  among  the  judges. 

Certain  illegal  activities,  like  hitching  a  ride  on  the  back  of  a  bus,  seem  to 
provide  an  excitement  with  which  playgrounds  and  recreation  programs  of  a 
cut  and  dried  character  don't  seem  to  be  able  to  compete.  There  is  a  kind 
of  thrill,  I  suppose,  in  breaking  the  law  ;  that  is  a  thrill  we  cannot  permit.  But 
surely  we  have  an  obligation  seriously  to  consider  every  sort  of  project  and  pro- 
gram that  bears  promise  of  meeting  that  very  human  desire  for  a  safe  scare,  a 
limited  habard.  After  all.  not  every  child  who  may  want  to  gets  the  chance  to 
spend  a  day  at  Coney  Island. 

Problems  of  preschool-age  children 

At  a  later  date  I  wish  to  report  on  the  importance  of  some  recent  researches 
dealing  with  healthy  infants  confined  in  institutions  or  hospitals  away  from 
their  parents  for  long  periods  while  still  of  very  tender  age.  It  seems  that  a  child 
who  misses  out  on  some  really  close  and  personalized  affection  in  his  first  year 
or  two  is  pretty  likely  to  turn  out  to  be  an  emotional  cripple.  This  extremely 
small  segment  of  our  ijopulation  has  produced  a  disproportionately  large  number 
of  criminals  and  maladjusted  individuals.  Certainly,  we  already  know  enough 
to  endorse  most  vigorously  the  endeavors  of  welfare  workers  seeking  foster  care 
in  private  homes  for  all  homeless  well  infants. 

Both  the  health  department  and  the  hospitals  department  have  called  my 
attention  to  the  fact  that  considerable  sums  are  being  expended  to  maintain  com- 
pletely healthy  but  homeless  babies  in  our  hospitals  because  of  lack  of  facilities 
for  foster  home  care.^  It  is  nothing  short  of  fantastic  to  contemplate  the  pros- 
pect of  helpless  infants  being  institutionalized  for  lengthy  periods  simply  because 
we  have  been  lax  in  making  adequate  appropriations  for  personnel  who  could 
arrange  for  care  in  homes.  Yet  the  latter  course  would  not  only  be  the  more 
humane,  but  would  cost  the  city  far  less  money. 

An  important  welfare  department  program  which  will  be  discussed  in  the 
above  mentioned  report  provides  for  1,000  dependent  children  who  cannot  be 
cared  for  in  their  own  homes.  The  problem  is  especially  pressing  in  the  case  of 
children  from  certain  minority  groups — doubly  so  for  older  children,  whom 
prospective  foster  parents  often  feel  are  "less  attractive."  The  Children's  Shelter 
is  dangerously  overcrowded,  yet  the  bottleneck  in  the  foster  home  field  has  still 
to  be  broken ;  capable  professionals  are  needed  for  a  home-finding  program. 
Of  all  this,  more  at  another  time. 

''°  In  addition  there  are  children  who  could  be  returned  to  their  own  homes  if  certain 
si>ecial  services    (more  part-time  "homemakers"  for  example)   were  available. 


Welfare  Department 

The  staff  of  our  welfare  department  come  in  contact  with  numbers  of  families 
whose  children  are  in  high  hazard  of  becoming  delinquents.  While  such  fam- 
ilies represent  only  a  small  fraction  of  the  total  number  of  children  who  receive 
service  from  the  department,  it  is  important  that  every  effort  be  made  to  use  the 
regular  contacts  to  advantage.  The  city  funds  expended  for  DW  staff  who  work 
with  families  must  be  sufl5cient  to  employ  workers  with  skill  to  recognize  the 
danger  signals  of  strain  and  maladjustment  in  children  and  in  families  which 
require  treatment  and  to  take  the  necessary  steps  to  help  these  families.  These 
woi'kers  must  also  have  the  ability  to  recognize  which  problems  can  be  treated 
by  the  department  and  those  which  require  the  help  of  other  public  and  private 
social  agencies  within  the  community. 

The  special  program  this  department  has  been  operating  jointly  with  the 
youth  board  has  provided  a  real  idea  of  what  can  be  done  by  competent  social 
workers,  assigned  caseloads  of  reasonable  size.  Inasmuch  as  the  services  for 
families  and  children  is  in  the  process  of  reorganization,  I  am  at  this  time 
deferring  specific  recommendations  with  reference  to  the  welfare  department's 

The  pilot  study  recently  initiated  by  this  department  which  provides  pre- 
ventive service  on  an  intensive  basis  to  certain  children  in  public-assistance 
families  has  also  demonstrated  what  can  be  accomijlished  by  competent  child- 
welfare  workers. 

In  concluding  this  section,  mention  should  be  made  of  an  important  welfare 
demonstration  just  a  few  years  ago.  An  attempt  was  made  to  bring  together, 
under  one  roof,  a  staff  that  included  health,  counseling,  employment,  housing, 
relief,  legal,  and  recreation  specialists.  A  neighbor  in  need  could  come  to  this 
center  and  employ  the  skills  of  a  whole  battery  of  experts  working  together  in 
rooms  just  across  the  hall  from  one  another.  The  person  in  trouble  didn't  find 
himself  shuttling  all  over  town  and  spending  a  couple  of  weeks  getting  help 
from  half  a  dozen  different  organizations. 

The  experiment  to  which  I  have  referred  was  not  a  project  of  the  welfare 
department ;  the  department  merely  was  one  of  the  participating  agencies. 
But  I  know  how  enthusiastically  Welfare  Commissioner  McCarthy  responded 
to  this  opportunity.  I  believe  that  a  program  along  the  indicated  lines  can  be 
a  sound  one ;  we  should  muster  the  necessary  forces  once  again. 

Service  opportunities  for  youth 

There  is  good  reason  to  believe  that  contributory  to  juvenile  delinquency 
in  many  cases  are  feelings  of  fear  and  hatred  toward  adults,  a  sense  of  being 
divorced  from  society  (or  at  least  from  the  adult  community),  and  a  pervasive 
personal  insecurity  in  many  vital  aspects  of  the  life  of  a  youth.  Programs 
oriented  to  the  changing  of  these  attitudes  would  seem  likely  to  make  significant 

Youth-serving  organizations  have  for  some  time  been  concerned  about  provid- 
ing young  people  with  service  opportunities.  Meaningful  work,  in  units  that 
permit  a  person  a  sense  of  achievement,  has  long  been  recognized  as  contributing 
to  an  individual's  self-respect.  Yet  there  are  only  slim  chances  of  young  people 
being  involved  in  projects  of  a  service  character  that  are  truly  appealing  to 
youth  themselves.  Many  adult-conceived  enterprises  reportedly  have  the  look 
of  made  work  to  young  people,  or  are  intended  to  serve  ends  which  the  adult 
may  appreciate  but  which  may  remain  obscure  to  youth. 

Giving  youth  a  chance  to  help  implies  work  we  ourselves  regard  as  of  vital 
importance,  not  some  incidental  tidying-up  operation.  Giving  youth  a  chance  to 
help  means  accepting  the  possibility  they  will  make  mistakes  on  the  job  now 
and  again — and  it  means  being  willing  to  accept  the  mistakes.  Giving  youth  a 
chance  to  help  means  designing  projects  with  an  eye  to  youth  participation  in 
leadership  and  control,  not  service  time  and  again  as  handmaiden  only. 

Perhaps  city  departments  will  have  youth  service  projects  of  their  own  to 
suggest.  But  a  variety  of  statutory  limitations  upon  the  city  make  this  area  of 
operation  one  probably  more  feasible  for  private  organization.  I  know  from 
our  discussions  with  them  that  a  number  of  social  agencies  would  be  inter- 
ested in  reviewing  with  any  interested  donor  a  number  of  service  programs 
presently  awaiting  sponsorship. 

A  kind  of  service  prcjject  which  might  also  be  more  largely  developed  under 
private  auspices  is  self-service — by  youth  for  youth.  There  have  been  occasions 
in  the  history  of  the  youth  board's  street  clubs  project,  when  a  group  which, 
perhaps,  had  been  hanging  out  in  candy  stores  or  on  the  curb,  got  together  and 


set  up  their  own  clubhouse  in  a  vacant  store  front.  Neighborhood  merchants 
sometimes  provided  paint  and  the  brushes  with  which  the  boys  worked.  Some 
undertaliings  along  these  lines  were  eminently  successful;  upon  occasion,  the 
outcome  left  something  to  be  desired.  In  principle,  however,  an  opportunity  for 
youth  to  operate  directly  upon  their  own  concerns  would  seem  to  be  worth  the 
planning.  Certainly  there  is  a  tremendous  range  of  possibilities  in  the  schools- 
if  adult  advisors  can  accord  youth  any  sizable  area  of  free  operation. 

The  most  ambitious  efforts  in  the  service  area  are  work  camps.  Under  private 
auspices,  mostly  by  denominational  service  committees,  important  projects  have 
been  undertaken  by  small  work  crews  in  resident  settings.  And  some  years  ago, 
under  public  auspices,  there  were  the  resident  work  centers  of  the  National  Youth 
Administration,  and  the  forestry  camps  of  the  Civilian  Conservation  Corps. 
I'eople  who  have  spent  many  years  at  youth  work  feel  vei-y  strongly  that  a 
broadened  conception  of  one's  place  in  the  world  is  provided  by  projects  along 
these  lines,  perhaps  more  effectively  than  in  any  other  way. 

To  live  among  one's  peers ;  to  be  continuously  in  the  company  of  a  few 
friendly,  helpful,  genuinely  interested  adults;  to  have  an  opportunity  both  to 
work  and  to  learn ;  to  be  working  at  something  both  interesting  and  important 
(like  building  new  cabins  in  a  children's  camp)  ;  to  have  some  fun  in  a  place 
in  some  sense  one's  own  ;  these  are  the  attraction  work  camps  offer  youth. 

While  the  city  cannot  undertake  any  major  program  along  these  lines  in  the 
forseeable  future,  several  private  agencies  have  indicated  an  interest  in  this 
sort  of  project,  if  they  had  the  money.  This  is  one  of  a  number  of  projects 
I  feel  should  be  brought  to  the  attention  of  the  people  of  New  York,  in  the 
event  new  resources  could  be  made  available  to  the  interested  private  agencies. 


I  have  not  discussed  the  financing  of  various  programs  in  detail.  Most  will 
be  found  to  come  under  formulas  for  State  reimbursement.  A  number  relate  to 
areas  which  may  be  covered  by  Federal  programs  presently  under  discussion, 
especially  the  Kefauver  bill  (S.  728)  which  not  only  provides  for  subsidizing^ 
programs  but  details  adequate  administrative  procedures  as  well." 

That  we  will  cooperate  with  the  Govnernor's  juvenile  delinquency  study  com- 
mittee goes  without  saying.  But  there  are  even  now  1  or  2  matters  of  special 

The  New  York  City  Youth  Board,  for  example  (which  is  the  hub  about  which 
our  whole  program  revolves)  carries  on  from  year  to  year  as  a  temporary  agency 
because  of  the  terms  of  pertinent  legislation  at  the  State  level.  As  a  result  the 
city  departments  operating  programs  under  youth  board  subvention — and  the 
private  agencies,  to  an  even  greater  extent,  are  left  continually  uncertain  in  the 
projection  of  any  even  moderately  long-range  plans. 

One  specific  project  which  might  be  undertaken  in  a  State  agency  would 
be  the  inauguration  of  special  units  in  the  public  employment  service  to  provide 
personnel  in  a  position  to  find  jobs  and  carry  on  the  necessary  follow-up  on  the 
employment  problems  of  maladjusted  youth.  A  few  private  services  are  doing 
a  notable  job  in  this  field,  but  their  resources  are  pitifully  small.  Those  who 
know  the  field  assure  me  there  are  young  people  ready  and  able  to  go  to 
work  who  are  getting  into  trouble  simply  because  we  have  no  really  efEective, 
thoughtful,  patient  placement  program  to  help  them. 

The  New  York  City  Mental  Health  Board  will  play  an  important  part  in  the 
development  of  programs  for  maladjusted  youth. 

For  example,  there  are  virtually  no  treatment  programs  for  older  boys  with 
emotional  disorders  leading  to  violent  behavior — yet  many  youths  who  fall  into 
this  category  could  be  taken  care  of  without  being  sent  to  an  institution.  There 
is  a  similar  lack  of  facilities  for  boys  who  could  make  a  decent  adjust  to  society 
if  there  was  a  cluli  of  some  sort  where  they  could  live  and  have  some  counseling 
help,  while  continuing  on  their  jobs  or  at  school.  Their  families  have  failed 
them,  and  in  this  small  but  significant  number  of  cases,  their  homes  seem  simply 
out  of  the  question  for  the  boys  involved. 

Still  another  need  is  for  large-scale  professional  training  programs  over  rela- 
tively long  periods ;  the  youth  board  institutes  I  have  recommended  are  not 
designed  to  take  college  students  and  make  psychiatrists,  caseworkers,  and  the 

« It  would  be  well  to  bear  in  mind,  however,  that  only  $5  million  would  be  made  available 
for  all  48  States  together,  if  the  bill  were  passed. 




WHAT  $2500  A  YEAR  WILL   PAY   FOR 





FOR   85  KIDS 




330   YOUTH     WORKERS 



like  out  of  thera."  They  may  not  even  be  in  a  position  to  provide  the  major 
retraining  vphicli  many  professionals  seem  to  need  in  order  to  worli  with  some 
more  violent  youths. 

We  have  profited  in  this  study  by  consultation  with  Dr.  Lemkau,  and  I  have 
mentioned  specific  areas  here  more  by  way  of  example  than  as  specific  recom- 
mendations to  the  mental  health  board.  As  its  own  studies  proceed,  I  am  sure 
it  will  move  in  on  a  whole  series  of  problems  in  our  common  effort  to  provide 
better  services  for  delinquent  and  predelinquent  youth. 


We  use  the  term  "juvenile  delinquent"  to  apply  to  children  and  youths  guilty 
of  a  wide  range  of  misbehavior.  Most  of  these  young  people  fall  within  the 
normal  intelligence  range.  Their  delinquency,  in  the  overwhelming  majority 
of  cases,  is  not  the  outcome  of  any  piiysical  or  hereditary  defect.  Most  of  the 
attitudes  we  deplore  are  not  in  any  sense  a  reflection  of  brain  disorders. 

"Most  juvenile  delinquents  are  *  *  *  potentially  normal  persons  whose  back- 
ground is  lacking  in  stabilizing  influences  both  culturally  and  economically." 

We  would  do  well  to  bear  in  mind  the  words  of  a  distinguished  psychologist  ^' 
from  the  National  Institute  of  Mental  Health,  "Delinquency  is  as  general  a  term 
as  bellyache."  It  is  important  in  approaching  this  problem  that  we  bear  in  mind 
that  the  same  delinquency  may  mean  different  things  in  the  lives  of  different 
boys.  Stealing,  for  example,  may  be  the  compulsive  act  of  a  habitual  neurotic; 
or  it  may  be  the  impulsive  satisfying  of  a  whim,  a  purely  transitory  phenomenon. 
It  may  represent  a  response  to  what  a  youngster  conceives  to  be  a  challenge  to  his 
ingenuity ;  or  it  may  be  a  hostile  gesture  against  an  unfriendly  adult ;  or  it  may 
be  the  irresponsible  "borrowing"  of  someone  else's  auto  for  an  evening's  joyride. 

A  crime  is  a  crime  and  the  wrongdoer  must  be  made  to  answer  for  it.  Yet  in  a 
very  real  sense,  "circumstances  alter  cases"  and  the  approach  to  rehabilitation 
for  one  offender  may  prove  fantastically  inappropriate  in  the  case  of  another. 

In  considering  remedial  measures  we  will  do  well  to  proceed  planfully,  not 
acting  on  imi)ulse,  or  going  overboard  for  some  precious  scheme  which  is  designed 
to  wrap  up  the  whole  juvenile  delinquency  problem  in  one  neat  package.  We 
will  really  start  off  on  the  wrong  foot  if  we  presume  that  there  is  a  single  appro- 
priate approach  to  this  riddle. 

There  are  hard  facts  to  be  faced.  Probably  the  most  authoritative  review 
of  work  in  progress  in  this  field,  prepared  by  the  United  States  Children's  Bureau 
points  out  that : 

"The  causes  of  delinquency  are  numerous  both  in  toto  and  within  the  individual 
case.  This  makes  it  unlikely  that  any  program  will  achieve  spectacular  results. 
Most  programs  are  single-focused.  They  aim  at  the  elimination  or  amelioration 
of  some  condition  that  the  backers  regard  as  especially  important  in  delinquency 
causation.  Since,  however,  these  conditions  do  not  operate  in  isolation — either 
in  the  community  or  within  the  individual  child  and  family — it  is  not  to  be 
expected  that  any  single  approach  to  delinquency  prevention  will  be  strikingly 

Helping  rehabilitate  delinquents,  preventing  youth  in  hazard  from  taking 
the  delinquent  path,  requires  focusing  of  skills  from  a  numlier  of  fields.  The 
teacher's  knowledge  in  encouraging  the  acquisition  of  essential  skills  for  living ; 
the  social  worker's  understanding  of  the  interplay  of  emotion  and  action ;  the 
psychiatrist's  insight  into  the  deeper  motives  of  behavior ;  the  psychologist's 
skill  in  evaluating  mental  processes — no  one  alone  suffices. 

Programs  to  cope  with  delinquency  may  stand  or  fall  depending  ui)on  the 
breadth  of  vision  of  professionals  in  those  and  other  fields.  Children  will  be 
receiving  something  less  than  the  best  we  can  offer,  unless  these  specialists 
(along  with  religious  leaders,  guidance  counselors,  police  and  court  oflScers) 
are,  as  people,  big  enough  to  pull  together  on  a  team,  to  share  one  another's 

Services  to  delinquent  and  pre-delinquent  youth  have  crucial  implications  for 
the  future  of  our  city  : 

"Lest  the  generations  of  these  maimed  in  childhood,  each  making  the  next 
in  its  own  image,  create  upon  the  darkness,  like  mirrors  locked  face  to  face,  an 
infinite  corridor  of  despair." 

"  Our  projected  school  of  social  work  at  Hunter  College  will  not  be  in  position  to  even 
start  meeting  this  need  for  at  least  18  months. 
«  Fritz  Redl. 






Chairman  Kefauver.  I  am  cognizant  of  the  fact  that  the  New 
Yotk  Legislatnre  did  unusually  fine  work  in  the  area  of  crime  and 
horror  comic  books  and  pornographic  literature  earlier  in  the  year. 
Assemblyman  James  Fitzpatrick's  committee  of  the  State  legislature 
did  a  great  deal  of  serious,  conscientious  work  in  this  field. 

We  have  come  here  with  no  intention  of  criticizing  New  York  or 
any  other  one  city  or  area;  rather,  we  are  here  to  show  a  nationwide 
picture.  We  seek  and  we  feel  we  are  entitled  to  receive  the  full 
cooperation  of  all  public  officials  and  thoughtful  citizens  throughout 
the  Nation  in  this  effort.  Juvenile  delinquency  in  general  and 
pornographic  literature  in  particular  are  problems  facing  every  sec- 
tion. No  one  area  should  be  singled  out  for  censure.  We  must  work 
together  on  a  cooperative  basis  to  solve  this  perplexing  problem. 

I  would  like  to  say  at  this  time  that  no  Senator  has  given  more 
thoughtful  attention  to  juvenile  delinquency  than  my  distinguished 
colleague.  Senator  William  Langer,  of  North  Dakota,  who  is  here 
with  us  today.  Senator  Langer  has  personally  conducted  many 
hearings  into  this  problem  in  all  parts  of  the  country.  He  has  spent 
many  hours  conferring  with  those  who  have  worked  in  this  field 
and  has  conscientiously  prepared  valuable  reports  on  this  subject. 

Since  assuming  the  chairmanship  of  the  Senate  Subcommittee  To 
Investigate  Juvenile  Delinquency  in  February  of  this  year  I  have  be- 
come increasingly  concerned  during  each  ]:)assing  week  with  the  effect 
pornogTaphic  material  has  on  American  adolescents  and  juveniles,  and 
with  the  widespread  distribution  of  this  insidious  filth.  Therefore, 
some  2  montlis  ago  we  directed  the  subcommittee  staff — and  I  think 
we  have  a  very  excellent  staff;  several  of  the  members  being  here,  our 
chief  counsel,  Mr.  James  Bobo,  on  my  left — to  make  an  intensive 
investigation  in  this  field. 

Those  of  us  on  the  subcommittee  first  became  acutely  aware  of  this 
problem  while  doing  the  preparatory 'work  for  the  hearings  on  crime 
and  horror  comic  books.  In  the  course  of  our  investigation  on  pornog- 
raphy the  subconunittee  has  sent  out  more  than  200  questionnaires 
to  police  chiefs  in  cities  with  a  large  population,  and  to  more  than  250 
chiefs  in  small  cities,  rural  areas,  and  university  communities.  An 
unusually  high  percentage  of  this  group  is  cooperating. 

I  say  without  hesitance  that  I  have  been  shocked  and  deeply  dis- 
turbed personally  by  their  findings. 

The  entire  problem  was  pointed  up  by  Mr.  J.  Edgar  Hoover,  Direc- 
tor of  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation,  when  he  said : 

The  publication  and  distribution  of  salacious  material  is  a  peculiarly  vicious 
evil :  the  destruction  of  moral  character  caused  by  it  among  young  people  cannot 
l)e  overestimated.  The  circulation  of  periodicals  containing  such  material  plays 
an  important  part  in  the  development  of  crime  among  the  youth  of  our  country. 

Many  people  are  under  the  imjH-ession  that  pornographic  rnovies, 
so-called  party  records,  pictures  showing  unnatural  sexual  activities, 
and  other  material  of  this  sort  is  produced  primarily  for  stag  parties 
and  men's  smokers.  The  effect  of  this  material  on  adults  is  un- 
doubtedly degi-ading,  but  the  long-range  impact  on  juveniles  is  far 
more  serious;  and  that  is  what  we  are  considering  here  today. 

We  shall  show  by  these  hearings  that  a  large  portion  of  the  market 
for  this  material  is  with  the  inquisitive  and  impressionable  teenagers. 
This  means  that  after  young  people  have  been  exposed  to  these  porno- 
graphic pictures  and  movies  showing  all  types  of  perversion,  they 


may  tend  to  regard  these  things  as  normal.     Indeed  the  influence  is  to 
lead  them  to  embrace  the  abnormal  and  thus  mar  youthful  lives. 

We  are  calling  witnesses  who  can  testify  to  the  effect  this  material 
has  on  the  thinking  and  the  habits  of  youngsters.  I  think  it  is  time 
that  this  whole  sordid  business  in  insidious  filth  be  brought  into  the 
open.  The  traffic  in  pornography  has  been  growing  by  hundreds  of 
thousands  of  dollars  annually  since  the  war. 

Wliile  this  traffic  has  been" growing,  sex  crimes  have  increased  with 
almost  unbelievable  rapidity.  The  statistics  speak  for  themselves. 
A  survey  by  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation  recently  showed  that 
during  1953  a  sex  criminal  was  arrested  somewhere  in  our  Nation 
every  *6.7  minutes,  day  and  night.  Rape  cases  have  increased  110  per- 
cent'since  1937.  More  rapes  are  now  being  committed  by  18-  and  19- 
year-old  boys  than  by  males  in  any  other  age  group,  and  the  percen- 
age  of  rapists  under' 20  has  approximately  doubled  since  1940.  The 
impulses  which  spur  people  to  sex  crimes  unquestionably  are  intensi- 
fied by  reading  and  seeing  filthy  material.  Certainly  something  must 
be  done  about  this  filth. 

The  control  of  pornography  rests  with  three  distinct  yet  intercon- 
necting groups.  They  are:  (1)  The  Federal  Government;  (2)  States 
and  local  communities;  and  (3)  the  individual.  Generally,  none  have 
shown  sufficient  awareness  of  this  acute  situation. 

In  this  respect  I  believe  that  the  Federal  Government  has  been  the 
chief  offender.  On  the  Federal  level  we  can  stop  the  importation  of 
this  salacious  material  by  adequate  legislation  and  increased  enforce- 
ment. The  Federal  Government  must  also  be  concerned  about  the  dis- 
tribution of  pornographic  material  through  the  mails  and  its  trans- 
portation by  private  automobile  in  interstate  commerce. 

Basically,  however,  it  is  the  responsibility  of  the  Federal  Govern- 
ment to  provide  leadership  in  the  overall  effort  to  combat  the  distribu- 
tion of  pornographic  material. 

On  the  State  level,  there  is  desperate  need  for  improved  State  stat- 
utes. Several  States  are  showing  the  way  in  this  respect,  and  the  signs 
are  becoming  more  hopeful  in  many  others. 

I^cal  law  enforcement  and  the  public  interest  in  this  problem  still 
tends  to  be  spasmodic  and  insufficient.  This  subcommittee  means  to 
do  its  best  to  insure  that  the  Federal  Government  assumes  its  respon- 
sibility. I  have  great  confidence  that  when  the  facts  are  known  others 
will  be  willing  and  anxious  to  do  their  part. 

It  is  my  strong  feeling  and  the  feeling  of  my  colleagues  on  the  sub- 
committee that  the  most  plausible  solution  is  Federal  legislation  which 
will  stamp  out  the  traffic.  We  already  have  several  possible  bills  in 
mind  designed  to  plug  the  gaping  loopholes  in  existing  legislation. 
This  subcommittee  has  already  reported  2  bills — Senate  bills  599  and 
GOO — which  are  aimed  at  tightening  Federal  control  of  pornographic 
materials  in  interstate  commerce.  These  bills  were  passed  by  the  Sen- 
ate and  now  await  action  of  the  House  of  Representatives. 

We  have  come  to  New  York  City  to  hold  these  hearings  because  of 
the  national  and  international  character  of  this  racket.  While  it  is 
ti'ue  tliat  New  York  City  has  a  great  deal  of  difficulty  with  the  dis- 
tribution of  pornographic  material,  this  is  also  true  in  a  great  many 
other  cities  in  the  Nation.  This  i)roblem  is  both  local  and  national. 
Since  New  York  is  the  most  important  port  of  entry,  the  subcommittee 
felt  the  national  effort  would  be  best  helped  by  holding  these  hearings 


here.  Several  parts  of  the  country,  inchiding  tlie  area  around  New 
York,  are  used  as  distribution  points  to  channel  the  flow  of  smut  into 
villages  and  hamlets  across  our  great  land.  The  Federal  Governmeiit 
is  responsible  for  stopping  tlie  influx  of  this  material  through  the 
ports  of  entry  and  for  its  movement  in  interstate  commerce. 

We  intend  later  to  hold  additional  hearings  on  pornography  in  other 
parts  of  the  Nation. 

At  the  very  outset  let  me  make  clear  that  the  term  "pornography" 
as  it  will  be  used  in  these  hearings  does  not  refer  to  legitimate  maga- 
zines and  books,  although  many  of  these  border  on  the  pornographic. 
This  hearing  will  not  even  deal  with  the  so-called  art  and  health  books, 
though  some  of  them  appear  to  be  nothing  more  than  a  shrewd  cover 
for  pornography.  Certainly  we  have  no  thought  of  censorship  of  any 
sort  in  mind.  No  one  is  more  interested  in  the  fullest  freedom  of  the 
press  than  Senator  Langer  and  me,  but  freedom  of  the  press  does  not 
mean  a  license  for  indecency.  Rather,  we  are  concerned  with  pub- 
lications and  movies  which  everyone  will  agree  portray  and  describe 
the  basest  sexual  acts  of  perversions. 

I  have  been  greatly  disturbed  as  I  have  looked  through  examples  of 
material  confiscated  throughout  the  Nation  in  police  raids.  I  can- 
not commend  highly  enough  the  many  police  chiefs  who  have  coop- 
erated so  splendidly  with  our  subcommittee  and  with  our  staff.  Most 
are  acutely  aware  of  the  seriousness  of  the  situation.  When  I  realize 
that  much  of  the  pornographic  material  is  actually  designed  for  the 
impressionable  juvenile  mind,  it  is  certainly  obvious  that  these  ma- 
terials could  do  incalculable  damage  to  the  moral  and  phychological 
fabric  of  our  society  through  their  elfect  on  youngsters. 

A  large  mail-order  business  in  pornography  is  flourishing  in  every 
section  of  our  land.  We  have  received  from  many  irate  parents  ex- 
amples of  advertisements  sent  through  the  mail  trying  to  sell  all  sorts 
of  filth  to  the  very  young.  From  our  own  State  of  Tennessee  have 
come  numerous  advertisements  of  this  material  mailed  orginally  to 

Not  only  do  children  see  movies  made  by  the  pornographers,  but  we 
have  examples  of  the  obvious  use  of  children  ranging  from  14  to  18 
years  of  age  participating  in  the  making  of  the  poronographic  films. 
Youngsters  are  used  a  great  deal  to  peddle  the  filth  to  other  chil- 

Pornography  is  only  one  of  the  subjects  with  which  this  subcom- 
mittee is  dealing.  We  have  held  extensive  hearings  on  youth  employ- 
ment, the  effect  of  television  on  young  minds,  runaway  children, 
juvenile  courts,  problems  among  Indian  cliildren,  public  and  private 
social  and  welfare  agencies,  and  other  subjects.  The  subcommittee 
also  has  dealt  with  the  overall  problem  in  some  20  communities ;  but 
certainly  pornography  is  an  important  phase. 

In  summary,  let  me  say  that  in  our  hearings  on  pornography  here 
and  elsewhere  we  shall  explore  principally  these  five  fields : 

First,  the  magnitude  of  the  traffic  in  obscene  and  lewd  publications, 
pictures,  records,  and  movies. 

Second,  the  international  and  interstate  ramifications  of  porno- 
graphy, its  production,  distribution,  and  sale. 

Third,  the  impact  of  this  material  on  juveniles  and  the  use  of  juve- 
niles in  this  traffic. 


Fourth,  expanded  Federal  legislation  designed  to  eliminate  this  can- 
cerous growth  on  our  social  fabric. 

Fifth,  advising  law-enforcement  officials,  parents,  and  others  of  the 
situation  because  on  them  eventual  success  will  rest. 

This,  I  am  sure  all  of  you  realize,  is  a  delicate  subject  with  which 
we  are  dealing.  I  feel  confident  that  the  press,  the  witnesses  and  all 
others  will  handle  this  problem  according  to  the  highest  tenets  of 
good  taste.  I  do  not  want  to  arouse  any  curiosity  among  those  groups 
which  have  not  seen  this  sort  of  literature.  On  the  other  hand,  I  do 
not  want  to  be  like  the  proverbial  ostrich  and  hide  our  heads  in  the 
sand  to  avoid  the  perplexing  problem. 

At  one  time  there  were  those  wlio  said  narcotics  as  a  problem  should 
be  avoided.  That  is,  publicity  about  it.  Others  have  proposed  closing 
their  eyes  to  the  existence  of  venereal  disease.  Experience  and  the 
tests  of  time  have  shown  that  only  by  facing  up  to  these  problems  can 
they  be  solved.  Intensive  educational  campaigns  have  reduced  the 
incidence  of  venereal  disease.  A  public  awareness  of  all  that  is  in- 
volved in  narcotics  addiction  has  been  proved  to  be  a  vast  help  in 
this  field. 

This  subcommittee  proposes  to  handle  pornography  in  an  adult,  en- 
lightened, and  restrained  fashion.  No  evil  can  be  cured  by  being- 
ignored.  I  believe  that  the  healthful  sunshine  of  public  opinion  is 
the  best  cure  for  this  problem  or  any  other.  We  are  determined  to 
arrive  at  some  substantial  results  from  these  hearings. 

Let  me  say  in  the  begining  that  because  of  the  rules  of  the  building 
we  cannot  have  smoking  in  the  courtroom.  That  is  difficult  for  some, 
including  the  chairman. 

iVlso,  some  names  will  necessarily  be  used  by  witnesses.  For  that 
purpose,  for  that  reason  we  will  swear  the  witnesses,  place  them  under 
oath,  and  they  will  testify.  Anyone  whose  name  is  brought  out,  if  he 
feels  that  his  position  has  not  been  properly  presented,  if  he  will  let 
the  staff  of  the  committee  know  we  will  immediately  give  him  an 
opportunity  of  being  heard. 

Our  staff'  has  scanned  the  evidence,  gone  over  it  as  fairly  as  possible. 
We  don't  want  to  do  anyone  an  injustice.  If  anyone  feels  that  their 
position  has  not  been  properly  presented,  they  will  be  allowed  to 
testify  immediately. 

We  are  honored  to  have  the  movie  cameras  and  the  TV  here  with 
us.  To  the  extent  that  it  is  feasible  and  possible,  we  want  all  media 
of  publication  to  participate;  but  any  witness  who  feels  that  he  or 
she  would  be  embarrassed  or  discommoded  by  the  lights  or  by  tele- 
vision and  the  movie  cameras,  if  they  will  let  the  staff  or  the  subcom- 
mittee know,  they  will  not  be  asked  to  testify  for  television. 

Also,  some  of  these  lights  are  pretty  warm  at  times. 

Senator  Langer,  do  you  wish  to  may  any  comments  before  we  start? 

Senator  Langer.  No,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  think  I  would  probably  better  swear  you  re- 

(At  this  point  Chairman  Kefauver  swore  Maxwell  S.  Lipton  and 
H.  Schneider  to  duly  report  the  hearings  of  the  subcommittee.) 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Bobo,  do  you  have  any  comments  about 
the  hearings  before  we  start  ? 

65263 — 55 4 


I  might  say  that  our  hearing  today  will  have  to  be  cut  short  at 
about  12 :  30  because  Senator  Langer  and  I  have  to  return  to  the 
Senate  to  be  counted  for  a  vote,  which  will  be  held  at  about  3  o'clock. 
We  will  have  to  recess  here  about  12 :  30.  We  will  have  a  break  at 
about  11,  and  then  we  will  resume  and  carry  on  through  until  12 :  30, 

Tomorrow  we  have,  unfortunately,  the  same  situation.  We  will 
begin  at  9  and  will  carry  on,  have  a  short  lunch  period  and  carry  on 
until  about  3 ;  then  we  have  to  return  to  Washington  for  another  vote. 

We  will  be  back  for  the  hearings  to  start  at  9  o'clock  Thursday. 

Mr.  Bobo,  do  you  have  a  certain  resolution  that  you  want  to  read 
into  the  record  ? 

Mr.  BoBO.  Yes ;  I  have. 

Resolved  by  the  subcommittee  of  the  Committee  on  the  Judiciary 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Just  state  what  it  is. 

Mr.  BoBO.  This  is  a  resolution  authorizing  the  sitting  of  this  sub- 
committee in  New  York,  with  Senator  Estes  Kefauver  and  such  other 
members  as  are  present  and  are  authorized  to  take  sworn  testimony,  a 
copy  of  which  is  here  agreed  to  by  the  full  membership  of  the  sub- 

Chairman  Kefatjver.  Also  let  a  copy  of  the  resolution  creating  the 
subcommittee  and  the  appointment  of  the  subcommittee  membere  be 
made  a  part  of  the  record  at  this  point. 

(The  documents  referred  to  were  marked  "Exhibit  No.  2,"  and  read 
as  follows:) 

Exhibit  No.  2 

[S.  Res.  89,  83d  Cong.,  1st  sess.] 

[Omit  the  imrt  .struck  through  and  insert  the  part  printed  in  itahc] 


Resolved,  That  the  Committee  on  the  Juchciary,  or  anv  duly  authorized  sub- 
committee thereof,  is  authorized  and  directed  to  conduct  a  full  and  complete  study 
of  juvenile  delinquency  in  the  United  States.  In  the  conduct  of  such  investiga- 
tion special  attention  shall  be  given  to  (1)  determining  the  extent  and  character  of 
juvenile  delinquency  in  the  United  States  and  its  causes  and  contributing  factors, 
(2)  the  adequacv  of  existing  provisions  of  law,  including  chapters  402  and  403  of 
title  18  of  the  Ufnited  States  Code,  in  dealing  with  youthful  offenders  of  Federal 
laws,  (3)  sentences  imposed  on,  or  otlier  correctional  action  taken  with  respect  to, 
youthful  offender  by  Federal  courts,  and  (4)  the  extent  to  which  juveniles  are  vio- 
lating laws  relating  to  the  sale  or  use  of  narcotics. 

*Sec.  £.  The  committee,  or  any  duly  authorized  subcommittee  thereof,  is  authorized 
to  sit  and  act  at  such  places  and  times  during  the  sessions,  recesses,  and  adjourned 
periods  of  the  Senate,  to  hold  such  hearings,  to  require  by  subpenas  or  otherwise  the 
attendance  of  such  witnesses  and  the  production  of  such  books,  papers,  and  documents, 
to  administer  such  oaths,  to  take  such  testimony,  to  procure  such  printing  and  binding, 
and,  within  the  amount  appropriated  therefor,  to  ynake  such  expenditures  as  it  deems 
advisable.  The  cost  of  stenographic  services  to  report  hearings  of  the  committee  or  sub- 
committee  shall  not  be  in  excess  of  40  cents  per  hundred  words.  Subpenas  shall  be 
issiied  by  the  chairman  of  the  committee  or  the  subcommittee,  and  may  be  served  by  any 
person  designated  by  such  chairrnan. 

A  majority  of  the  members  of  the  committee,  or  duly  authorized  subcommittee  thereof, 
shall  constitute  a  quorum  for  the  transaction  of  business,  except  that  a  lesser  number 
to  be  fixed  by  the  committee  or  by  such  subcommittee,  shall  constitute  a  quoiumfor  the 
purpose  of  administei ing  oaths  and  taking  sworn  testimony. 

Sec.  3'.?.  The  Committee  shall  report  its  findings,  together  with  its  recom- 
mendations for  such  legislation  as  it  deems  advisable,  to  the  Senate  at  the  earliest 
date  jjracticable  but  not  later  than  March  1,  1954. 

Sec.  ;*  4.  For  the  purposes  of  this  resolution,  the  Committee,  or  any  duly  author- 
ized subcommittee  thereof,  is  authorized  to  employ  upon  a  temporary  basis  such 
technical,  clerical,  and  other  assistants  as  it  deems  advisable.     The  expenses  of 


the  Committee  under  this  resoUition,  which  shall  not  exceed  $50,000,  shall  be  paid 
from  the  contingent  fund  of  the  Senate  upon  vouchers  approved  by  the  Chairman 
of  the  Committee. 

[S.  Res.  190,  83d  Cong.,  2d  sess.] 

Resolved,  That  section  3  of  S.  Res.  89,  Eighty-third  Congress,  agreed  to  June  1, 
1958  (authorizing  tlie  Committee  on  the  Judiciary  to  make  a  study  of  juvenile 
delinquency  in  the  United  States) ,  is  amended  to  read  as  follows : 

"Sec.  3.  The  committee  shall  make  a  preliminary  report  of  its  findings,  to- 
gether with  its  recommendations  for  such  legislation  as  it  deems  advisable, 
to  the  Senate  not  later  than  February  28,  1934,  and  shall  make  a  final  report 
of  such  findings  and  recommeudatiuns  to  the  Senate  at  the  earliest  date  prac- 
ticable but  not  later  than  January  31,  1955." 

Sec.  2.  The  limitation  of  expenditures  under  such  S.  Res.  80  is  increased  by 
^175.000.  and  such  sum  together  with  any  unexpended  balance  of  the  sum 
previously  authorized  to  be  expended  under  such  resolution  shall  be  paid  from 
the  contingent  fund  of  the  Senate  upon  vouchers  approved  by  the  chairman  of 
the  committee. 

[S.  Res.  62,  84th  Cong:.,  1st  sess.] 

Resolved,  That  in  holding  hearings,  reporting  such  hearings,  and  making  inves- 
tigations as  authorized  by  section  134  of  the  Legislative  Reorganization  Act 
■of  1946,  and  in  accordance  with  its  jurisdictions  specified  by  rule  XXV  of  the 
Standing  Rules  of  the  Senate  insofar  as  they  relate  to  the  authority  of  the 
Committee  on  the  Judiciary  to  conduct  a  full  and  complete  study  of  juvenile 
delinquency  in  the  United  States,  and  including  (a)  the  extent  and  character 
of  juvenile  delinquency  in  the  United  States  and  its  causes  and  contributing 
factors,  (b)  the  adequacy  of  existing  provisions  of  law,  including  chapters 
402  and  403  of  title  18  of  the  United  States  Code,  in  dealing  with  youthful 
offenders  of  Federal  laws,  (c)  .sentences  imposed  on,  or  other  correctional  action 
taken  with  respect  to,  youthful  offenders  by  Federal  courts,  and  (d)  the  extent 
to  which  juveniles  are  violating  Federal  laws  relating  to  the  sale  or  use  of 
narcotics,  the  Committee  on  the  Judiciary,  or  any  subcommittee  thereof,  is 
authorized  from  March  1,  1955,  through  July  31,  1955,  (1)  to  make  such  expendi- 
tures as  it  deems  advisable  including  no  more  than  $2,000  for  obligations  out- 
standing and  incurred  pursuant  to  S.  Res.  49,  agreed  to  February  4,  1955;  (2) 
to  employ  on  a  temporary  basis  such  technical,  clerical,  and  other  assistants 
and  consultants  as  it  deems  advisable;  and  (3)  with  the  consent  of  the  heads 
of  the  department  or  agency  concerned,  to  utilize  the  reimbursable  services, 
information,  facilities,  and  personnel  of  any  of  the  departments  or  agencies  of 
the  Government. 

Sec.  2.  The  expenses  of  the  committee  under  this  resolution,  which  shall  not 
exceed  $125,000,  shall  be  paid  from  the  contingent  fund  of  the  Senate  by  vouchers 
.t\ppro\'ed  by  the  chairman  of  the  committee. 

Sec.  3.  This  resolution  shall  be  effective  as  of  March  1,  1955. 


Resolved  by  the  subcommittee  of  the  Committee  on  the  Judicinru  to  Studi/ 
Juvenile  Delinquency  in  the  United  States,  That  pursuant  to  subsection  (3)  of 
rule  XXV,  as  amended,  of  the  Standing  Rules  of  the  Senate  (S.  Res.  ISO.  81st 
Cong.,  2d  sess.,  agreed  to  February  1,  1950)  and  committee  resolutions  of  the 
<:!ommittee  on  the  Judiciary  adopted  January  20,  1955.  that  Senator  Estes 
Kefauver  (Democrat,  Tennessee),  and  such  other  members  as  are  present, 
are  authorized  to  hold  hearings  of  this  subcommittee  in  New  York,  N.  Y.,  on 
May  23,  24,  25,  and  20,  and  such  other  days  as  may  be  required  to  complete  these 
iiearings,  and  to  take  sworn  testimonv  from  witne.sses. 
Agreed  to  this  20th  day  of  May  1955. 

Thomas  C.  Hexnings,  Jr., 
WiLi-iAM  Langer, 
Alexander  Wiley, 
Members  of  Subcommittee  to  Study  Juvenile  Delinquency. 


Chairman  Kefauver.  Anything  else,  Mr.  Bobo? 

Mr.  Bobo.  That  is  all. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Our  first  witness. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Mr.  Peter  N.  Chumbris. 


(Mr.  Chmnbris  was  sworn  by  Chairman  Kefauver.) 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  have  a  lot  of  witnesses.  We  want  to  get 
to  the  important  points. 

All  right,  Mr.  Bobo,  will  you  proceed  ? 

Mr.  Bobo.  Mr.  Chumbris,  you  have  a  statement  there  outlining 
the  investigation  which  you  have  made  as  a  member  of  the  staff, 
showing  the  data  that  has  been  gathered  by  the  subcommittee.  I  will 
ask  you  to  proceed  with  your  statement. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Chumbris  is  our  associate  counsel  of  our 
subcommittee,  a  very  capable  lawyer  from  Washington,  D.  C,  who 
has  been  with  the  subcommittee  for  some  time,  and  is  a  competent 
and  fair  attorney;  and  his  investigation  in  this  field  has  been  very 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Thank  you,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Eealizing  the  great  impact  that  sucli  lewd  and  obscene  pornographic 
matter  would  have  on  youth,  the  subcommittee  assigned  to  several 
members  of  the  staff  the  investigation  to  be  made  of  the  nature  and 
extent  of  the  pornographic  traffic  in  the  United  States  and  to  deter- 
mine if  said  traffic  were  of  interstate  character. 

During  the  course  of  the  investigation,  I  made  it  a  practice  to 
visit  the  police  departments  of  the  respective  cities  and  counties  or 
the  prosecuting  attorneys  that  I  visited  during  the  course  of  the  in- 
vestigations and  hearings,  as  well  as  making  special  visits  to  these 
cities.  We  examined  the  exhibits  that  the  departments  had  in  their 
files  that  were  taken  from  the  violators  of  pornography. 

In  discussing  the  matter  we  obtained  much  information  as  to  who 
the  leading  producers  and  distributors  and  small  stores  were  that  were 
selling  this  pornography,  not  only  to  adults  but  to  many  of  the 
juveniles.  We  obtainecl  their  criminal  records,  their  methods  of 
operation  and  the  territories  which  they  covered. 

Throughout  this  procedure  the  subcommittee  showed  that  the  traffic 
in  pornography  is  interstate  in  nature  and  that  it  is  fanned  out 
across  the  four  corners  of  our  Nation. 

If  you  will  look  at  the  map  on  my  right  here  [exhibiting],  each 
one  of  these  dots  represents  various  activities  as  is  indicated  at  the 

The  related  dots  represent  actual  reports  that  we  have  received 
from  the  chiefs  of  police  that  pornography  is  being  sold  to  juveniles. 
The  blue  dots  indicate  the  cities  that  one  distributor  alone  in  Houston, 
Tex.,  fans  out  his  operations  in  all  of  those  cities. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Chumbris,  it  is  hard  to  see  just  what  the 
cities  listed  in  the  files  of  the  Southwest  distribution  is.  I  cannot  see 
what  colors  they  are.  Generally  where  does  one  man  out  of  Houston 
operate  ? 


Mr.  Chumbris.  The  one  man  out  of  Houston,  for  instance,  are  these 
black  dots  [indicating],  and  you  can  see  them  all  along  in  liere.  They 
go  up  into  Kansas,  Oklahoma,  Arkansas,  into  Louisiana,  Mississippi, 
Alabama,  Georgia,  Florida,  part  in  Tennessee,  Missouri.  They  go 
into  Colorado,  into  two  towns  in  New  Mexico,  and  into  Los  Angeles, 
San  Francisco,  Sacramento,  on  north.  They  even  reach  up  to  Ta- 
coma.  Wash. ;  and  that  is  one  distributor  from  Houston,  Tex. 

Incidentally,  the  subcommittee  worked  with  the  police  department 
of  Houston,  Tex.,  in  apprehending  this  person  who  had  that  great 
traffic  in  distributing  pornographic  materials. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  there  any  reason  why  you  cannot  tell  us 
w^ho  he  is? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That  will  be  brought  out  later,  Senator,  during  the 
course  of  these  hearings. 

Mr.  BoBO.  The  man  you  are  referring  to,  is  that  Ed  Florance,  of 
Houston,  Tex.? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That's  correct.  And  it  was  approximately  about 
a  week  ago  that  this  raid  took  place  and  this  great  haul  was  made 
by  the  police  department  of  Houston. 

Mr.  BoBO.  It  is  true  this  man's  operations  extended  into  Canada, 
South  America,  and  Mexico  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That  is  correct,  Mr.  Bobo.  Some  of  the  cities  and 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Just  a  minute.  "Wlienever  you  want  to  take 
any  pictures,  turn  these  lights  on ;  but  it  is  awfully  hot.  I  don't  know 
how  we  can  arrange  that.     If  you  cannot,  just  say  so. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Some  of  the  cities  and  States  from  which  informa- 
tion was  received  from  the  police  departments  and  other  city  and 
State  officials  were :  Philadelphia,  Pa. ;  New  York  City,  N.  Y. ;  Pitts- 
burgh, Pa.;  Chicago,  111.;  Detroit,  Mich.;  Milwaukee,  Wis.;  Cleve- 
land, Oliid;  Miami,  Fla.;  St.  Louis  and  Kansas  City,  Mo.;  New 
Orleans,  La.;  Los  Angeles,  Calif.;  Connecticut;  and  various  cities 
in  such  States  as  Connecticut,  Ehode  Island,  Massachusetts,  North 
Carolina,  the  State  of  Washington,  and  several  others. 

From  these  personal  interviews  and  in  corresponding  with  these 
officials,  the  subcommittee  was  able  to  determine  that  certain  individ- 
uals were  known  in  many  of  these  cities  and  States,  and  were  known 
to  be  large  distributors  of  pornographic  matter  in  many  parts  of  the 

Several  key  witnesses  will  present  testimony  of  the  extent  and 
nature  of  the  interstate  character  of  the  filthy  pornographic  traffic; 
most  of  them  are  representatives  of  the  police  departments  of  these 
various  cities. 

Now,  at  the  outset  it  would  be  interesting  to  note  that  with  the 
changing  of  the  times  has  also  come  a  change  in  pornographic  matter. 
Back  in  1900  many  States  had  inaugurated  statutes  to  stop  the  traffic 
of  pornography,  but  in  those  days  they  were  little  2-by-4's  known 
as  "Maggie  and  Jiggs"  books,  little  pamphlets,  a  few  pictures.  But 
today  the  business  has  become  highly  specialized.  We  have  film,  we 
have  film  in  color,  we  have  film  with  sound,  we  have  wire  recordings, 
tape  recordings,  records,  playing  records;  we  have  booklets  in  color, 
and  the  usual  type  to  which  I  have  already  referred. 

Many  of  these  statutes  have  been  unaltered  throughout  the  years, 
and  because  of  this  new  influx  of  the  type  of  pornogTaphic  material 


we  have  received  from  the  various  officials  of  the  various  States  the 
complaint  that  the  statutes  need  to  be  changed  to  meet  this  new  prob- 
lem that  now  confronts  them. 

Chairman  KErAu\=rER.  That  is  true  of  the  States'  statutes,  but  it  is 
especially  true  of  our  Federal  statutes. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That  is  correct.     Federal  statutes  1461,  1462,  1463, 
and  1464,  a  copy  of  which  I  have  here  and  which  I  Avould  like  to  intro- 
duce into  evidence- 
Chairman  KEFA^T^'ER.  Let  them  be  printed  in  the  record. 
(The  documents  referred  to  above  were  marked  "Exhibit  No.  3," 
and  are  as  follows :) 

Exhibit  No.  3 

Sec.  1461.  RL^iling  Obscene  or  Crime-Inciting  Matter 

Every  obscene,  lewd,  lascivious,  or  filthy  book,  pamphlet,  picture,  paper,  letter, 
writing,  print,  or  other  publication  of  an  indecent  character ;  and 

Every  article  or  thing  designed,  adapted,  or  intended  for  preventing  conception 
or  producing  abortion,  or  for  any  indecent  or  immoral  use  ;  and 

Every  article,  instrument,  substance,  drug,  medicine,  or  thing  which  is  adver- 
tised or  described  in  a  manner  calculated  to  lead  another  to  use  or  apply  it  for 
preventing  conception  or  "producing  abortion,  or  for  any  indecent  or  immoral 
purpose ;  and 

Every  written  or  printed  card,  letter,  circular,  book,  pamphlet,  advertisement, 
or  notice  of  any  kind  giving  information,  directly  or  indirectly,  where,  or  how,^ 
or  from  whom,  or  by  what  means  any  of  such  mentioned  matters,  articles,  or 
things  may  be  obtained  or  made,  or  where  or  by  whom  any  act  or  operation  of  any 
kind  for  the  procuring  or  producing  of  abortion  will  be  done  or  performed,  or  how 
or  by  what  means  conception  may  be  prevented  or  abortion  produced,  whether 
sealed  or  unsealed  ;  and 

Every  letter,  packet,  or  package,  or  other  mail  matter  containing  any  filthy, 
vile,  or  indecent  thing,  device,  or  substance ;  and 

Every  paper,  writing,  advertisement,  or  representation  that  any  article,  instru- 
ment, substance,  drug,  medicine,  or  thing  may,  or  can,  be  used  or  applied  for 
preventing  conception  or  producing  abortion,  or  for  any  indecent  or  immoral  pur- 
pose; and  '  *| 

Every  description  calculated  to  induce  or  incite  a  person  to  so  use  or  apply  any 
such  article,  instrument,  substance,  drug,  medicine,  or  thing — ■ 

Is  declared  to  be  nonmailable  matter  and  shall  not  be  conveyed  in  the  mails 
or  delivered  from  any  post  office  or  by  any  letter  carrier. 

Whoever  knowingly  deposits  for  mailing  or  delivery,  anything  declared  by 
this  section  to  be  nonmailable,  or  knowingly  takes  the  same  from  the  mails  for 
the  purpose  of  circulating  or  disposing  thereof,  or  of  aiding  in  the  circulation  or 
disposition  thereof,  shall  be  fined  not  more  than  $5,000  or  imprisoned  not  more 
than  five  years,  or  both. 

The  term  "indecent,"  as  used  in  this  section  includes  matter  of  a  character 
tending  to  incite  arson,  murder,  or  assassination.  (June  25,  1948,  ch.  645,  sec.  1, 
62  Stat.  768.  efE.  Sept.  1.  1948.) 

Sec.  1462.  Importation  or  Transportation  of  Obscene  LiTEuATtmE 

Whoever  brings  into  the  United  States,  or  any  place  subject  to  the  jurisdiction 
thereof,  or  knowingly  deposits  with  any  express  company  or  other  common 
carrier,  for  carriage  in  interstate  or  foreign  commei'ce  any  obscene,  lewd,  las- 
civious, or  filthy  book,  pamphlet,  picture,  motion-picture  film,  paper,  letter, 
writing,  print,  or  other  matter  of  indecent  character,  or  any  drug,  medicine, 
article,  or  thing  designed,  adapted,  or  intended  for  preventing  conception,  or 
producing  abortion,  or  for  any  indecent  or  immoral  use ;  or  any  written  or 
printed  card,  letter,  circular,  book,  pamphlet,  advertisement,  or  notice  of  any 
kind  giving  information,  directly  or  indirectly,  where,  how  or  of  whom,  or  by 
what  means  any  of  such  mentioned  articles,  matters,  or  things  may  be  obtained 
or  made ;  or 

Whoever  knowingly  takes  from  such  express  company  or  other  common 
carrier  any  matter  or  thing  the  depositing  of  which  for  carriage  is  herein  made 
unlawful ■ 


Shall  be  liued  not  more  than  $5,000  or  imprisoned  not  more  than  five  years,  or 
both.     (June  25,  1948,  ch.  645,  see.  1,  62  Stat.  768,  eff.  Sept.  1,  1948.) 

Sec.  1463.  Mailing  Indecent  Matter  on  Wrappers  or  Envelopes 

All  matter  otherwise  mailable  by  law,  upon  the  envelope  or  outside  cover  or 
wrapper  of  which,  and  all  postal  cards  upon  which,  any  delineations,  epithets, 
terms,  or  language  of  an  indecent,  lewd,  lascivious,  or  obscene  character  are 
written  or  printed  or  otherwise  impressed  or  apparent,  are  nonmailable  matter, 
and  shall  not  be  conveyed  in  the  mails  nor  delivered  from  any  post  office  nor  liy 
any  letter  carrier,  and  shall  be  withdrawn  from  the  mails  under  such  regula- 
tions as  the  Postmaster  General  shall  prescribe. 

Whoever  knowingly  deposits  for  mailing  or  delivery,  anything  declared  by 
this  section  to  be  nonmailable  matter,  or  knowingly  takes  the  same  from  the 
mails  for  the  purpose  of  circulating  or  disposing  of  or  aiding  in  the  circulation 
or  disposition  of  the  same,  shall  be  fined  not  more  than  $5,000  or  imprisoned  not 
more  than  five  years,  or  both.  (June  25,  1948,  ch.  645,  sec.  1,  62  Stat.  769,  eft. 
Sept.  1,  1948.) 

Sec.  1464.  Broadcasting  Obscene  Langtjage 

Whoever  utters  any  obscene,  indecent,  or  profane  language  by  means  of  radio 
communication  shall  be  fined  not  more  than  $10,000  or  imprisoned  not  more 
than  two  years,  or  both.  (June  25,  1948,  eh.  645,  sec.  1,  62  Stat.  769,  eff.  Sept.  1, 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Of  statutes  prohibiting  obscene,  pornographic,  lewd 
matter  from  being  mailed  or  transported  across  State  lines,  or  being 
brought  into  the  United  States. 

Now,  we  also  go  into  the  State  laws,  and,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  also 
have  here  a  summary  of  the  State  laws  of  the  48  States  that  I  would 
like  to  have  presejited  here  this  morning. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  will  be  printed  in  the  Record  as  an 
exhibit  in  your  testimony. 

(The  document  referred  to  above  was  marked  '"Exhibit  No.  4,"  and 
is  as  follows:) 

Exhibit  No.  4 

The  Library  op  Congress, 
Legislative  Reference  Service, 
Washington  25,  D.  C,  May  19,  1955. 
To  :  Senate  Subcommittee  on  Juvenile  Delinquency. 

Attention :  Mr.  Schonberger. 
From :  American  Law  Division. 

Subject :  Minimum  and  maximum  penalties  imposed  for  violations  of  State  laws 
pertaining  to  obscene  and  pornographic  materials. 


Posting  or  leaving  obscene  picture  or  printed  matter  near  a  church,  school, 
highway,  etc. — Fine  of  $10  to  $500,  or  punishment  at  hard  labor  by  the  county 
up  to  12  months. 

Introducing,  advertising,  or  selling  obscene  material. — Fine  of  $50  to  $1,000. 

Display  of  nude  pictures  in  public  places,  except  galleries. — Fine  of  $50  to  $500. 

Code  (1940)  Lit.  14  §§  372-374. 


Preparation,  advertisement,  distribution,  sale  or  exhibition  of  obscene  mate- 
rials.— Imprisonment  in  county  jail  up  to  6  months,  or  fine  up  to  $300,  or  both. 

Code  Ann.  (1939)  §§  43-110;  43-3002. 


Circulation,  offer  for  sale,  and  sale  of  obscene  materials. — Fine  of  $100  to  $300 
for  first  offense ;  $500  to  $1,000  for  second  offense. 

Selling,  offering  for  sale,  or  possessing  any  materials,  the  shipment  of  which 
has  been  rejected  by  the  United  States  mails,  or  which  the  Federal  Government 
will  not  permit  to  be  shipi)ed  or  handled.  Fine  of  $50  to  $100 ;  each  day  of  vio- 
lation being  a  separate  offense. 

Stat.  Ann.  (1947)  §§  41-2704,  41-2706  to  41-2708. 



Imprisonment  in  county  jail  up  to  six  monttis  or  fine  up  to  $500,  or  both,  for 
tlie  first  offense ;  or  imprisonment  in  state  prison  for  not  less  than  one  year  for 
subsequent  offenses. — Penal  Code  (Deering,  1949)  §§  19,  311. 


Fine  of  $100  to  $2,000  with  costs,  and  imprisonment  in  the  county  jail  up  to 
one  year. 

Rev.  Stat.  (1953)  §  40-9-17. 


Imprisonment  up  to  two  years,  or  fine  up  to  $1,000,  or  both. 
Gen.  Stat.  (1949)  §  8567. 


Fine  of  $250  to  $2,500,  or  imprisonment  for  30  days  to  three  years,  or  both ; 
and  fine  of  $500  to  $5,000,  or  imprisonment  for  six  months  to  five  years,  or  both, 
for  subsequent  offenses. 

Code  Ann.  (West,  1953)  ch.  11  §§  711-712. 


Imprisonment  in  state  prison  up  to  five  years,  in  the  county  jail  not  exceeding 
one  year,  or  fine  up  to  $100. 
Stat.  Ann.  (1944)   §847.01. 


Imprisonment  for  one  to  five  years ;  or,  on  jury's  recommendation,  a  fine  not 
to  exceed  $1,000  or  imprisonment  up  to  six  months  at  work  on  the  public  roads, 
or  on  other  public  works,  not  to  exceed  12  months,  or  or  more  of  these  penalties. 

Code  Ann.  (1953)  §§  20-6301 ;  27-2506. 


Imprisonment  in  county  jail  up  to  six  months;  or  fine  not  exceeding  $300, 
or  both. 

Code  Ann.  (1948)   §§  1&-113,  18-4101. 


Imprisonment  in  county  jail  up  to  six  months,  or  fine  of  $100  to  $1,000. 
Ann.  Stat.  (Smith-Hurd,  1935)  ch.  38  §  468. 


Fine  of  $10  to  $200,  to  which  may  be  added  imprisonment  up  to  90  days. 
Stat.  Ann.  (Burns,  Supp.  1953)  §10-2805. 


Imprisonment  up  to  one  year,  or  fine  up  to  $1,000. 
Code  Ann.  (West,  1950)  §  725.4. 


Fine  of  $5  to  $300,  or  imprisonment  up  to  30  days,  or  both,  for  dealing  in  obscene 
literature;  fine  of  $50  to  $1,000,  or  imprisonment  from  30  to  six  months, 
or  both,  for  publishing  such  literature. 

Gen.  Stat.  Ann.  (Corrick,  1949)  §§21-1101  to  21-1102. 


Fine  of  $50  to  $1,000,  or  imprisonment  from  10  days  to  one  year,  or  both. 
Rev.  Stat.   (1953)   §436.100. 


Fine  up  to  $500,  or  imprisonment  up  to  two  years,  or  both. 
Rev.  Stat.  Ann.  (West,  1951)  Tit.  14  §  106. 


Fine  of  $100  to  $1,000,  and  imprisonment  up  to  five  years  for  publishing  and 
circulating  obscene  materials.  Fine  of  $25  to  $100,  or  imprisonment  up  to  six 
months,  or  both,  for  circulating  such  materials  among  minors. 

Rev.  Stat.  (1954)  ch.  134  §  §  24,  27. 


Fine  up  to  $200.  or  imprisonment  up  to  one  year,  or  both. 
Code  Ann.   (Flack,  1951)  art.  27  §515. 



Imprisonment  up  to  two  years,  or  fine  of  $100  to  $1,000,  or  botb,  for  first 
offense ;  imprisonment  of  six  months  to  two  and  one-half  years,  or  fine  of  $200 
to  $2,000,  or  both,  for  subsequent  offenses.  These  penalties  apply  to  sales  or 
distribution  of  obscene  literature  to  persons  under  18. 

Imprisonment  up  to  two  years,  or  fine  of  $100  to  $1,000,  or  both,  for  sale  or 
distribution  of  obscene  pamphlets,  records  and  pictures,  and  books. 

Ann.  Laws  (Supp.  1954)  ch.  272  §  §  27-28B. 


Imprisonment  in  county  jail  up  to  90  days,  or  fine  up  to  $100,  or  both,  for  first 
offense ;  imprisonment  up  to  one  year,  or  fine  up  to  $500  for  second  oft'ense ;  im- 
prisonment up  to  four  years,  or  fine  up  to  $2,000,  or  both,  for  third  and  subsequent 

Stat.  Ann.  (1938)  §§28.575-28.577,28.577  (1),  28.771-28.772. 

Imprisonment  of  90  days  to  one  year  in  county  jail,  or  fine  of  $100  to  $500, 
or  both. 

Stat.  Ann.  (West,  1947)  §  617.24. 


Fine  up  to  $500.  or  imprisonment  in  county  jail  up  to  six  months,  or  both. 
Code  Ann.   (1942)  §2288. 


Fine  of  $50  to  $1,000,  or  imprisonment  in  county  jail  up  to  1  year,  or  both. 
Ann.  Stat.  (Vernon,  1953)  §563.280. 

Imprisonment  in  county  jail  up  to  6  months,  or  fine  up  to  $500,  or  both. 
Rev.  Code  (1947)  §§94-116,  94-3601  to  94-3603. 


Fine  of  $50  to  $1,000,  or  imprisonment  in  county  jail  up  to  1  year,  or  both. 
Rev.  Stat.  (1943)  §28-921. 


Fine  of  $500  to  $1,000,  or  imprisonment  in  county  jail  from  6  months  to  1  year, 
or  both. 

Comp.  Laws  (Hillyer,  1929)  §§  9968,  10144. 

New  Hampshire 

Fine  up  to  $500,  or  imprisonment  up  to  6  months,  or  both. 

Rev.  Laws  (1942)  ch.  441  §§  14-17 ;  am.  Laws  1947  ch.  73 ;  1953  ch.  233. 

New  Jersey 

Fine  up  to  $1,000,  or  imprisonment  up  to  3  years,  or  both. 
Stat.  Ann.  (West,  1953)  §§2A:  85-7,  2A :  115-2. 

New  York 

Imprisonment  from  10  days  to  1  year,  or  fine  of  $150  to  $1,000,  or  both,  for 
each  offense. 

Penal  Law  (McKinney,  Supp.  1954)  §1141. 

North  Carolina 

Common  law  penalty  for  misdemeanors ;  presumably  by  imprisonment  in 
county  jail  up  to  1  year,  or  fine  in  the  discretion  of  the  court,  or  both. 

Gen.  Stat.  Ann.  (Michie,  1944)  §§  14-1  to  14-3,  14-189. 

North  Dakota 

Fine  of  $5  to  $100 ;  or  imprisonment  in  county  jail  up  to  30  days,  or  both. 
Rev.  Code  (1943)  §  12-2109. 


Fine  of  $200  to  $2,000,  or  imprisonment  up  to  7  years,  or  both. 
Rev.  Code  (Page,  1954)   §2905.34. 

Fine  of  $10  to  $1,000,  or  imprisonment  from  30  days  to  10  years,  or  both. 
Stat.  Ann.  (West,  Supp.  1954)  Tit.  21  §  1021. 



Imprisonment  in  county  jail  up  to  6  months,  or  fine  up  to  $500,  or  both. 
Rev.  Stat.   (1953)   §  167.150. 


Fine  up  to  $500,  or  imprisonment  up  to  1  year,  or  both. 
Stat.  Ann.  (Purdon,  1945)  Tit.  18  §  4524. 

Rhode  Island 

Fine  of  $100  to  $1,000,  or  imprisonment  up  to  2  years. 
Gen.  Laws  (1938)  ch.  610  §  13. 

South  Carolina 

Fine  up  to  $1,000,  or  imprisonment  up  to  2  years,  or  both. 
Code  Ann.  (1952)  §16-414. 

South  Dakota 

Fine  up  to  $500,  or  imprisonment  in  county  jail  up  to  1  year,  or  both. 
Code  (1939)  §§  13.0607, 13.1722. 


Fine  up  to  $1,000,  or  imprisonment  in  county  jail  up  to  1  year,  or  both. 
Code  Ann.  (Williams,  1934)  §§  10756, 11190. 


Fine,  up  to  $100. 

Penal  Code  Ann.  (Vernon,  1952)  art.  526. 


Fine  up  to  $300,  or  imprisonment  in  county  jail  up  to  6  months,  or  both.  Cor- 
porations may  be  fined  up  to  $1,000. 

Code  Ann.  (1953)  §§76-1-16,73-39-1. 

Fine  up  to  $200,  or  imprisonment  up  to  1  year. 
Stat.  (1947)  §8490. 


Fine  up  to  $500,  or  imprisonment  up  to  1  year,  or  both. 
Code  Ann.  (Michie,  1950)  §19-265;  (Supp.  1952)  §18-113. 


Publishing  detailed  accounts  of  adultery,  sexual  crime,  or  of  evidence  of  im-. 
moral  acts  offered  in  court:  Fine  up  to  $1,000,  or  imprisonment  in  county  jail 
up  to  1  year,  or  both. 

Sale,  possession,  distribution,  or  exhibition  of  obscene  material :  Fine  up  to 
$250,  or  imprisonment  in  county  jail  up  to  90  days. 

R.  C.  W.  (1951)  §§  9.68,010,  9.68.020,  9.92.020,  9.92.030. 

West  Virginia 

Fine  up  to  $1,000,  and  imprisonment  up  to  1  year. 
Code  Ann.  (1949)  §6066. 


Imprisonment  in  county  jail  from  3  months  to  1  year,  or  imprisonment  in  State 
prison  from  1  year  to  5  years,  or  fine  of  $100  to  $5,000. 
Stat.  (1951)  §351.38. 


Fine  up  to  $100,  to  which  may  be  added  imprisonment  in  county  jail  up  to 
6  months. 

Comp.  Stat.  (1945)  §9-513. 


Chairman  Kefauver.  Incidentally,  in  that  connection,  a  New  York 
law  has  been  amended,  an  admirable  effort  to  do  something  about  this 
problem,  in  the  last  legislature. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That  is  correct.  Senator.  And  I  will  point  out  that 
there  are  several  other  States  that  have  seen  the  light  in  view  of  the 




1  O  -  S5(Fi.ce  p.  521 


mounting  complaints  by  police  officials,  by  the  courts  themselves,  and 
by  the  legislators  themselves.  We  have  had  several  statutes  that 
have  been  amended  to  make  it  more  stringent,  and  also  to  take  in 
pornographic  matter  that  was  not  previously  covered  by  the  laws. 

For  example,  here  are  some  of  the  quotations  that  we  have  received 
from  chiefs  of  police  and  other  officials. 

City  of  St.  Paul,  Minn. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Chumbris,  will  you  make  it  clear  the 
number  of  inquiries  sent  out  to  the  chiefs  of  police  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Yes,  sir.  As  you  stated  in  the  opening  statement, 
Senator,  we  sent  out  questionnaires  to  all  cities  in  the  United  States 
with  a  population  of  100,000  or  more.  Besides  that,  we  sent  them  to 
the  State  capitols  of  the  States  in  which  the  population  does  not  quite 
reach  100,000,  and  also  to  the  larger  cities  in  some  States  which  do  not 
quite  reach  100,000  population.     (See  map.) 

We  also  sent  them  to  the  towns  where  there  are  colleges  or  other 
large  concentrations  of  youth,  to  see  if  there  is  any  specific  traffic 
going  into  prep  school  areas  and  colleges,  and  Army  camps,  and  so 

From  the  returns  that  we  have  received,  which  are  still  incomplete 
returns,  I  have  these  following  quotations  which  will  point  out  the 
problem  that  the  States  have  in  dealing  with  this  pornographic  ma- 

In  St.  Paul,  Minn. : 

I  believe  that  penalties  for  the  niauufacture  of  such  materials  should  be  so 
strong  as  to  discourage  any  repeating  Ity  violators.  The  State  legislature  is 
now  in  the  process  of  passing  new  laws  tightening  restrictions  on  this  matter. 

The  State  legislature  of  Wisconsin  at  the  present  time  has  under 
consideration  more  stringent  bills  for  violation  of  the  obscenity  laws  of 
the  State. 

In  Minnesota,  the  police  department  of  the  city  of  Minneapolis 
states : 

In  some  cases,  we  do  not  feel  that  our  laws,  either  State  or  local,  are  adequate 
to  cope  with  the  so-called  art  magazines  and  photos.  Without  any  question, 
certain  of  these  magazines  would  be  detrimental  to  the  minds  of  juveniles. 

The  police  department  of  city  of  Worcester,  Mass. :  "Penalties  are 
not  sufficient,"  is  their  answer  to  the  question  propounded : 

In  your  opinion,  are  ii^nalties  render«rJ  for  these  offenses  sufttcient  to  act  as 
a  deterrent  to  committing  the  offense? 

At  this  time,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  also  like  to  present  a  copy  of 
the  questions  that  we  sent  out  to  these  various  police  officials  through- 
out the  country. 

Chairman  Kefaua^r.  Let  it  be  printed  in  the  record. 

(The  document  referred  to  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  5,"  and  is  as 

Exhibit  No.  5 

April  12,  19.55. 

Chief  of  Police 


Dear  Mr. 

This  subcommittee,  in  investigating  the  overall  problem  of  juvenile  delinquency, 
has  become  concerned  with  certain  special  problems.  One  of  these  is  the  manu- 
facture, distribution,  sale,  and  possession  of  pornographic  materials.     A  pre- 


liminary  survey  of  the  problem  revealed  valuable  information  and  secured  leads 
to  persons  connected  vpith  the  traffic  in  this  insidious  filth. 

Another  special  problem  which  lias  an  impact  on  youth  is  the  so-called  white- 
slave racket,  of  which  the  subcommittee  is  seeking  further  information. 

In  order  to  determine  the  nature,  extent,  and  national  scope  of  these  opera- 
tions, answers  to  the  following  questions  will  prove  most  beneficial  to  the  sub- 
committee. Staff  investigators  will  be  available  to  follow  up  leads  furnished 
by  you. 

1.  Please  list  the  names  (with  aliases)  and  addresses  of  all  persons  arrested 
and/or  convicted  in  the  past  2  years  in  your  .inrisdiction  of  the  production  or 
distribution  of  pornographic  literature  of  any  kind. 

2.  Will  you  make  any  photos,  criminal  records,  or  other  information  of  the 
above  available  to  the  subcommittee? 

3.  Please  furnish  names  and  addresses  of  accomplices  of  the  above,  even  though 
not  arrested  or  charged  with  violation  of  the  obscene-literature  statutes  or 

4.  Please  give  the  names  and  addresses  of  owners  of  buildings  where  porno- 
graphic literature  was  produced,  stored,  or  sold. 

5.  Please  furnish  names  and  addresses  of  persons,  other  than  above,  known 
to  be  engaged  in  manufacture  or  sale  of  pornography. 

6.  In  your  opinion,  is  traffic  in  pornogi-aphic  material  in  your  jurisdiction 
extensive,  medium,  or  light?     Is  it  directed  to  adult  or  children? 

7.  In  your  opinion,  are  penalties  rendered  for  these  offenses  sufficient  to  act 
as  a  deterrent  to  committing  the  offenses? 

8.  In  your  opinion,  are  State  and  local  laws  adequate  to  cope  with  the  problem? 

9.  Do  you  have  samples  of  pornographic  materials?  If  so,  will  you  make  them 
availal)le  for  subcommittee  staff  inspection? 

10.  Do  you  have  evidence  or  reason  to  believe  that  persons  dealing  in  porno- 
graphic materials  are  connected  with  a  ring  or  other  criminal  activity  such  as 
narcotics  or  white  slavery? 

11.  Please  furnish  copies  of  any  lists  of  customei's  you  may  have  confiscated 
from  persons  dealing  in  such  materials. 

12.  Please  furnish  names  and  addresses  of  all  persons  arrested  in  the  past 
2  years  in  your  jurisdiction  on  charges  of  white  slavery. 

Any  suggestions  you  might  care  to  make  on  measures  designed  to  curb  the 

traffic  in  pornography  and/or  white  slavery  will  be  greatly  appreciated  and  will 

be  given  serious  consideration.     The  above  questions  are  posed  with  the  idea 

that  they  will  be  a  guide  in  submitting  the  information  the  subcommittee  desires. 

With  kindest  i>ersonal  regards,  I  am, 


EsTES  Kefauver,  Chairman. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  The  chief  of  police  from  Gary,  Ind. : 

In  our  poinion,  the  sentences  should  be  greater,  especially  where  juveniles  are 
the  purchasers. 

Chief  of  police  of  Durham,  N.  C. : 

In  my  opinion,  the  penalties  rendered  in  these  cases  should  be  more  severe — 

and,  further — 

I  believe  that  the  State  and  local  laws  should  be  made  stronger  with  respect  to 
obsence  literature. 

Chief  of  police,  city  of  Norfolk,  Va. : 

In  my  opinion,  State  and  local  laws  are  adequate  to  cope  with  the  problem, 
however,  I  feel  that  the  punishment  should  be  more  severe. 

Chief  of  police  of  Dallas,  Tex.,  states: 

In  my  opinion.  State  and  local  laws  are  not  adequate  to  cope  with  the  problem. 
Under  Texas  laws,  violations  of  this  type  are  claimed  as  misdemeanors. 

And  we  find  tliat  to  be  the  case  in  many  States,  that  they  are  misde- 
meanors and  not  felonies. 

The  city  of  Los  Angeles  has  an  interesting  statement : 

Under  our  present  laws.  It  is  sometimes  difficult  to  obtain  convictions  that 
discourage  future  participation  by  the  defendant,  because  the  sentence  imposed  is 


quite  often  negligible.  It  is  generally  felt  that  if  such  a  conviction  would  require 
registration  as  a  sex  ofliender,  the  frequency  of  repeaters  would  drop  noticeably. 
Uniformity  of  the  laws  pertaining  to  pornography  would  be  of  great  value  insofar 
as  the  liaison  between  police  agencies  is  concerned.  Many  acts  constituting 
a  violation  of  the  Los  Angeles  municipal  code  sections  are  not  illegal  acts  in 
other  States  and  cities. 

As  to  our  questionnaires,  we  also  received  some  very  pertinent  in- 
formation as  to  ho\Y  (lie  traffic  reaches  individual  juveniles. 
Rochester,  N.  V. : 

Violator  was  charged  with  possessing  indecent  pictures.  Officer  found  sub- 
ject showing  indecent  pictures  and  books  to  a  group  of  13-year-old  girls  in  front 
of  No.  14  School  on  University  Avenue.     Subject  pleaded  guilty. 

This  was  in  1954.  in  March. 
Columbus,  Ohio : 

Subject  now  in  Ohio  State  Penitentiary — used  juvenile  girls  for  models  to  lewd 

I  might  point  out  tliat  the  State  of  Ohio  has  one  of  the  stiffest  penal- 
ties for  pornographv.  It  is  up  to  7  vears  in  the  penitentiarv,  and 
$2,000  fine. 

I  would  also  like  to  point  out  that  the  subcommittee,  in  official  busi- 
ness in  North  Dakota,  conferred  with  the  judiciary  committee  of  the 
house,  in  which  the  opinion  of  the  subcommittee  was  asked,  and  they 
accepted  the  recommendations  of  the  subcommittee,  and  they  now 
have  one  of  the  most  stringent  laws,  most  up-to-date  laws,  dealing 
with  pornography. 

They  even  provide  for  the  confiscation  of  the  equipment,  so  that 
the  man  cannot  go  back  in  business.  I  understand  that  that  is  one  of 
the  fe^y  States  in  the  United  States  that  does  have  that  law  in  effect. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  By  "equipment"  you  mean  not  just  films, 
you  would  mean  the  projector  and  the  others? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  The  projector,  the  automobile  that  transports  the 
pornography  into  other  States,  any  type  of  equipment  they  may 
have.     Because  we  have  found  instances  where  the  city  police  say: 

We  throw  up  our  hands ;  we  grab  a  man  with  $.50,000  worth  of  pornography, 
and  his  equipment,  his  car,  and  they  burn  up  the  pictures  and  so  forth;  they 
give  him  back  his  car,  they  give  him  back  his  equipment,  and  right  away  he 
is  setting  up  business  again  in  another  town  after  he  gets  out  of  the  jurisdic- 
tion of  that  particular  court. 

Seattle,  Wash.,  going  back  to  places  where  juveniles  are  purchas- 
ing or  are  being  confronted  with  pornographic  matter : 

That  where  there  is  pornographic  material,  it  is  somewhat  difficult  to  deter- 
mine what  is  directed  specifically  to  adults  or  to  children.  As  long  as  it  is 
in  a  community,  it  appears  to  us  that  it  is  available  to  either. 

Trenton,  N.  J. : 

Subject  sold  indecent  and  obscene  literature  and  pictures  to  juveniles.  Con- 
victed of  violation  of  the  crimes  act.  sentenced  to  18  months. 

Senator  Langer.  Mr.  Chumbris,  would  you  say  that  the  North 
Dakota  law  would  be  a  model  for  other  States  to  follow  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  I  think  so.  Senator.  I  think  it  would  be  an  excel- 
lent law,  especially  the  provision  of  confiscation  of  the  equipment. 
Our  subcommittee  last  year  introduced  such  a  bill  in  the  Congress 
of  the  United  States  covering  the  District  of  Columbia,  where  we 
■do  now  have  jurisdiction,  and  that  bill  did  not  pass;  but  it  will  be 
considered  again  by  this  Congress. 


Chairman  Kefauver.  As  a  result  of  our  hearings  in  North 
Dakota,  and  Senator  Langer,  that  the  legislature  out  there  did  change 
the  law  in  North  Dakota ;  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That  is  correct.  We  appeared  before  the  judiciary 
committee,  and  they  follovvcd  our  suggestions.  They  asked  us  for 
our  suggestions,  and  they  followed  them  to  the  letter. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  right. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Los  Cruces,  N.  Mex.  In  answer  to  a  question  of 
how  much  of  the  pornographic  matter  reaches  minors,  the  chief  of 
police  answered : 

Approximately   75  percent  of  the  pornograpbic  material   reaches  minors. 

Des  Moines,  Iowa : 

As  mentioned  previously,  some  of  these  pornographic  books  were  found  in 
one  of  our  schools  by  a  teacher  who  chanced  to  notice  a  group  of  boys  looking 
at  them,  they  notified  police  and  more  of  the  booklets  were  found  in  subject's 
store,  hidden  in  the  back  counter.  The  boy  who  obtained  the  books  had  worked 
at  the  store  after  school  hours.  Subject  was  arrested  a  second  time  for  pos- 
session of  pornographic  booklets. 

In  this  instance  some  of  the  materials  were  found  on  children  in 
elementary  schools,  not  junior  high  or  high  school,  but  elementary 

On  a  complaint  from  a  father  who  claimed  a  photograph  dropped  from  his 
daughter's  school  book,  the  subject  was  arrested  and  found  to  have  600  porno- 
graphic pictures  and  7  reels  of  film  depicting  lewdness  at  its  worst.  The  sub- 
ject stated  that  the  salesman  was  driving  a  car  with  New  York  plates. 

Yakima,  Wash. 

Chairman  Kefaum^r.  Just  a  minute.  You  spoke  of  a  pornographic 
material  being  found  among  kids  in  elementary  school.  Does  it  indi- 
cate what  age  group  that  is  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  In  this  report  it  did  not.  This  was  taken  from  the 
questionnaire  that  the  chief  of  police  sent  us.  But  children  of  ele- 
mentary school 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  would  be  12  or  under,  13  or  under? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That's  right.  From  6  to  12,  13  would  be  the  high- 
est age  of  the  children  in  elementary  school,  I  would  assume. 

Yakima,  Wash. : 

In  December,  1954,  it  came  to  the  attention  of  the  police  department  that  a 
number  of  juveniles  in  one  of  the  junior  high  schools  had  in  their  possession  some 
lewd  pictures.  Subject  was  arrested  and  charged  with  possession  of  obscene 
photographs  and  fined  $50  and  given  a  30-day  jail  sentence.  Subject,  an  amateur 
photographer,  stated  he  borrowed  the  pictures  and  made  a  set  of  negatives.  He 
admitted  printing  over  400  of  these  pictures. 

South  Hadley,  Mass. : 

Pornographic  material  of  lewd  playing  cards  and  pictures  were  strewn  about 
a  pond  that  is  frequented  by  children  in  the  neighborhood.  The  ages  of  the 
children  were  of  school  age — S  to  10  years  of  age — and  pupils  of  Woodlawn 
School  here  in  town.  In  all.  I  would  say  about  25  to  30  pictures  were  turned 
over  to  the  police  department. 

Minneapolis,  Minn. : 

This  letter  was  from  a  criminologist :  "I  gather  that  the  use  of  pornographic 
movies  is  extensive  among  university  and  high  school  students  in  Minneapolis. 
Matteson,  in  the  State  bureau  of  apprehension,  says  that  he  doubts  whether 
any  college  student  goes  through  4  years  without  being  exposed  at  least  once 
to  a  pornographic  movie.  Recent  graduates  of  the  University  of  Minnesota  con- 
firmed this.  If  so,  there  is  extensive  distribution  of  which  the  jwlice  are  un- 
aware or  in  which  they  are  impotent." 


Paducah,  Ky. : 

In  answer  to  our  question  of  estimate  of  pornographic  material  getting  to 
minors,  the  answer  is,  "about  75  percent."' 

Manchester,  N.  H. : 

Subject,  aged  18,  was  arrested  for  giving  obscene  booljs  away  and  for  showing 
obscene  boolis.  He  pleaded  nolo  contendere  to  both  counts  and  was  placed  on 
probation  for  6  months. 

Raleigh,  N.  C. : 

Subject  was  convicted  of  selling  sexy  comic  books  to  high  school  students  and 
was  given  12  months  sentence.  It  seems  to  me  that  this  could  be  more  effectively 
attacked  on  a  nationwide  basis,  because  that  is  the  only  basis  whereby  the 
sources  can  be  controlled. 

This  is  still  the  quotation  from  the  chief  of  police : 

If  this  department  may  be  of  further  service  to  you  or  your  committee,  1 
assure  you  that  we  shall  endeavor  to  do  so  to  the  best  of  our  ability. 

Harrisonburg,  Va. : 

Recently  we  received  a  complaint  of  a  svibject  selling  these  materials,  and 
subject  had  been  selling  this  material  to  high  school  students. 

Wilmington,  N,  C. : 

During  the  entire  investigation  of  obscene  literature  we  received  information 
that  this  literature  had  filtrated  throughout  the  schools  of  the  county  and  that 
it  could  be  purchased  by  anyone  who  applied  for  it  from  the  Finer  or  the  Carolina 
Camera  Shops. 

West  Allis,  Wis. : 

Subject  had  22  obscene  films  in  his  possession.  He  was  showing  them  in  his 
basement,  and  12  juveniles  came  to  our  attention  who  had  viewed  these  films. 

Boy  12  years  old  picked  up  with  a  telescope  that  had  a  picture  of  a  nude 
woman  in  it.  This  boy  took  this  from  the  bureau  of  his  older  bi'other,  who  had 
purchased  it  from  an  unknown  man  in  a  tavern. 

Boy  17  with  two  obscene  pictures,  origin  unknown.  Boy  was  picked  up  as 
a  prowler,  was  referred  to  juvenile  authorities. 

St.  Louis,  Mo. : 

The  pornographic  material  has  been  known  to  find  its  way  into  schools,  as 
was  true  in  the  case  of  three  individuals  who  were  charged  with  sale  and  dis- 
tribution of  pornographic  literature. 

Eddyville,  Ky. : 

Pornographic  literature  is  being  sold  to  minors  at  numerous  gasoline  filling 
stations  in  this  area. 

Burlington,  N.  J. : 

Pornographic  literature  is  being  sold  at  quite  a  number  of  the  newsstands. 
Nine  minors  have  committed  Illegal  sexual  acts  as  a  result  of  reading  this 

New  York,  N.  Y. : 

Pornographic  literature  is  being  >'old  at  several  bookstores  in  New  York 

Philadelphia,  Pa. : 

Pornographic  literature  has  stirred  up  male  youth,  who  consequently  go  out 
and  commit  "gang  rape."  This  mass  rape  is  an  integral  part  of  the  juvenile  gang 
warfare  system.  Its  frequency  is  underestimated,  and  that  is  because  many  of 
the  victims  are  afraid  to  report  these  crimes  to  the  authorities. 

Boulder,  Colo. : 

What  percentage  of  this  traflBc  would  you  estimate  reaches  minors? 


The  answer : 

If  any  traffic,  would  suppose  that  most  of  it  is  among  schoolchildren. 

City  of  Long  Beach,  Calif. : 

Ti-afRc  in  pornographic  material  is  light  in  this  jurisdiction,  and  it  is  mainly- 
directed  to  adults — 

meaning  that  still  some  of  it  goes  to  juveniles. 

Buffalo,  N.  Y. : 

Our  last  i-eferral  to  the  youth  bureau  of  the  Buffalo  Police  Department  was  in 
connection  with  the  distribution  of  pornographic  literature  and  obscene  comics 
among  schoolchildren  in  the  local  area. 

Boston,  Mass. : 

Subject  was  found  guilty  of  rai>e  of  a  16-year-old  girl,  and  investigation  of 
premises  revealed  50  photos  of  pornographic  nature.  There  are  other  instances 
of  individuals  being  charged  with  sex  offenses  and  exhibiting  obscene  material  to 
9-  and  10-year-old  girls. 

Cleveland,  Ohio : 

Nude  sequence  photographs  found  in  subject's  house,  with  girls  in  photos 
obviously  juveniles. 

Baton  Rouge,  La. : 

Examination  of  case  records  (three  such  cases)  tend  to  show,  as  does  past 
experience  in  our  department,  that  the  nature  of  tliis  pornographic  literature  is 
reaching  students  and  children  of  junior  high  and  high  school  age  brackets. 

Denver,  Colo. : 

Subject  charged  with  attempting  to  molest  two  teen-age  girls,  was  found  to 
have  six  small  pulp  magazines  of  pornographic  nature  in  the  glove  compartment 
of  his  car. 

This  bears  out,  Mr.  Chairman,  the  opening  statement  where  J.  Edgar 
Hoover  states  that  the  growing  sex  crimes  committed  by  17-  and  18- 
year-old  boys — they  read  the  stuff,  and  they  go  out  and  molest  these 
young  girls. 

Several  cities,  such  as  the  city  of  Roanoke,  Va.,  state  tliat  they  are 
unable  to  say  what  percentage  of  the  pornographic  traflic  Avould  reach 
minors,  indicating  there  tliat  it  is  there,  but  they  cannot  break  it  down 
as  to  how  much  goes  to  adults  and  how  much  goes  to  minors. 

Phoenix,  Ariz. : 

In  answer  to  our  question  of  whether  traffic  is  directed  to  adults  or  children, 
the  answer  was  directed  to  juveniles. 

The  police  further  state : 

It  is  our  suggestion  that  parents  of  juveniles  be  impressed  with  the  necessity 
of  training  their  children  to  report  any  display  of  or  attempt  to  sell  them 
pornographic  literature. 

I  think  that  is  a  sentence  that  can  be  well  borne  in  mind  by  the 
parents  of  America. 

Now  we  come  to  advertisements  by  mail.  We  are  going  to  have 
witnesses  from  the  Post  Office  I)e])artment  who,  will  give  us  their 
problems  and  the  full  picture;  but  I  would  like  to  point  out  that  in 
this  mailing  of  pornographic  material,  first  they  have  these  name  lists 
where  the  companies,  A,  B,  C,  for  instance,  at  a  certain  address,  will 
send  out  these  circulars.  Tlie  circulars  are  very,  very  suggestive. 
The  question  is.  How  to  stop  that  advertising  from  getting  to  these 
minors,  because  we  are  receiving  many  complaints. 


Name  lists  is  a  bio;  business.  Some  of  them  are  very,  very  legiti- 
mate; they  are  very  legitimate  name  lists  of  juveniles  used  by  baby- 
clothing  stores  and  baby-food  operators,  and  so  forth;  but  somehow 
or  other  these  certain  individuals  will  obtain  these  name  lists  from 
legitimate  sources,  by  hook  or  crook,  and  then  take  and  turn  around 
and  sell  these  name  lists  and  make  a  terrific  amount  of  money. 

In  one  of  the  cases  that  we  will  present  during  the  course  of  these 
hearings  I  personally  examined  the  material  that  was  contiscated  by 
the  police  department,  and  they  had  a  hie  case  that  is  almost  as  big  as 
some  of  our  governmental  agencies,  full  of  name  lists  that  this  man 
had  at  his  command,  over  100,000  names  of  different  persons,  and  he 
concentrated  as  much  as  possible,  as  much  as  he  could,  on  juveniles. 
I  mean,  that  seemed  to  be  the  big  business  to  them. 

In  order  to  see  how  that  operation  went  into  effect,  the  subcom- 
mittee used  a  procedure  used  by  the  Post  Office  Department.  A  defi- 
nite name  and  address  was  taken,  a  letter  was  written  to  those  people 
who  advertised  in  these  magazines  of  these  type  of  photos  and  films 
that  are  supposed  to  be  of  a  shady  nature.  It  was  written  in  the  hand- 
writing of  a  juvenile,  on  high-school  stationery,  sent  to  these  adver- 
tisers. None  of  the  advertisers  attempted  to  find  out  whether  the 
letter  which  was  written  on  high-school  stationery  in  juvenile  hand- 
writing was  a  person  underage  or  overage.  He  immediately  sent  the 
order  that  was  requested. 

That  type  of  advertising  is  a  headache  to  the  Post  Office  Depart- 
ment, and  I  am  sure  they  will  bring  it  out  in  full  during  the  course 
of  these  hearings. 

That  name-list  business  is  big  business,  and  it  has  stumped  the 
law-enforcement  agencies  as  to  how  best  treat  it. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Tell  us  in  a  little  more  detail  how  the  name 
list  works.  These  pornographic  outfits  get  the  name  lists  and  they 
send  something  not  only  suggestive  literature,  but  they  don't  exactly 
describe  what  it  is  ? 

Mr.  CiiUMBRis.  That's  right.  They  give  you  an  idea  that  it  is  of 
the  lewdest  type,  and  the  person  answer,  and  the  first  time  they 
will  send  you  back  something  that  will  be,  let's  say,  a  nude  picture 
which  they  think  that  they  can  get  by  without  prosecution  from 
the  law. 

Then  what  they  hope  to  do  is  establish  a  relationship,  and  the  next 
order  will  be  for  more  of  the  pornographic,  until  finally,  we  believe 
and  we  do  hope  that  we  will  be  able  to  establish  that  before  we  com- 
plete our  investigation  on  pornography,  that  the  first  orders  are 
come-ons,  and  finally  they  go  into  the  lewd  filthy,  pornographic  mate- 
rial.    And  this  goes  to  juveniles. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  A  big  part  of  it  is  with  juveniles? 
Mr.  Chumbris.  A  great  amount  of  it  is  with  juveniles. 
As  a  matter  of  fact,  one  of  the  pictures  that  we  received  was  of  a 
boy  in  the  nude,  part  of  it  was  blacked  out,  but  that  boy  couldn't 
have  been  more  than  15  years  old,  from  his  appearance. 
Chairman  Kefauver.  All  right,  sir,  v»nll  you  proceed. 
Mr.  Cnu^rBRis.  The  other  ma]i  that  you  see  there  [indicating]  on 
the  board,  the  smaller  map  is  the  one  dealing  with  returns  that  we 
have  received  from  police  officers  showing  traffic  to  juveniles  alone; 
I  mean  traffic  to  juveniles.     So  you  can  see  how  well  it  is  spread 

65263—55 5 


out  throughout  the  country,  and  that  is  only  a  20-pei'cent  return  on 
the  questionnaries  that  we  have  received. 

I  have  just  one  more  topic  to  discuss,  Mr.  Chairman,  and  that  is  a 
specific  case  that  I  am  going  to  present  here  this  morning,  one  in 
which  the  police  officers  of  that  city  are  not  here  to  testify,  and  since 
I  personally  made  the  investigation  and  know,  examined  the  court 
records  and  talked  with  the  police  officers,  I  know  of  it  personally  of 
my  own  knowledge,  and  I  would  like  to  explain  that  case  to  you  now. 
Mr.  BoBO.  Mr.  Chumbris,  on  this  mail-order  business  which  you 
have  been  discussing,  I  think  also  involved  in  that  business  are  a 
number  of  dildoes,  d-i-1-d-o-e-s,  as  they  are  referred  to  in  the  trade, 
of  a  sexual  nature,  that  have  been  going  out  in  the  mails  to  youngsters 
as  young  as  12  and  13,  of  which  I  believe  we  have  evidence  in  our 
files.  .     . 

I  think  also  you  have  within  your  information,  it  could  be  within 
your  possession  this  morning,  a  number  of  letters  advertising  these 
books,  the  messages  from  the  parents,  showing  the  widespread  opera- 
tion of  it,  concerning  Gallatin,  Tenn.,  which  deals  in  this  material; 
concerns  New  York  and  Los  Angeles,  and  various  other  cities  aroimd 
tlie  country. 

Do  you  have  any  more  information  on  the  mailing  lists?  I  know 
that  you  referred  to  baby  foods  and  diai^er  sliops.  I  don't  think  that 
the  mailing  list  would  be  obtained  from  baby  foods  and  diaper  shops 
for  the  mailing  of  this  material. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That's  one  of  the  leads.  The  baby  foods  and  diaper 
shops  have  legitimate  name  lists.  Somehow  or  other  these  people  who 
oi)erate  in  mailing  lists  will  get  some  of  these  names  from  that  list. 

For  example,  in  these  sample  letters  that  we  sent  out  they  were  sent 
to  certain,  let's  say,  three  different  companies.  Then  a  month  or  so 
later  4  or  5  companies  with  whom  no  correspondence  was  had  sud- 
denly got  hold  of  the  names,  which  indicates  that  there  is  a  method 
of  transferring  names,  exchanging  names,  or  in  some  instances  it 
might  be — well,  I  couldn't  exactly  explain  what  their  method  of 
procedure  is,  and  that  is  one  of  the  problems  that  we  would  like  to 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  your  investigation  with  this  subcommittee,  is  it  not 
true  that  we  have  uncovered  instance  after  instance  where  children 
would  answer  a  magazine  ad,  in  either  a  comic  book  or  a  legitimate 
trade  magazine,  and  at  a  later  date  he  would  receive  through  the  mail 
advertisements  for  material  of  a  pornographic  nature? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That's  correct. 

Mr.  BoBO.  That  might  be  mailable,  and  then  at  a  later  time  the 
more  lewd  stuff  would  be  presented  to  him  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That's  right.  And  how  they  would  get  those  names 
we  have  not  definitely  establisiied  that;  but  it  is  being  clone. 

ISIr.  Bobo.  Presumably  a  mailing  list  from  answers  to  adver- 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Yes. 

Mr.  Bobo.  All  right.    Suppose  you  continue. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  In  this  case,  the  Saxton  case,  which  was  in  Pitts- 
burgh, Pa.,  one  Louis  Stevens  Saxton,  of  4204  Verona  Boulevard, 
Pittsburgh,  Pa.,  was  arrested  on  October  25  of  1951  and  charged  with 
the  manufacture  and  statewide  distribution  and  sale  of  obscene 


Mr.  BoBo.  Mr.  Chumbris,  is  this  the  case  that  you  are  speaking  of 
now,  the  man  who  was  operating  from  the  jail  cell  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That's  correct.    Then  after  he  was  convicted  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let's  get  his  name  again  now. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  His  name  is  Louis  Stevens  Saxton. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  his  criminal  record ;  you  have  the 
official  records? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Yes.  We  have  his  record;  we  have  his  mug; 
everything  was  furnished  to  us  by  the  police  department. 

He  was  convicted  and  was  serving  time.  While  he  was  in  jail  he 
contacted  an  accomplice  known  as  Clarence  Meade  Barnes,  who  was 
on  the  outside.  Clarence  Meade  Barnes  continued  the  operations  on 
the  outside  while  Saxton  masterminded  from  the  jail.  He  was  also 
indicted  with  Barnes  on  that  particular  offense  and  was  also  sentenced. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Was  that  a  big  operation  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Yes ;  it  was  quite  a  big  operation.  The  interesting 
part  of  the  operation  was  that  besides  manufacturing  the  pornographic 
material  they  actually  acted  as  distributors;  they  were  known  dis- 
tributors ni  the  East  who  would  make  big  drops  of  this  particular 
material  in  the  Pittsburgh  area,  and  Saxton  would  be  tlie  person  who 
would  handle  it. 

For  instance,  in  a  letter  from  Saxton  to  Barnes,  which  was  written 
in  code  and  then  later  Barnes  explained  to 

Mr.  BoBo.  Mr.  Chumbris,  do  you  have  a  copy  of  that  letter  in  your 
files  ? 

Air.  Chumbris.  That's  up  in  the  files  of  the  subcommittee. 

Barnes,  in  finally  revealing  tlie  full  statement  to  Lieutenant  Carna- 
han  of  the  police  department  of  Pittsburgh,  stated  that  the  letter  was 
in  code.  For  instance,  they  would  use  the  word  "jeAvelry."  Every 
time  they  used  the  word  "jewelry"  it  referred  to  pornography.  If  it 
said  '^$50  worth  of  jewelry,"  it  meant  that  it  was  $50  worth  of  pornoo-- 
raphy.  If  it  mentioned  "John  owes  $50  for  jewelry,"  it  meant  that 
John  owed  $50  for  pornography,  "Will  you  go  bv  and  pick  up  the 
cJiecks, '  and  so  forth. 

In  it  the  actual  operations  were  explained  by  Barnes  to  the  police 
officer,  how  Saxton  had  him  go  ahead  and  print  these  "Maggie  and 
Jiggs"  books,  and  Barnes  went  ahead  and  did  it.  He  admitted  that 
he  went  ahead  and  produced  it. 

Mr.  BoBo.  When  you  speak  of  "Maggie  and  Jiggs"  books,  Mr. 
Chumbris,  I  think  you  should  explain  what  a  "Maggie  and  Jio-o-s" 
book  is.  *"= 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Yes.  I  mentioned  earlier,  when  I  was  explainincr 
the  different  types  of  pornography,  the  "Maggie  and  Jiggs"  books  are 
two- by- fours,  they  are  books  2  inches  by  4  inches ;  they  are  also  known 
as  8  pages,  because  it  contained  8  thin  pages.  They  are  caricatures 
they  are  cartoons.  They  usually  take  people  from  the  comic  strips' 
or  famous  movie  stars,  and  they  portray  them  in  very  lewd,  perverted 

T.-^?^^l^'"^'^^^  Kefau\t^r.  You  are  not  getting  us  mixed  up  with  Bud 
±1  islier  5 

Mr.  Chumbris.  No.  That  is  very  legitimate  operation.  Not  only 
Maggie  and  Jiggs,  but  almost  every  known  legal  comic  strip  in  the 
business,  their  characters  are  being  stolen  and  placed  into  these  filthv. 
lewd  books.  '' ' 


Chairman  Kefau^t.r.  Plagiarized,  is  that  what  you  call  it  ? 
Mr.  Chumbris.  That's  right. 

Chairman  KEFAm'ER.  I  think  it  would  be  well  to  get  this  letter  and 
put  it  in  the  record,  and  let  the  press  see  it. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  have  any  further  questions  on  the  Saxton 

case  ? 

Chairman  KE^Au^^=:R.  How  long  is  this  letter  that  you  have  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Well,  the  first  letter  is  about  a  page  long,  and  the 
questions  and  answers  are  approximately  three  pages  long. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  are  the  questions  and  answers? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That  was  the  interview. 

For  instance,  he  says,  "What  is  your  full  name?"  This  is  the 
interrogation  of  the  witness.  And  then  he  explained  the  full  opera- 

For  instance — I  may  read  part  of  it 

Mr.  BoBO.  Would  you  read  the  letter  into  the  record? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Yes.    [Reading:] 

Dear  Bud  :  Sorry  you  were  not  able  to  get  over  to  the  hospital  before  I  left. 
Alice  said  that  you  and  Margaret  were  over,  and  that  you  called  last  week. 
Do  hope  you  and' the  family  are  all  well.  No  doubt,  I  will  have  to  return  to  the 
hospital  and  have  my  leg  amputated ;  it  is  much  worse,  and  nothing  can  be  done 
here ;  it  is  a  tough  decision  to  have  to  make. 

And  I  do  believe  that  that  means  that  he  would  like  to  get  back  into 
the  business,  when  he  is  referring  to  a  statement  of  that  type. 

Did  want  to  ask  you  a  few  questions.  You  do  not  have  to  write  and  answer 
them,  but  I  remember  a  few  things  that  may  help  out  in  a  business  way.  Did 
you  ever  get  the  color  formula  from  Mr.  Wilner?  Believe  he  has  to  have  it  in  a 
week  or  so,  for  you.  How  is  your  friend  in  Kinsman?  You  said  you  talked 
with  him,  and  he  wanted  to  get  4  of  your  $8  size  watches. 

Mr.  Martin  (consultant  to  subcommittee) .  Mr.  Chumbris,  will  you 
show  the  relationship  between  the  reference  to  the  $8  watch  and  the 
corresponding  information  from  his  accomplice  which  established 
what  he  means  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Yes.  He  says  here,  for  instance,  the  next  state- 
ment that  he  has — 

How  is  your  friend  in  Kinsman?  You  said  you  talked  with  him  and  he 
wanted  to  get  4  of  your  $8  size  watches.  No  doubt  they  will  cost  him  $30  each, 
but  they  are  worth  it. 

Now,  who  is  Kinsman,  and  what  does  he  mean  by  "these  watches" 
and  the  price?  Kinsman  is  a  man  from  Ohio,  and  as  far  as  the 
watches,  it  means  8-millimeter  film,  movies,  and  the  price  is  $30  each. 
That's  the  way  they  go  all  the  way  through  the  letter. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Put  the  letter  and  the  questions  and  answers 
into  the  record ;  let  them  be  printed  in  the  appendix  and  made  part  of 
the  record.    The  letter  is  received. 

(The  information  referred  to  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  6,"  and  is  as 

February  3,  1953. 
To :  Mr.  C.  M.  Barnes,  514  Cato  Street,  Pittsburgh,  Pa. 

Dear  Bud:  Sorry  you  were  not  able  to  get  over  to  the  hospital  before  I  left. 
Alice  said  that  you  and  IMargaret  were  over,  and  that  you  called  last  week.  Do 
hope  you  and  the  family  are  all  well.  No  doubt.  I  will  have  to  return  to  the 
hospital  and  have  my  leg  amputated ;  it  is  much  worse,  and  nothing  can  be  done 
here ;  it  is  a  tough  decision  to  have  to  make.  Did  want  to  ask  you  a  few  ques- 
tions.    You  do  not  have  to  write  and  answer  them,  but  I  remembered  a  few 


things  that  may  help  out  in  a  business  way.  Did  you  ever  get  the  color  formula 
from  Air.  Wilner?  Believe  he  was  to  have  it  in  a  week  or  so  for  you.  How  is 
your  friend  in  Kinsman?  Yon  said  you  talked  with  him,  and  he  wanted  to  get 
4  of  your  $S-size  watches.  No  doubt  they  will  cost  him  $30  each,  but  they  are 
worth  it.  Did  Ben  ever  drop  around?  Oh,  I  owe  Nick  $17.50  in  case  he  wants 
any  jewelry.  Have  you  seen  Whitey  lately?  You  should  see  him  some  evening 
when  you  go  bowling.  Papy,  no  doubt,  has  not  seen  the  advertising  match  dis- 
play, or  has  he?  Wish  yovi  would  call  Jonney,  the  bakery  salesman,  up,  or 
Margaret  could  call.  The  best  time  is  on  a  Saturday  morning  between  10:30 
and  11.  The  name  you  have.  He  can  use  those  five  $16  watches  at  $30  plus  the 
2  special  ones  you  have  in  the  same  size.  He  said  he  would  need  them.  The 
specials  I  told  him  you  wanted  $70  for  the  2.  Did  your  other  friend  collect  that 
$50  for  the  check  that  was  returned?  Should  Margaret  call  Jonney  this  Satur- 
day, have  her  tell  him  to  give  Alice  the  $50  he  owes  me  for  perfume,  as  I  need  it 
for  insurance  payments ;  and  he  should  pay  Margaret  for  the  watches  he  takes. 
Did  your  friend  finish  all  the  advertising  matches,  less  what  he  spoiled?  You 
should  keep  count  of  what  you  receive.  You  could  pay  him  what  is  due  when 
Jonney  pays  for  the  jewelry.  Give  Alice  any  balance  due.  By  the  way,  I  know- 
that  George,  your  pal  in  Murrysville,  was  asking  about  you.  I  told  him  I  would 
tell  you.  Would  you  write  a  letter  to  Mrs.  Sofle  Levy,  2092  Tinker  i;>rive.  Ocean- 
side,  N.  Y.,  and  explain  to  her  that  I  did  not  know  about  the  insurance  check 
until  you  advised  me?  Tell  her  that  as  soon  as  possible  tlie  amount  will  be  sent 
you  for  the  balance  due  on  the  fur  coat.  Also  tell  her  it  would  not  be  advisable 
to  come  to  Pittsburgh  during  the  bad  weather,  but  you  will  let  her  know.  Hope 
you  get  to  see  your  pal  from  Kinsman.  Of  course  you  could  call  him  up.  Keep 
Alice  advised,  but  be  sure  and  have  Jonney  leave  the  $50  with  her  ;  and  his  'phone 
number  I  believe  you  have.  Should  going  out  past  Whitey's,  tell  Alice 
to  give  you  two  bottles  of  perfume  to  give  to  his  wife.  Say  hello  for  me.  HoiDe 
you  understand  everything.  The  fireworks  display  business  should  begin  to  book 
their  orders  soon.  Sure  could  use  a  good  year.  Best  wishes  and  regards  to  all 
of  you,  and  get  your  match  advertising  finished  and  pay  it  ofl".  Did  you  pay  the 
bili  at  Shield's  Rubber  Co..  How's  the  car  doing?  You  could  look  at  the  ther- 
mostat in  Alice's  car.  It  does  not  work.  Also,  the  trunk  door  lock.  Write  me 
when  you  can. 

Yours  always. 


P.  S. — Those  2  special  watches  I  told  him  were  $70. 

This  is  the  statement  of  Clarence  Meade  Barnes,  white,  aged  42,  of  514  Cato 
Street,  Pittsburgh,  Pa.  It  is  taken  in  the  office  of  Assistant  Superintendent  of 
Police  Adam  A.  Geisler  under  the  direct  examination  of  Acting  Lt.  Allen  Carna- 
han,  the  interrogator  and  James  Patton,  city  detectives.  Narcotic  Squad.  Also 
present  in  the  room  while  the  statement  is  being  typed  is  Margaret  Barnes,  wife 
of  Clarence  Barnes.  J.  H.  Gamble  is  the  typist.  Statement  is  begun  at  4:05 
p.  m.,  February  23, 1953. 

Q.  What  is  your  full  name? — A.  Clarence  Meade  Barnes. 

Q.  How  old  are  you? — A.  42. 

Q.  AYhere  do  you  live? — A.  514  Cato  Street.  Pittsburgh,  Pa. 

Q.  Are  you  married  or  single"? — A.  Married. 

Q.  Are  you  employed? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Where? — A.  Westinghouse  Electric  Corp.,  East  Pittsburgh,  Pa. 

Q.  Now,  Clarence,  do  you  understand  that  you  are  under  arrest  by  this  de- 
partment charged  with  the  manufacture,  possession,  and  sale  of  obscene  liter- 
ature, pornographic  pictures,  obscene  movies  and  books'? — A.  I  know  I'm  here 
because  I  had  that  "junk." 

Q.  AVe  are  going  to  ask  you  to  give  us  a  statement  concerning  this  charge 
against  you.  Before  you  give  us  this  statement  in  your  own  words  in  answer  to 
our  questions,  we  wish  to  advise  you  of  your  rights.  You  will  not  be  forced  to 
say  anything  here,  but  what  you  do  say  may  be  used  against  you  or  for  you  at  the 
time  of  your  trial  in  a  court  of  law.     Do  you  understand  this? — A.  All  right. 

Q.  We  also  wish  to  advise  you  that  you  have  the  right  to  secure  legal  counsel, 
an  attorney,  if  you  so  desire.     Do  you  iniderstand  this'.'' — A.  Yeah. 

Q.  And  now  that  you  understand  what  we  are  doing  here  and  your  rights  have 
been  explained  to  you,  are  you  still  willing  to  go  along  with  us  and  to  answer  the 
questions  in  your  own  language  that  we  may  ask  you? — A.  That's  right,  I'm 

Q.  Clarence,  this  obscene  material  that  we  confiscated  from  your  home  on 
Saturday,  February  21,  1953  ;  do  you  own  that? — A.  No. 

Q.  Who  owns  it? — A.  Lew  Saxton. 


Q.  I  am  goinj;  to  show  you  Pittsburgh  police  photograph  No.  12979  and  ask  you 
if  you  can  identify  that  pictui-e? — A.  Yeah,  that's  Lew  Saxton. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  known  Saxton? — A.  About  3  years,  I  think.  I  trans- 
acted business  with  him  before  he  went  to  the  vet's  hospital  at  Aspinwall. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  had  this  obscene  merchandise  in  your  home? — A.  Since 
about  a  week  before  Christmas  of  19.">2. 

Q.  Explain  in  your  own  words  how  he  contacted  you. — A.  By  telephone  from 
the  vet's  hospital  to  my  home. 

Q.  Then  did  you  go  to  the  veteran's  hospital  to  see  him? — A.  Twice. 

Q.  Explain  your  conversation  there,  and  what  he  asked  you  to  do  in  regards  to 
this  material. — A.  He  asked  me  to  take  it  into  my  home  and  keep  it  there  until 
he  was  released  by  the  police.  Also,  to  manufacture  novelty  named  "Maggie  and 
Jiggs"  with  no  price  given  on  manufacture.  He  said  he  would  take  care  of  me. 
That  was  the  first  visit,  and  on  the  second  visit,  he  wanted  me  to  manufacture 
of  French  Ticklers,  still  no  price  given. 

Q.  Did  you  asiree  to  do  this? — A.  Yeah. 

Q.  When  were  these  two  visits  that  you  made  to  the  hospital? — A.  Thanks- 
giving Day,  and  one,  2  weeks  later. 

Q.  Did  he  give  you  any  of  the  material  at  that  time? — A.  No. 

Q.  When  was  this  material  delivered  to  your  home? — A.  Johnny,  the  baker, 
brought  it  on  a  Saturday,  the  first  part  of  December. 

Q.  Ho  brought  all  of  the  stuff,  Johnny,  the  baker  brought  all  of  the  merchan- 
dise?-— A.  No ;  he  didn't  bring  all  of  the  stiiff,  he  brought  the  stuff  for  the  French 
Ticklers,  the  rubbei'S ;  for  the  rubbers. 

Q.  Who  is  this  Johnny,  the  baker,  and  do  you  know  what  his  telephone  num- 
ber is? — A.  No  ;  I  don't  know  his  last  name,  all  I  know  him  by  is  Johnny. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  Johnny  got  this  rubber  for  the  French  Ticklers  that  he 
brought  to  you? — A.  From  Lew  Saxton  at  the  vti^'s  hospital. 

Q.  Was  this  cut  up  in  small  pieces? — A.  All  ready  cut;  ready  to  assemble. 

Q.  Who  else  brought  oliscene  material  to  your  home? — A.  His  first  name  is 
Jack ;  that's  all  I  know  him  by. 

Q.  Anyone  else  that  you  can  name  that  brought  this  type  of  material  into  your 
home? — A.  Just  that  Mr.  Levy. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  he  lives? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Where? — A.  Oceanside,  N.  Y. 

Q.  What  did  he  bring  to  your  home? — A.  Cartoons,  movies,  cards,  French 
Ticklers,  obscene  pictures. 

Q.  Did  you  pay  for  any  of  this  material? — A.  No. 

Q.  Did  Saxton  tell  you  what  you  were  to  do  with  it? — A.  Hold  it,  and  he  would 
call  me  when  somebody  was  to  pick  up. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  collect  any  money  for  any  of  this  material? — A.  $12,  I  think 
it  was. 

Q.  From  who?- — A.  I  don't  remember. 

Q.  Did  anybody  pick  any  of  this  stuff  up  at  your  home? — A.  Yes,  Johnny,  the 
baker  salesman. 

Q.  Did  you  receive  a  letter  from  Lew  Saxton  from  the  Allegheny  County 
Workhouse  dated  February  3, 1953? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  I  am  going  to  ask  you  some  questions  about  this  letter;  first  one  thing  (is 
this  a  copy  of  that  letter  you  received)  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Clarence,  in  one  statement  in  this  letter  it  says,  "Did  you  ever  get  the 
color  formula  from  Mr.  Wilner,  believe  he  was  to  have  it  in  a  week  or  so  for  you"  ; 
what  did  Saxton  mean  by  "color  formula"? — A.  When  ticklers  are  finished,  they 
are  dipped  into  a  color  so  that  the  end  of  the  tickler  is  whatever  color  you  want  it. 
That  was  what  he  meant. 

Q.  The  next  statement  that  he  has  he  says,  "How  is  your  friend  Kinsman,  you 
said  you  talked  with  him,  and  he  wanted  to  get  4  of  your  $8  size  watches,  no 
doubt  they  will  cost  him  .$30  each,  but  they  are  worth  it."  Now,  who  is  Kinsman, 
and  what  does  he  mean  by  these  watches  and  the  price? — A.  Kinsman  is  a  man 
from  Ohio;  as  for  watches,  it  means  8-mm  movies  (millimeter).  The  price  is 
$30  each. 

Q.  Are  these  obscene  movies? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  Kinsman  get  these  movies? — A.  No. 

Q.  The  next  sentence  in  the  letter,  Saxton  asks,  "Did  Ben  ever  drop  around?"; 
who  is  Ben,  and  did  he  ever  drop  around ;  did  you  ever  sell  him  anything? — 
A.  He's  the  individual  who  delivered  rubbers  to  be  manufactured  into  ticklers 
to  my  home.     He  never  dropped  around !  I  never  sold  him  anything. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Ben's  last  name? — A.  No. 


Q.  The  next  statement,  "Oh,  I  owe  Nick  $17.50,  in  case  he  wants  any  jewelry"  ; 
who  is  NiclvV — A.  I  don't  Ivnow  the  last  name  ;  he  lives  in  the  Turtle  Creek  Valley ; 
I  have  his  telephone  number  at  home. 

Q.  What  does  Saxton  mean  that  he  "owes  Nick  $17.50  in  case  he  wants  any 
jewelry"? — A.  Referring:  to  jewelry  means  merchandise  of  obscene  material. 

Q.  Did  you  give  Nick  any  obscene  pictures? — A.  Yeah, 

Q.  Approximately  when? — A.  February  3,  1953. 

Q.  IIow  much  merchandise  did  he  receive  from  you? — A.  About  $17.50  plus 
about  $6.50  more  which  he  said  he  would  pay  later. 

Q.  Did  you  do  any  business  Avith  a  man  named  Whitey  that  Saxton  mentions 
in  his  letter? — A.  I  went  to  see  him  at  the  gasoline  station  on  Route  22;  it's 
called  Gravity  Fill :  about  6  miles  past  Wilkinsburg,  past  the  Turnway  Inn. 

Q.  Did  you  sell  Whitey  any  merchandise? — A.  Cards  and  matches 

Q.  I'.y  liiatches,  you  mean  obscene  matches? — A.  Obscene  matches,  the  same 
with  the  cards. 

Q.  The  next  statement  in  Saxton's  letter  says,  "Papy,  no  doubt,  has  not  seen 
the  advertising  match  display,  or  has  he?";  who  is  I'apy,  and  where  does  he 
live? — A.  I  think  he  owns  a  bar  in  East  Pittsburgh. 

Q.  What  does  Saxton  mean  by  the  "advertising  match  display"?— A.  He  means 
matches  with  obscene  pictures  on  them. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  these  matches? — A.  Were  delivered  to  my  home  by  a 
fellow  named  Jack. 

Q.  Did  you  collect  any  money  from  Whitey  for  matches? — A.  Yes;  about  $20; 
was  used  to  pay  Jack  for  matches. 

Q.  Did  you  order  these  matches  made  up,  or  did  Saxton  ? — A.  Saxton. 

Q.  The  next  statement  in  Saxton's  letter  states :  "wish  you  would  call  Johnny 
the  bakery  salesman  up,  the  best  time  is  in  the  morning  between  10  :  30  and  11 :  00 ; 
the  name  you  have  he  can  use  those  five  $16  watches  at  $30  plus  the  2  special  ones 
you  have  in  the  same  size"  ;  will  you  explain  that  statement  in  your  own  words? — 
A.  Did  not  contact  Johnny.  In  regards  to  five  $16  watches  means,  16-mm.  movies  ; 
that's  obscene  movies  ;  2  specials  is  the  same  thing. 

Q.  Next  Saxton  says :  "Did  your  other  friend  collect  that  $50  for  the  check  that 
was  returned,"  what  does  he  mean  by  this  in  this  statement? — The  $50  was  for 
merchandise  received  ;  the  check  liounced,  but  he  finally  made  it  good. 

Q.  Who  was  the  check  from ;  who  signed  the  check? — A.  I  don't  know  his  name. 

Q.  The  next  statement  in  the  letter  says:  "Should  Margaret  call  Johnny  this 
Saturday,  have  her  tell  him  to  give  Alice  the  $50  he  owes  me  for  perfume  as  I 
need  it  for  insurance  payments,  and  he  should  pay  Margaret  for  the  watches  he 
takes";  what  does  he  mean  by  this  statement? — A.  In  the  first  place,  Margaret 
didn't  make  any  contact  with  him.  $50  means  price  of  merchandise  received  from 
Mr.  Saxton. 

Q.  Next  he  says :  "Did  your  friend  finish  all  the  advertising  matches  less  what 
he  spoiled,  you  should  keep  count  of  what  you  receive,  you  could  pay  him  what 
is  due  when  Johnny  pays  for  the  jewelry,  give  Alice  any  balance  due"  ;  Clarence 
explain  that  statement? — A.  The  advertising  matches  are  not  finished;  in  the 
second  place,  Johnny  did  not  buy. 

Q.  Who  is  Alice,  and  where  does  she  live? — A.  Alice  is  Lew  Saxton's  girl  friend ; 
lives  on  Homewood  Avenue. 

Q.  Does  she  handle  any  obscene  material? — A.  No. 

Q.  The  next  statement :  "I  know  that  your  pal  George  in  Murrysville  was  asking 
about  you.  I  told  him  I  would  tell  you" ;  who  is  George,  and  what  is  his  connec- 
tion with  this  ring? — A.  George  was  a  possible  buyer  but  did  not  buy  any 

Q.  Did  you  try  to  sell  him  some  merchandise? — ^A.  Yeah,  Lew  sent  me  out  there. 

Q.  Now  the  next  statement :  "Would  write  a  letter  to  Mrs.  Sofie  Levy,  2992 
Tincker  Drive,  Oceanside,  N.  Y.,  and  explain  to  her  what  I  did  not  know  about 
the  insurance  check  until  you  advised  me ;  tell  her  that  as  soon  as  possible,  the 
amount  will  be  sent  you  for  the  balance  due  on  the  fur  coat"  ;  Clarence,  will  you 
explain  what  Saxton  means  by  this  statement? — A.  I  wrote  a  letter  explaining  that 
Lew  did  not  know  the  insurance  check  was  no  good  ;  that  he  would  pay  the  amount 
as  soon  as  possible  plus  the  balance. 

Q.  What  does  he  mean  by  the  fur  coat? — A.  Obscene  merchandise. 

Q.  He  further  states  in  the  letter  to  "tell  Mrs.  T^evy  it  would  not  be  advisable 
to  come  to  Pittsburgh  during  the  bad  weather,  but  you  will  let  her  know" ;  what 
does  Saxton  mean  by  that? — A.  He  (Lew  Saxton)  could  not  contact  Levy  here 
in  Pittsburgh. 


Q.  He  next  says :  "should  you  be  goins  out  past  Whitey's,  tell  Alice  to  g:ive 
you  two  bottle  of  perfume  to  give  to  his  wife" ;  what  does  he  mean  by  this, 
statement? — A.  I  suppose  he  actually  means  perfume  there;  I  didn't  stop  at 
Alice's  at  all. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  taken  any  money  to  Lew  Saxton? — A.  No. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  that  you  can  add  to  this  statement? — A.   [None.] 

Q.  Clarence,  after  you  and  your  wife  have  had  an  opportunity  to  read  this 
statement  over,  and  if  you  tind  that  it  is  true  to  the  best  of  your  knowledge, 
are  you  willing  to  sign  it  and  to  swear  that  you  have  told  the  truth? — A.  Yeah. 

Q.  Have  you  been  treated  properly  by  Superintendent  Geisler  and  the  officers 
in  the  detective  division  of  the  Pittsburgh  Police  Department? — A.  -Very  true. 

Q.  And  the  answers  to  the  questions  have  been  typed  just  as  you  have  given 
them  and  are  your  own  words,  is  that  right? — A.  Right,  it  is  correct. 

(Signed)     Clarence  M.  Barnes,  Jr. 

This  statement  has  been  read  by  the  deponent,  Clarence  Meade  Barnes,  after 
which,  it  was  sworn  and  subscribed  to  before  me,  the  undersigned  authority  on 
this  23d  day  of  February,  1953. 

Hector  R.   Mariani, 

Notary  Public. 


James  Patton, 

Mrs.  C.  M.  Barnes,  Jr., 


ADDED   INFORMATION,    6:03   P.    M.,   FEBRUARY   23,    1958,   VOLUNTEERED  BY  BARNES 

On  Thanksgiving  Day,  received  $40.  and  some  odd  cents  from  Lew  Saxton  to 
pay  for  a  punch  press  for  assembling  "Maggie  &  Jiggs."  Press  purchased  from 
Star  Stapling  &  Products  Company,  929  Fifth  Avenue,  Pittsburgh.  There  was 
also  2,000  eyelets  on  the  order  received  for  the  above  amount.  Press  ordered  by 
Lew  Saxton,  picked  up  be  me. 

(This  additional  information  typed  hereon  by  J.  H.  Gamble,  Stenographer.) 

(Signed)     J.  H.  Gamble. 

[seal]  H.  R.  Mariana. 

(Signed)     J.  H.  Gamble, 


Chairman  Kefau^tsr.  Go  ahead,  Mr.  Chumbris. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  In  conclusion,  I  would  like  to  summarize,  since  the 
subcommittee  has  started  its  investigations  and  has  had  a  certain 
amount  of  pornographic  discussion  at  some  of  the  community  hear- 
ings throughout  the  country,  we  have  been  able  to  accomplish  certain, 
what  I  think,  are  successful  results. 

For  instance,  as  I  explained  earlier,  in  working  with  the  Houston 
police,  that  big  raid  of  the  Southwest  distributor  was  made.  As  I 
mentioned  earlier,  the  North  Dakota  statute  was  changed  to  give  it 
one  of  the  most 

Mr.  Bono.  Will  you  let  me  ask  you  there.  Are  you  speaking  of 
the  Police  Department  of  Houston,  Tex.,  or  the  Sheriff's  Department 
of  Houston  County,  Tex.  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  It  was  the  Sheriff's  Department  of  Houston  County, 

And  the  North  Dakota  statute  was  changed  as  I  stated. 

Further,  on  one  of  the  trips  that  I  was  making  on  this  porno- 
graphic investigation,  in  Michigan  a  grand  jury  went  into  the  ques- 
tion of  pornographic  literature.  I  went  over  and  talked  to  the 
district  attorney  and  to  the  district  judge  there,  explained  to  him 
what  we  were  trying  to  do.  They  gave  us  all  of  the  cooperation  that 
we  could  possibly  expect.    They  gave  us  a  full  report  of  their  findings. 


In  many  areas,  civic  and  religious  organizations  united  to  conduct 
cleanup  campaigns,  to  clean  up  this  pornographic  mess  that  has  been 
sweeping  throughout  the  country,  not  only  the  dirty,  lewd  pornog- 
raphy that  we  are  talking  about  today,  but  they  are  also  attacking 
the  borderline  pornogra])hy,  and  some  of  the  ])inup  magazines  that 
are  found  on  the  newsstands,  especially  those  around  the  schools  and 
the  churches. 

Cliairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Chumbris,  two  questions. 

In  your  survey  and  the  returns  you  have  gotten  from  the  police 
chiefs  is  there  any  question  about  that  pornography  among  juve- 
niles— and  that  is  what  we  are  concerned  with  here — that  it  does 
have  a  degrading  effect,  leading  to  the  marring  of  the  lives  of  many 
of  our  young  people,  and  also  increasing  the  amount  of  juvenile  and 
criminal  activity  among  children? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  There  is  no  question  about  it.  I  think  that  prac- 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  that  the  concensus  of  all  the  police  chiefs? 

j\Ir.  CiiiorBRis.  Every  one  of  them.  They  even  went  so  far  as  to 
say  that  this  is  one  filthy  mess  that  has  got  to  be  cleaned  up,  and 
that's  why  they  are  so  anxious  about  more  stringent  laws  and  more 
severe  punishment,  because  most  of  them  will  say,  "I  don't  want  my 
children  to  run  into  any  of  this." 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  it  also  the  result  of  your  inquiries  to  show 
that  as  the  extent  of  the  distribution  of  pornography  among  the 
juveniles  increases  in  a  given  section,  you  have  a  corresponding  in- 
crease in  deliquency  and  sex  crimes? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That's  correct;  absolutely. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Along  the  same  line  as  set  forth  by  Mr. 
Hoover  on  a  national  scale  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That's  correct. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Now,  sir,  can  yon  give  us  any  estimate — be- 
fore that.  Does  your  investigation  show  that  over  the  last  few  years 
the  publication  and  the  distribution  of  ]^ornogra]:>hy  among  children, 
teen-agers,  has  been  substantially  on  the  increase? 

Mr.  Chitmbris.  From  the  information  that  I  have  received  there  is 
a  definite  increase  of  pornography  going  to  children,  and  there  is  a 
definite  increase  of  pornography  that  is  being  distributed  through- 
out the  United  States.  And  they  are  bringing  in  a  new  type  of  pornog- 

Some  people  are  remarking  about  the  number  of  pornographic 
records,  pornographic  phonograph  records  spreading  out  throughout 
the  country. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  this  is  in  all  parts  of  the  United  States, 
even  Tennessee  I  believe  you  said  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That's  correct.  I  believe  we  have  another  chart 
there,  the  Baltimore,  the  Houston,  and  the  one  from  the  South. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Finally,  sir,  can  you  give  any  estimate  of  the 
size  of  this  lousiness? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Well,  the  one  in  Baltimore — this  wnll  portray  the 
size.  If  I  may  mention  it  from  here  [indicating],  this  is  a  point  where 
it  started.    One  shipment 

Chairman  Kefauvfj?.  That  is  Baltimore  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That's  right.  And  all  of  these  big  blocks  indicate 
where  this  shipment  went  by  railway  express.    The  total  value  of  just 


one  sliipment  was  $30,000  declared  value,  with  an  estimated  retail 
value  of  $250,000.  Mind  you,  that's  just  one  shipment  that  that  man 

Mr.  BoBO.  Isn't  that  291  railway  express  shipments,  Mr.  Chumbris? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Yes. 

Mr.  Martin.  I  think,  Mr.  Chumbris,  what  you  want  to  say  is  that 
these  are  shipments  from  just  one  source. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That's  correct.    From  the  Baltimore  source. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  This  fellow  got  convicted  the  other  day,  did 
he  not  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  He  was  convicted  in  Federal  court  in  Baltimore. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  is  his  name  ?  I  think  this  is  an  inter- 
esting case;  we  ought  to  have  some  description  of  it  later  on.  Are 
you,  or  will  somebody  else  describe  what  happened  in  this  Baltimore 
case  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Yes.  Well,  we  will  have  the  assistant  United  States 
attorney  who  will  be  here;  and  we  have  policemen,  the  inspector  from 
Washington,  and  Sergeant  Brown  from  the  Detroit  Police  Depart- 
ment, who  will  give  specific  cities  and  the  operations  from  those  cities. 

This  [exhibiting]  is  a  picture  as  it  was  taken  of  these  packages  as 
they  were  impounded,  with  the  addresses  where  they  are  going.  And 
the  different  value  is  illustrated  that  Avas  declared  for  the  various 

Mr.  Martin.  Mr.  Chumbris,  this  photograph,  as  I  understand  it, 
represents  one  of  the  291  shipments? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That's  correct. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  one  of  the  291  shipments  apparently  has 
87,9G0  pieces  of  pornography. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That's  right. 

Photograph  of  seizures  by  the  United  States  (Jovernment  of  87,900  pieces  of 

Chairman  KEFAU^^ER.  These  pictures  and  charts  will  all  be  made 
exhibits  in  the  record. 

Go  ahead,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Mr.  Chumbris,  have  you  received  any  information  as  to 
the  size  or  the  volume,  dollarwise,  outside  of  this  one  case  here,  as  to 
what  this  traffic  miglit  be  throughout  the  United  States  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Well,  I  have  asked  that  question  and  because  of  the 
fact  that — let  me  answer  it  first  with  one  illustration. 

We  asked  the  customs  officials 

Chairman  Kefauver.  They  will  be  here  to  testify  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Yes,  sir.  We  asked  tliem  a  question,  how  much 
comes  into  the  United  States?  And  they  said  that,  "We  are  only 
able  to  ascertain  or  get  hold  of  5  percent  of  tlie  traffic."  So  95  percent 
gets  by  them. 

The  same  thinir  can  be  applied  to  the  various  police  departments. 
They  can't  possibly  estimate  at  this  particular  time,  I  don't  think  a 
complete  survey  has  been  made  or  might  not  be  able  to  be  made  because 
of  the  fact  that  it  is  just  getting  so  gigantic,  and  every  day  we  are  run- 
ning into  distributors  like  Soloday,  for  instance,  who  has  a  $250,000 
retail  value  from  just  that  one  outlet. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Now,  will  some  witness  other  than  you  de- 
scribe the  fact  that  from  the  United  States  is  shipped  a  lot  of  pornog- 


291    RAILWAY    EXPRESS  SHIPMENTS    IN    1953 
C.O.D.   OR     DECLARED   VALUE- $30,000.22 
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raphy  to  other  countries,  and  from  other  countries  a  lot  is  shipped 
to  us? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Yes.  That  will  be  taken  care  of  by  one  of  our  other 

Chairman  KEFAu^^R.  Very  well.     Is  there  anything  else? 

Senator  Langer,  do  you  have  any  questions  to  ask  Mr.  Chambris  ? 

Senator  Langer.  Mr.  Witness,  what  is  a  bondage  photo  ? 

Mr,  Chumbris.  A  bondage  photo  are  these  photos  where  the  girl 
wears  very  little  clothing,  practically  nude,  and  usually  their  hands 
and  their  legs  are  bound  together  either  by  chain  or  by  rope,  and  they 
are  known  as  bondage  photos. 

Senator  Langer.  I  inquired  because  you  say  "nudes  and  bondage 
photos."  I  never  heard  that  term  used  before.  I  thank  you.  That's 
all,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Thank  you,  Mr.  Chumbris. 

Our  next  witness,  Mr.  Bobo. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Father  Daniel  Egan. 


Chairman  Kefauver.  No  one  can  ever  question  your  veracity,  but 
if  you  mention  any  names  I  think  I  should  place  you  under  oath. 

Father  Egan.  I  won't  mention  any  names. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Very  well. 

Father  Egan,  it  is  a  pleasure  for  the  chairman  to  see  you  again. 
I  know  over  the  course  of  a  long  time  your  interest  in  the  young  boys 
and  young  people,  especially  with  the  problem  with  which  we  are 
dealing  here  today.  We  are  grateful  to  you  for  coming  here  and 
giving  us  the  benefit  of  your  experience  and  findings  on  this  important 
problem  affecting  our  children. 

Mr.  Bobo,  do  you  want  to  ask  Father  Egan  any  preliminary 
questions  ? 

Mr.  BoBO.  Yes.  I  would  like  to  ask  Father  Egan  briefly  some 
questions,  describing  your  work.  Father,  that  you  had  and  the  contact 
you  have  with  the  young  people. 

Father  Egan.  I  am  a  priest,  ordained  just  10  years.  In  the  past 
10  years  I  have  been  specializing  in  high  school  and  teen-age  missions. 

During  the  course  of  a  year  I  might  travel  from  Louisville  to 
Cincinnati,  to  Cleveland,  to  Detroit,  to  Piochester,  to  Boston,  to  Brook- 
lyn, to  the  South,  to  city  after  city.     Today  I  go  to  Boston. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Before  you  tell  your  experiences,  Mr.  Bobo, 
for  the  record,  because  we  can  always  see  the  Father,  but  the  record 
must  be  presented.  Let's  get  how  old  he  is,  who  he  is,  how  long  he 
has  been  a  Father,  what  his  assignment  is. 

Father  Egan.  I  will  be  11  this  year.     I  am  ordained  10l^  years. 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  what  order  are  you  ordained  ? 

Father  Egan.  I  am  a  Franciscan,  from  a  monastery  at  Graymoor, 
Garrison,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  BoBO.  And  how  long  have  you  been  ordained? 

Father  Egan.  101/2  years. 

I  am  on  what  we  call  a  mission  bend,  and  we  go  from  city  to.  city 
giving  missions ;  some  of  our  Fathers  go  to  the  foreign  missions. 

Mr.  Bobo.  And  your  full  name  ? 


Father  Egan.  Father  Daniel  Egan. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Now,  Father  Eaan,  would  you  tell  us  some  of  the  things 
of  which 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  this  a  special  work  that  you  are  designated 
to  do,  Father  Egan  ?  Will  you  give  us  the  background  of  your  assign- 
ment and  what  you  have  undertaken  ? 

Father  Egan.  I  received  requests  from  various  cities  to  conduct 
high  school  retreats  in  Catholic  schools,  and  also  to  go  to  cities  that 
do  not  have  Catholic  high  schools  and  conduct  teen-age  missions  in 
the  evening  for  Catholic  students  who  go  to  public  schools,  and  many 
Protestants  and  Jewish  children,  and  teen-agers  attend  as  well;  they 
are  all  mixed  up. 

So  I,  well  I  get  the  kids  in  the  church  for  an  hour  and  10  minutes 
every  evening,  and  I  talk  to  them  about  their  problems.  During  the 
course  of  the  week's  mission  their  problem  does  come  up.  In  talking 
to  me  on  the  streets,  or  on  the  corners,  the  problem  of  the  pornographic 
literature  is  increasing. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Father  Egan,  would  you  tell  us  where  you  have  been,  in 
what  cities  you  have  been,  and  how  manv  years  you  have  been  doing 

Father  Egan.  I  have  been  in  teen-age  missions  in  Louisville,  Cin- 
cimiati,  Cleveland,  Rochester,  Boston,  Washington,  Brooklyn — well, 
too  numerous  to  mention  in  10  years. 

Since  February  I  have  been  in  Cleveland,  Washington,  Boston, 
Jersey,  up  in  Cornell  University — well,  cities  like  this. 

Mr.  BoBO.  And  in  the  cities  do  you  hold  youth  meetings  ? 

Father  Egan.  Throw-aways  ai-e  given  out  in  the  public  high  schools 
a  week  or  two  beforehand  announcing  a  teen-age  mission. 

AU  yom-  problems  are  frankly  discussed.  God's  point  of  view  with  regard  to 
your  troubles. 

Then  the  kids  come  sometimes ;  in  Springfield  last  year  we  had  1,200 
kids  every  night;  tlie  following  week  1,600  kids  every  night.  And 
these  were  by  and  large  75,  85  percent  of  them  public  high  school  kids. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  did  not  understand  how  many  you  said  you 
would  have  every  night. 

Father  Egan.  It  would  vary  with  the  city.  Senator.  In  Spring- 
held  we  had  1,200  every  night.  In  the  following  week  in  Holyoke 
we  had  1,600  every  night. 

Starting  tonight  up  in  Gardiner,  Mass.,  there  will  be  a  series  of 
teen  talks.     I  don't  know  how  many  to  expect. 

Mr.  BoBO.  After  you  have  had  these  talks  with  them,  and  you  have 
talked  to  them,  do  they  then  come  to  you  for  counseling  ? 

Father  Egan.  Yes.  So  naturally  from  here  on  in,  if  you  ask  me 
any  questions,  since  I  am  a  professional  man,  I  will  say  that  I  have 
encountered  this  literature  in  a  Midwest  city,  in  a  Northern  city,  or  in 
a  Southern  city,  uidess  you  demand  that  I  specify  the  city.  Would 
it  do  any  good  if  I  mentioned  the  mime  of  the  city  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Sure.     Tell  where  you  found  it. 

Mr.  BoBo.  I  think  if  you  would  tell  us  the  city  where  you  found  it, 
it  would  show  the  interstate  traffic  in  this  matei'ial.  Father. 

Father  Egan.  Since  February  I  have  seen  this  pornographic  liter- 
ature in  Cleveland,  Washington,  and  in  New  York  City.  I  have 
seen  it,  looked  at  it.     The  kids  brought  it  to  me. 


Mr.  BoBO.  You  speak  of  pornographic  literature.  Of  what  type 
are  you  speaking  now,  Father  ? 

Father  Egan.  I  do  not  mean  the  magazines  that  are  very  lurid  and 
filthy  and  sexy  that  can  be  bought  on  newsstands.  I  rather  mean  the 
type  of  literature  that  might  be  printed  as  this  [indicating],  and  then 
circulated  through  high  schools,  sold  to  a  kid  on  the  corner,  or  just 
sold  to  them  any  place. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  mentioned  that  you  have  seen  this  in  this  city.  Have 
you  seen  it  in  the  hands  of  teen-agers  or  j^ounger  ? 

Father  Egan.  Yes.  In  one  city  I  was  conducting,  I  usually  con- 
duct a  parent  night  to  arouse  a  public  indignation  against  this  con- 
dition, to  get  the  parents  aware  of  it.  Most  of  them  are  not  aware 
of  it.  So,  in  this  particular  city,  I  asked  2  of  the  boys,  15  years  of 
age,  would  they  go  out  and  buv  me  some  real  filthy  literature.  They 
said,  "What  kind  do  you  want?" 

I  said,  "Real  filthy." 

They  said,  "How  much  money  do  you  want  to  spend  ?" 

I  had  a  $5  bill  with  me.  I  gave  it  to  them.  Inside  of  an  hour 
they  brought  back  some  of  the  material  I  sent  back  to  your  office. 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  the  city  of  Washington,  was  that  where  this  particular 
thing  happened  ? 

Father  Egan.  No;  this  was  in  Cleveland. 

I  mean  now  by  pornographic  literature,  the  specific  kind  that 
shows  in  a  degrading  way,  and  in  unnatural  ways  the  act  of  sex 

Mr.  BoBO.  Father,  in  traveling  around  the  country  you  have  be- 
come acquainted  with  college  campuses.  Have  you  known  on  these 
campuses  of  the  showing  of  pornographic  stag  party  films  ? 

Father  Egan.  At  fraternity  houses,  I  know  that  they  are  shown  to 
just  stag  parties. 

INIr.  BoBO.  Would  you  say  this  was  very  widespread  among  the 
high  schools  and  colleges?    1  am  speaking  now  of  the  films. 

Father  Egan.  I  am  not  in  a  position  to  say;  I  do  not  work  too 
frequently  on  the  college  level. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Among  high-school  children,  has  it  ever  come  to  your 
attention  that  they  have  viewed  these? 

Father  Egan.  I  have  heard  it  on  many  occasions  when  a  teen- 
ager will  go  baby  sitting,  that  while  there  they  will  be  shown  or  they 
will  see  some  of  this  pornographic  film  material  that  you  speak 

Mr.  BoBO.  Could  you  give  us.  Father  Egan,  in  your  opinion,  what 
the  effect  of  this  pornographic  material  is  upon  a  young  mind? 

Father  Egan.  We  speak  a  great  deal  at  the  present  moment  about 
the  blackboard  jungles.  Emotional  problems  in  high  school.  And 
yet  there  are  some  people  that  would  like  to  tell  us  that  there  is 
nothing  wrong  with  stealing.  The  God-given  pleasures  of  sex,  out- 
side of  marriage.  Still,  when  a  kid  does  do  it,  he  does  experience — 
and  this  is  something  God  is  responsible  for — they  do  experience  a 
guilt  complex.  This  guilt  complex,  I  am  certain,  is  reflected  in  the 
emotional  problems  they  reveal  in  the  classroom.  These  pornographic 
materials  are  bound  to  produce  in  the  lives  of  the  teen-agers  acts 
of  masturbation,  acts  of  self-abuse,  acts  of  unnatural  things  between 
fellows  and  girls,  and  this  is  shown  up,  then,  in  the  sense  of  guilt, 
and  that  reveals  itself  in  emotional  problems  in  the  classrooros. 


The  teachers  in  the  public  high  schools,  God  bless  them,  they  are 
doing  a  wonderful  job  with  the  problems  that  they  have,  but  they  are 
treating  a  symptom  over  here,  and  the  real  cause  is  over  here. 

You  were  speaking  a  short  while  ago  about  the  penalties  for  this 

Mr.  BoBO.  May  1  ask  you  this :  When  you  are  speaking  of  a  symp- 
tom over  here  and  a  cause  over  there,  to  what  are  you  referring? 

Father  Egan.  They  are  treating  the  emotional  symptoms  of  filthy 
language  on  the  walls  and  on  the  toilets,  and  they  are  treating  the 
emotional  problems  of  disbehavior,  or  fighting  and  gang  instincts  ni 
the  schools,  but  this  may  be  a  mere  symptom  of  somethnig  deeper 
away  over  here,  that  when  a  boy  or  a  girl  is  possessed  with  a  sense  of 
guilt,  that  they  are  committing  acts  of  impurity  alone  or  with  others, 
Tt  is  revealed  then  in  these  other  things,  and  they  are  creating  this 
thing,  but  the  real  cause  is  over  here. 

This  deluge  of  filth  is  sweeping  over  the  country  and  is  having  its 
effect  in  other  things.     I  am  convinced  of  this. 

No  normal  teen-ager  today  could  look  at  this  unless  he  has  ice 
water  in  his  veins.  If  he  has  real  blood  he  couldn't  possibly  look 
at  this  without  showing  some  effect  in  other  ways. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  think  of  the  normal  teen-ager  only  the  emotional 
disturbed  teen-ager;  do  you  think  it  would  be  possible  by  looking  at 
some  of  the  material  which  has  come  into  your  hands  that  he  might 
thereby  be  stirred  up  to  go  out  and  commit  a  sex  crime  against  a 
fellow  playmate,  boy  or  girl? 

Father  Egan.  I  am  certain  of  it.  A  boy  looks  at  this,  shows  it  to 
his  girl  friend.  They  go  to  a  show  together,  a  movie,  and  things  are 
bound  to  happen.  i    i  -i 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  think  that  among  the  sexually  uneduqated  chil- 
dren who  are  inquisitive,  as  most  of  them  are  about  sex,  that  this 
might  tend  to  make  him  think  this  is  normal  sex,  pictures  of  which 
we  have  here,  if  he  had  no  other  outside  instruction  from  either  the 
home,  school,  or  church  ?  -j.  i      •  n 

Father  Egan.  I  agree  with  you  very  much,  that  it  he  is  sexually 
uneducated,  if  he  has  not  been  taught  to  see  the  sanctity  and  the  dig- 
nity and  the  holiness  of  sex  from  God's  point  of  view,  if  they  see  this 
early  in  life,  they  do  think  it  is  a  normal  thing. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Father  Egan,  you  have  now  been  10  years  m 
all  these  cities  doing  this  wonderful  work,  giving  youth  guidances. 
This  filth  that  is  flooding  the  country  now,  all  over  the  country,  is  it 
on  the  increase  among  children  ?  t  .       i     i        o 

Father  Egan.  The  mere  fact  that  I  have  encountered  m  the  last  6 
months  what  I  have  not  encountered  before  would  prove  to  me  that 
it  is  definitely  on  the  increase  in  many  various  forms. 

A  little  kid  showed  me  recently  a  magazine  you  can  buy  at  the 
corner  now.  and  inserted  in  the  top  of  it  are  these  colored  glasses  that 
you  can  look  at  a  picture  and  you  see  a  picture  now  in  triple  dimen- 
sions. Like  when  you  go  to  the  movies— I  haven't  been  to  a  movie 
in  a  couple  of  years — but  you  go  to  some  movies,  I  understand,  you 
look  through  some  glasses,  I  understand,  and  you  see  the  thing  m 
triple  dimensions.  Now  tliey  sell  them  at  the  corner,  so  that  you 
look  at  the  art  magazines,  and  with  these  glasses  you  can  see  them 
in  triple  dimensions. 

Kids,  I  know,  numerous  cases  of  some  of  the  modern  magazines  tliat 
you  cm^'t  clfiss  legally  as  pornographic  material,  and  yet  while  the 


man  is  mixing  a  coke,  they  can  rip  out  these  nude  pictures  in  maga- 
zines like,  here  I  will  mention — well,  under  some  of  the  magazines 
they  can  rip  it  out  and  circulate  it  through  a  school,  and  that  one  pic- 
ture can  be  responsible  for  more  emotional  problems  that  way  than 
anything  else. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  are  speaking  now  of  magazines  that  are  sold  upon 
the  newsstand,  and  the  effect  that  they  might  have  but  not  of — previous 
to  this  you  were  speaking  of  pornography? 

Father  Egax,  I  was  speaking  of  pornography ;  yes. 

Mr.  Kefauver,  I  don't  think  that  the  average  person  is  aware  of 
this  1  fact,  that  whereas  if  a  man  were  to  sell  1  teen-ager  1 
marihuana,  that  marihuana  will  affect  this  1  teen-ager.  We  can  see 
the  effects  of  that  in  his  life.  But  1  piece  of  this  pornogi-aphic  ma- 
terial allowed  to  circulate  through  1  classroom  or  1  school  can  do 
harm  that  we  can't  estimate.  And  I  speak  under  correction,  but  I 
understand  tliere  is  some  suggestion  of  making  it  life  imprisonment 
for  anyone  who  is  importing  heroin  or  marijuana  as  in  vast  num- 
bers. \Yhy  couldn't  you  make  it  even  more  severe,  7  years,  for  a  man 
who  is  importing  and  producing  this,  he  is  corrupting,  he  is  rotting 
at  the  very  roots  of  our  Nation.  Communism  will  never  defeat  Amer- 
ica; it  is  something  within  the  Nation  that  is  going  to  rot  and  corrupt 
it;  and  there  should  be  a  more  stringent  law  than  just  2  or  3  years, 
or  7  years. 

Chairman  Kkfauver.  You  think  that  this  pornographic  literature 
is  having  a  substantial  effect  upon  that  degrading  process? 

Father  Eg  an.  Positively,  Senator. 

Chairman  KErAiTVER.  1  was  amazed.  Father  Egan,  one  day  you 
came  to  my  office,  and  I  will  always  remember.  You  said  you  had  just 
been  around  on  the  streets  of  Washington  and  you  picked  up  a  whole 
bundle  of  tliis,  not  art  magazines  but  pure  filth,  in  the  Nation's 
Capital,  and  you  brought  it  in  and  gave  it  to  me. 

Father  Egax.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  is  the  kind  of  thing  we  are  finding  in 
increasing  amounts  all  over  the  country. 

Father  Egan.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Senator  Langer  ? 

Senator  Langer.  No  questions.    Tliank  you. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Bobo,  anything  else? 

Mr.  BoBO.  Father  Egan,  does  this  make  generally  the  entire  social 
ground,  I  mean  from  the  low  social,  economic  group  up  to  the  very 
highest  ?    Wliere  would  you  say  it  was  most  ]Drevalent  ? 

Fatlier  Egan.  I  don't  work  very  often  with  the  higher  social  strata. 

Mr.  BoBO.  So  your  working  is  within  the  great  middle  group  where 
this  stuff  is  striking  ? 

Father  Egan.  I  talked  to  numerous  girls  who  have  posed  for  these 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Teenagers,  kids  ? 

Father  Egan.  Kids  who  would  be  playing  to  and  from  school.  They 
miglit  be  down  at  the  corner  having  a  coke,  or  they  might  be  at  a  show, 
and  someone  will  glide  up  to  them  and  convince  them  that  they  are 
photogenic,  or  they  would  look  pretty  in  a  picture,  and  give  tliem  $5 
or  $10,  and  from  that  one  negative  they  will  produce  many  others. 

Chairman  Kefauvter,  What  did  you  start  to  say,  sir  ? 


Father  Egan.  I  will  finish  this,  Senator,  by  sayino-  that  it  is  my  con- 
vinced opinion  that  if  we  are  ooin<r  to  do  anythin<r  about  this,  it  is 
soniethino;  far  deeper,  and  even  though  we  increase  tlie  number  of 
])layorounds,  even  though  we  increase  the  number  of  policemen,  even 
though  we  increase  everythin<r  else,  this  will  never  remove  the  danger 
of  this,  unless  we  find  the  cause  of  it  alL 

Today,  if  you  were  to  release  in  the  classroom  some  cold  germs,  teen- 
agers who  are  physically  Aveak  will  be  more  susceptible  to  the  germs; 
strong,  healthy  kids  will  not  be  contaminated  by  the  cold  germs. 

Today  teenagers  are  becoming  susceptible  to'  all  this  tilth,  not  be- 
cause there  is  really  more  of  it,  I  don't  think— maybe  it  is  on  the  in- 
crease, I  am  not  jjrepared  to  say  that  definitely— but  the  kids  today 
are  so  spiritually  sick,  they  don't  know  the  law^s  of  God,  they  don't 
know  why  they  should  be  good,  they  don't  know  the  sanctity  of  sex, 
and  because  of  this  they  are  suscej)tible  to  all  these  germs. 

If  we  are  going  to  do  anything  about  it,  it  won't  be  just  sufficient  to 
clear  this  up.  I  have  seen  this  when  I— I  went  to  public  high  school  in 
New^  York,  and  this  stuff  has  no  effect  on  some  kids.  Because  they 
knew  about  God,  they  knew  about  the  Ten  Connnandments,  which  are 
common  to  every  kid,  and  unless  they  know  this,  unless  they  know  the 
Commandments,  unless  they  know  why  they  should  be  goodj  then  tliere 
is  no  sense  just  clearing  up  the  newsstands  or  increasing  the  police 

Chairman  IvErAuvER.  Father  Egan,  in  your  testimony  you  have 
mentioned  some  specific  cities  where  you^  found  this  material.  I 
wwldn't  want  your  testimony,  or  your' reference  to  those  particular 
cities  to  make  it  ap]:>ear  that  they  are  different  or  any  worse  than 
many,  many  others.    The  fact  is,  some  of  them  may  be  better. 

I  mentioned  the  fact  that  you  have  found  some  material  in  the 
Nation's  Capital.  I  think  you  may  also  be  aware  of  the  tremendous 
effort  that  is  being  made  by  the  Washington  police  force,  and  many 
groups  in  Washington,  and  they  have  been  quite  effective  in  the  recent 
months  and  in  the  recent  years  in  cleaning  up  tliis  pornography  and 
filth  for  wdiicli  we  commend  them. 

So  that  I  don't  w^ant,  I  know  you  don't  want  your  testimony  to  be 
singling  out  one  place  as  a  bad  example. 

Father  Egan.  Certainly  not,  Senator. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  I  don't  want  to  do  that  either.  I  do  want 
to  commend  some  of  these  places  where  you  have  mentioned.  Here  in 
New  York  there  have  been  some  good  efforts  made.  There  have  been 
some  fine  efforts  made  in  Washington.  They  are  still  on  the  alert.  I 
hope  that  we  can  all  do  better  with  the  problem,  how^ever. 

All  right,  Father  Egan,  thank  you  very  much.  Our  best  wishes  in 
your  continued  work  with  the  young  people  of  our  Nation. 

Father  Egan.  Thank  you,  Senator. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  w^ill  have  a  5-minute  recess. 

(Short  recess  taken.) 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  subcommittee  will  come  to  order.  Every- 
body have  a  seat,  please. 

The  subcommittee  is  glad  to  have  James  A.  Fitzpatrick,  a  member 
of  the  assembly.  He  has  made  an  investigation  of  this  problem,  and 
has  sponsored  some  legislation  in  coimection  with  it. 

65203—55 6 


For  the  benefit  of  any  witnesses  who  were  not  here  when  we  started, 
anyone  who  is  called  and  feels  that  the  lights  and  movie  cameras  and 
television  discommodes  them,  or  they  would  be  embarrassed,  will  not 
be  required  to  testify  before  TV  or  the  cameras,  if  they  will  let  the 
staff  of  the  subcomittee  know.  We  appreciate  the  cooperation  of  the 
television  and  movie  people  in  this  connection. 

Mr.  Bobo,  who  is  our  next  witness  ? 

Mr.  BoBO.  We  have  subpenaed  a  number  of  witnesses  to  appear  be- 
fore this  subcommittee  either  today,  tomorrow  or  the  following  day ; 
and  we  have  asked  for  the  books  and  records  of  these  individuals  to  be 
produced  today.  •    t   •  i     ■, 

I  will  ask  Mr.  Martin  now  to  call  the  names  of  these  individuals. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Bobo,  it  is  apparent  we  are  not  going  to 
get  all  these  witnesses  today;  and  if  you  could  tell  the  witnesses  when 
to  come  back,  we  might  save  them  some  time. 

All  right,  Mr.  Martin. 

Mr.  Martin.  Abraham  Rubenstein. 

Chairman  IvEFAmTiR.  Is  Mr.  Eubenstein  here?  The  fact  any  wit- 
ness' name  has  been  called  doesn't  mean  he  is  in  the  pornographic 
business.     We  have  some  witnesses  who  will  testify  as  experts. 

We  have  had  some  charts  made.  As  Mr.  Chumbris  said,  we  are 
happy  to  state  this  has  been  exposed.  Prosecutions  have  been 
brought,  and  the  operation  shown  on  that  chart  no  longer  exists  by 
virtue  of  the  police  department  and  public  officials  of  Baltimore. 

Mr.  Deerson  is  our  next  witness.  Mr.  Deerson,  will  you  come 
around  ?  Mr.  Deerson,  no  one  questions  your  veracity,  but  it  is  pos- 
sible that  you  might  mention  someone's  name,  so  if  you  have  no  ob- 
jection I  would  like  to  swear  you. 


(William  Deerson  was  duly  sworn.) 

Chairman  IvEFAmTCR.  Mr.  Bobo,  let  us  qualify  Mr.  Deerson— who 

he  is. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Will  you  state  your  full  name  and  address  for  the  record? 

Mr.  Deerson.  INIy  name  is  William  Deerson.  I  am  the  dean  of  a 
New  York  city  high  school. 

Mr.  Bobo.  What  high  school  is  that? 

Mr.  Deerson.  Haaren  High  School,  New  York  City. 

Mr.  BoBO.  And  the  address  of  that  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  Eight  hundred  and  ninety-nine  10th  Avenue.  I  am 
also  employed  as  the  director  of  recreational  activities  at  the  Jewish 
Settlement  House,  at  128  Stanton  Street,  New  York  City. 

Mr.  BoBO.  For  how  many  years  have  you  been  dean  of  discipline 
at  the  Haaren  High  School  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  One  year.  .  . 

Mr.  Bobo.  Previous  to  that  time  what  was  your  position  i 

Mr.  Deerson.  Teacher  of  health  education  in  that  particular  school. 

Mr.  Bobo.  For  how  long  were  you  teacher  of  health  education  m 
that  school  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  For  12  years. 

Mr.  Bobo.  And  your  local  address  is  what? 

Mr.  Deerson.  2555  Bainbridge  Avenue,  Bronx,  N.  Y. 


Mr.  BoBO.  For  how  lono-  have  you  been  a  school  teacher? 

Mr,  Deerson.  Since  1934. 

Mr.  Bono.  Has  all  that  time  been  in  the  city  of  New  York  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefau\t:r.  You  are  also  employed  by  the  Jewish  Set- 
tlement House  on  the  East  Side,  located  at  128  Stanton  Street ;  is  that 
correct  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  That  is  correct. 

Chairman  Kefau^'er.  You  are  employed  there  in  what  capacity? 

Mr.  Deerson.  Director  of  recreational  activities  and  physical  activ- 

Chairman  Kefau^t:r.  How  long  have  you  been  so  employed  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  12  years. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  In  your  two  positions  do  you  come  in  contact 
with  a  very  large  number  of  school  children  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  Yes,  I  do. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  you  have  a  chance  to  observe  them,  and 
talk  with  them,  and  see  what  influences  them  for  the  good  or  the  bad  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefaui'er.  See  what  they  are  reading,  and  what  is 
influencing  their  minds  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  That  is  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Very  well,  proceed,  Mr.  Bobo. 

Mr.  BoBO.  How  many  students  are  at  Haaren  High  School? 

Mr.  Deerson.  About  2,000  boys. 

Mr.  BoBO.  As  dean  of  discipline  is  it  your  position  to  deal  with 
wayward  acts  and  delinquent  acts  of  children  in  the  school? 

Mr.  Deerson.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Misbehavior  problems  within  the  school  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Has  it  come  to  your  attention,  Mr.  Deerson,  that  any  of 
the  students  of  the  high  school,  Haaren  High  School,  have  come  in 
contact  with  or  had  in  their  possession  any  pornographic  materials 
of  any  types? 

Mr.  Deerson.  Yes,  they  have. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Would  you  say  to  what  extent? 

Mr.  Deerson.  Well,  recently  I  noticed  that  quite  a  few  boys  have 
been  passing  theses  booklets  around  among  the  other  boys.  Some  have 
been  selling  them.  It  seems  that  some  boys  purchase  a  booklet,  and 
after  they  have  seen  it  and  passed  it  around  they  may  sell  it  to  another 
boy  at  a  profit. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Would  you  describe  what  these  booklets  are  that  you 
are  speaking  of  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  The  booklets  are  the  severe  filthy  type  of  porno- 
grapliic  material,  unnatural  perverted  types  of  sex  acts. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  not  talking  about  art  magazines? 

Mr.  Deerson.  No,  I  am  not. 

Mr.  BoBo.  You  are  speaking  of  what  is  connnonly  referred  to  as  the 
2-by-4  book  and  4-by-5-type  book  that  is  sold — photographic  pictures 
along  with  a  printed  story? 

Mr.  Deerson.  That  type  and  othei-s. 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  the  questioning  of  some  of  the  boys  who  have  had 
it  in  their  possession,  and  those  who  have  sold  it,  Avhat  is  tlie  price 
these  books  usually  sell  for  in  the  school? 


Mr.  Deerson.  Usually  the  postal-card  type  is  sold  for  about  25 
cents.  The  Maggie  and  Jiggs  type  may  be  sold  anywhere  from  25 
cents  to  half  a  dollar.  The  card-playing  type,  where  a  deck  of  cards 
is  purchased,  let  us  say,  for  $5  on  the  outside,  they  are  resold  for  any- 
where from  15  to  25  cents  per  card. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  have  the  figures  as  to  the  number  of  boys  that 
have  been  known  to  sell  pornographic  literature  within  the  high 
school  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  I  have  discovered  three  boys  this  term. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Three  boys  selling  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  Yes. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  have  any  figures  as  to  the  number  who  have 
had  it  in  their  possession  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  No  ;  I  have  not. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  have  any  knowledge  as  to  the  extent  that  tins 
traffic  might  reach  where  one  boy  would  buy  it,  and  to  how  many  it 
would  be  passed  around  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  I  have  only  discovered  about  five  boys  selling  the 
material  this  term.    There  niay  be  others.    I  don't  know. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  found  out  from  the  three  boys  who  have  been 
selling  it  where  thev  might  have  obtained  the  material  themselves  to 

sell  it?  "^  ... 

JNIr.  Deerson.  Yes ;  thev  have  told  me  they  purchase  it  from  men 
around  New  York  City.  They  purchase  it  on  the  Bowery.  Some  have 
said  tliey  have  purchased  it  oii  42d  Street,  Sixth  Avenue,  the  lower  East 
Side,  and  especially  among  the  men  who  sell  old  hats,  razor  blades. 
They  sell  old  watches. 

Mr.  Bono.  A  typical  street  peddler? 

]\Ir.  Deerson.  Street  peddlers :  and  among  their  items  will  be  porno- 
graphic material. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  found,  Mr.  Deerson,  that  this  is  usually  a  sur- 
reptitious operation,  not  open  and  aboveboard  among  the  boys,  or 
among  the  street  peddlers;  that  it  is  carried  under  the  counter  or 
under  other  goods  which  they  have  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  The  material  is  in  the  man's  pockets:  and  m  passing 
by  a  man  will  ap])roach  a  voung  teen-ager  and  ask  him  to  purchase  it. 

Mr.  Bono.  As  dean  of  discipline  in  this  particular  high  school,  have 
you  found  that  there  is  a  certain  inquisitiveness  among  the  students 
there  to  read  this  particular  type  of  literature? 

Mr.  Deerson.  Definitely. 

Mr.  Bono.  Would  you  think  that  this  particular  type  of  literature 
would  cause  any  increase  in  sexual  activities  among  the  students  at 
Haaren  High  School? 

Mr.  Deerson.  I  believe  so. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  this  a  coeducational  school? 

Mr.  Deerson.  No  ;  it  is  all  boys. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Would  vou  think  this  particular  material  and  the  read- 
ing of  this  material  would  in  any  way  affect  the  juvenile-delinquency 
rate  of  the  students  in  this  particular  high  school  ?  .     ■,  c 

Mr.  Deerson.  T  believe  there  is  some  relationship.  There  is  defi- 
nitely a  connection  between  the  juvenile-delinquency  rate  and  the  read- 
ing of  this  material. 

I  feel  that  the  material  when  read  excites  the  young  man ;  it  stimu- 
lates him  and  mav  lead  to  some  overt  act. 


Mr.  J^oBo.  From  your  contacts  with  tlie  other  teaching  staffs  of  the 
public  schools  in  New  York,  and  also  in  the  parochial  schools,  and  in 
other  cities  outside  of  the  city  of  New  York,  has  it  come  to  your  atten- 
tion that  they  sutfer  from  a  similar  problem  which  you  face  in  your 
school ? 

Mr.  Deerson.   I  believe  so. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Have  you  ever  discussed  it  with  any  of  them? 

Mr.  Deerson.  No;  I  have  never  discussed  it  with  anybody  from 
anywliere  else. 

Mr.  BoBO.  I  believe  I  asked  you  the  question.  Was  this  a  coeduca- 
tional hifjh  school  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  No  ;  it  is  a  boys'  school. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Altogether  a  boys'  school? 

Mr.  Deerson.  All  boys. 

Mr.  Martin.  I  notice  you  have  an  envelope  there.  Would  that  be 
some  of  the  material  that  has  been  confiscated  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  Yes.  I  have  a  variety  of  tlie  various  pornographic 
material  in  this  envelope. 

Mr.  Martin.  Would  you  object  to  turning  it  over  to  the  committee? 

Mr.  Deerson.  I  don't  object  at  all. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  is  typical  of  what  you  have  been  finding 
.among  these  boys  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  That  is  correct. 

Chairman  Kefaiver.  Give  it  to  Mr.  Butler. 

Mr.  Deerson.  I  will  be  glad  to. 

Chairman  Kefai  ver.  How  old  are  these  boys? 

Mr.  Deerson.  From  14  to  18. 

Chairman  KeFxVuver?  Do  you  find  the  same  sort  of  thing  at  the 
Jewish  Settlement  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  Yes.     Only  there  it  might  be  younger  than  14. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Plow  old  are  they? 

Mr.  Deerson.  They  range  anywhere  from  11  to  20. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  you  find  that  some  of  these  people  sell 
them  pornographic  literature,  and  they  in  turn  distribute  it  and  sell 
it  to  other  kids  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  In  the  settlement  house  it  is  not  sold. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  But  among  the  boys  that  you  see  at  the  settle- 
ment house  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  Yes ;  some  of  them  do  sell  some  of  the  pictures,  espe- 
cially the  playing-card  type. 

Chairman  Kefaua'er.  Go  ahead,  Mr.  Bobo. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Do  you  have  any  knowledge  as  to  what  the  extent  of 
this  traffic  might  be  among  the  teen-agers  in  New  York  City? 

Mr.  Deerson.  I  have  noticed  an  inci-ease  in  the  amount  of  booklets 
being  passed  around.  By  booklets,  I  mean  pornographic  story  type 
with  pictures.  I  understand  from  one  boy  that  there  is  a  series  of  10 
of  a  similar  size,  approximately  4  by  6.  In  the  exhibit  that  I  just 
brought  in  I  have  two  samples  of  that  type. 

Of  course,  as  Father  Egan  said,  it  is  not  the  number  of  booklets; 
it  is  the  passage  of  one  fi-om  one  boy  to  another  that  causes  a  greater 

Mr.  Bobo.  Is  that  a  new  problem  at  the  school  ?  Have  you  noticed 
a  stead}^  increase,  or  is  it  a  recent  problem  ? 


Mr.  Deerson.  I  have  noticed  a  steady  increase,  especially  the  pass- 
ing from  one  stage  to  another. 

Tlie  art  books  sold  on  the  newsstands,  I  believe,  tend  to  stimulate 
these  boys  to  seek  a  stronger  type  of  material. 

Chairman  KErAu\T3R.  Senator  Langer,  do  you  have  any  questions? 

Senator  Langer.  No. 

Chairman  Kefaumcr.  j\Ir.  Deerson,  do  you  feel  that  this  influence 
is  one  of  the  influences  that  is  contributing  to  juvenile  delinquency? 

Mr.  Deerson.  I  definitely  believe  so. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  it  is  on  the  increase  ? 

Mr.  Deerson.  I  believe  so. 

Chairman  KE^Au^^ER.  What  you  have  in  your  school,  of  course,  is 
just  a  typical  situation  not  only  of  other  high  schools  but  high  schools 
all  throughout  the  Nation?  Your  high  school  is  just  about  like  any 
other  boys'  school  ? 

JSIr.  Deerson.  That  is  right.    I  believe  it  is  a  typical  school. 

Chairman  KEFAU^^2R.  I  wanted  it  clear  that  we  asked  you  to  come 
here,  not  in  an  effort  to  criticize  your  school,  but  to  show  that  hap- 
pens in  a  typical  school  like  you  have. 

Mr.  Deerson.  That  is  correct. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Thank  you  very  much,  sir. 

Dr.  Benjamin  Karpman. 


Dr.  Karpman,  are  you  going  to  talk  about  names  of  people,  and 
whatnot,  in  your  testimony  ? 

Dr.  Karpman.  Professional  people  don't  mention  names. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Very  well.  If  these  lights  bother  you,  you 
can  say  so. 

Dr.  Karpman.  It  is  all  right. 

Chairman  Kefaita-er.  Dr.  Karpman,  it  is  good  to  have  you  with  us. 
You  are  Dr.  Benjamin  Karpman,  cliief  psychotherapist  of  St.  Eliza- 
beths Hospital  in  Washington,  D.  C.  ? 

Dr.  Karpman.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  St.  Elizabeths  Hospital  is  one  of  the 
largest  and  best  known  and  best  operated  of  our  mental  institutions 
for  the  treatment  of  mental  disturbances ;  is  that  correct  ? 

Dr.  Karpman.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  been  connected  with  St.  Elizabeths 
Hospital  for  how  long? 

Dr.  Karpman.  35  years. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Since  1919  ? 

Dr.  Karpman.  That  is  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  is  your  educational  qualifications  and 
background,  Dr.  Karpman  ? 

Dr.  Karpman.  I  have  a  degree  in  chemistry  and  pharmacv  from 
Columbia ;  a  bachelors  degree  from  the  University  of  North  Dakota ;  a 
bachelor  of  medicine  degree  from  the  University  of  Minnesota;  and 
I  also  have  a  diploma  from  the  University  of  Vienna,  postgraduate 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  study  of  criminology  is  your  life's  work? 

Dr.  Karpman.  That  is  right. 


Chairman  Kefauvicr.  I  think  I  can  say  that  Dr.  Karpnian  is  one  of 
the  most  eminently  and  highly  respected  and  knowledgeable  crimi- 
nologists in  the  world. 

Dr.  Karpman,  we  feel  you  are  unusually  well  qualified  to  tell  us  in 
some  detail  of  the  matters  that  we  are  discussing  here  today  as  it 
relates  to  juvenile  delinquency. 

Mr.  Bobo,  will  you  carry  on. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Dr.  Karpman,  would  you  describe  for  us  in  professional 
terms  the  meaning  of  pornographic  literature — what  you  interpret 
pornographic  literature  to  be  ? 

Dr.  Karpman.  Every  community  employs  certain  restrictions  on  its 
citizens,  and  one  of  the  restrictions  is  verbal  communication  of  certain 
private  matters  which  can  be  discussed  very  privately  among  some 
people,  but  cannot  be  discussed  in  public.  Among  this  is  included  cer- 
tain material  dealing  with  the  private  sex  lives  of  individuals. 

The  intimate  relations  that  are  established  between  people  in  private 
relations — however,  there  are  some  people  who  seem  to  take  satisfac- 
tion in  spreading  this  type  of  material  abroad ;  and  these  are  the  people 
who  indulge  in  pornographic  material. 

There  are  tw^o  aspects  to  this  pornographic  material.  There  is  the 
doer,  the  one  that  secures  pornographic  material  for  distribution ;  and 
then  there  is  the  victim  who  is  exposed  to  that  by  the  material  of  the 
other  doer. 

For  this  reason  in  order  to  develop  pornographic  literature  you 
have  got  to  have  people  who  make  a  speciality  of  this  poino'jrai^hic 
literature.  They  go  to  the  trouble  of  engaging  people  to  pose  for  them 
in  various  unmentionable  poses,  and  then  after  they  get  the  material 
they  get  victims  who  pay  certain  amounts  of  money  for  the  purpose 
of  being  able  to  see  this  material. 

This  material  deals  with  sexual  matters,  with  sexual  relations, 
but  not  with  the  normal  so-called  average  type  of  sexual  relations. 
There  is  no  interest  in  that,  but  usually  with  the  type  of  sex  mate- 
rial that  ordinarily  is  prohibited  or  at  least  is  unmentionable. 

For  instance,  homosexuality  and  perversions.  In  homosexuals  we 
often  get  pictures  of  people  engaged  in  homosexual  relations  of  a 
great  variety.  Tliere  are  dilferences  in  homosexual  relations  in  men, 
and  there  are  difl'erences  in  homosexual  relations  in  women.  This 
is  pure  homosexuality ;  but  between  homosexuality  on  the  one  hand, 
and  so-called  heterosexuality,  on  the  other  hand,  there  are  a  large 
group  of  people  and  activities  which  are  called  perversions. 

Perversions  may  occur  between  couples,  men  and  women,  but  in 
entirely  abnormal  and  pathological  ways — for  instance,  different 
positions,  different  matters  of  acting. 

This  is  what  is  the  purpose  of  pornographic  men,  and  people  pay 
money  for  that. 

There  would  be  no  problem  in  pornographic  literature  if  this  was 
exposed  to  people  who  are  normally  developed  and  have  been  able 
to  develop  normal  inhibitions,  repressions  and  control. 

Unfortunately  it  is  often  given  to  people  of  adolescent  ages,  which 
from  our  point  of  view  is  a  very  unstable  period  of  life.  Anything 
may  happen  during  adolescence.  You  can  take  a  perfectly  healthy 
boy  or  girl  and  by  exposing  them  to  abnormalities  you  can  virtually 
crystallize  and  settle  their  lives  for  the  rest  of  their  lives. 


If  they  are  not  exposed  to  that  they  may  develop  to  perfectly 
healthy,  normal  citizens.  It  is  here  that  objection  comes  upon  porno- 
graphic literature. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  mean  a  perfectly  normal,  healthy  boy  or  girl,  12 
or  13  years  of  age,  if  exposed  to  pornogTaphic  literature,  could 
thereby  develop  into  a  homosexual  ? 

Dr.  Karpman.  That  is  right;  because  from  our  point  of  view — we 
are  not  all  normally,  what  we  call  heterosexual.  We  don't  belong 
to  one  sex.  All  of  us  are  bisexual.  Every  man  has  some  element 
of  a  woman  in  him,  because  he  has  inherited  that  from  his  mother. 
In  other  words,  every  man  has,  from  our  i)oint  of  view,  a  feminine 
component.  Every  women  has,  from  our  point  of  view,  a  masculine 
component,  which  she  has  inherited  from  her  father. 

The  proportion  of  this  varies,  but  usually  the  masculine  compo- 
nent in  a  man  is  large,  let  us  say,  85  percent,  whereas  the  feminine 
component  in  a  man  is  very  small,  let  us  say,  10  to  15  percent;  but 
because  adolescence  is  a  very  unstable  stage  of  development,  if.  you 
expose  a  boy  to  an  abnormal  behavior  it  will  play  upon  the  unde- 
veloped feminine  component,  and  he  might  become  liomosexual, 

Mr.  Bono.  Do  you  think  the  reading  of  pornographic  literature 
in  addition  to  maybe  changing  his  sex  habits  in  life  might  also  have 
an  etl'ect  upon  him  more  of  a  tendency  to  become  a  juvenile  delin- 
quent ? 

Dr.  Karpman.  I  believe  there  is  a  definite  relationship  between 
juvenile  delinquency  and  sex  life.  We  started  from  this  point  of 
view.  Our  life  from  our  point  of  view  is  guided  by  our  instincts. 
We  have  two  main  instincts — the  self-preservati^^e  instinct,  and  the 
race-preservative  instinct,  commonly  known  as  the  hunger  and  sex 

Instincts  that  spread  by  tension — you  and  I  will  never  know  that  we 
are  hungry  unless  there  would  develop  in  the  stomach  some  sort  of 
tension  which  sends  a  message  to  the  brain  and  tells  us  that  we  are 
hungry.  In  other  words,  we  know  of  our  sex  life  and  of  our  personal 
life,  of  hunger  life,  only  through  the  medium  of  tension  developing. 

Tension  is  tension.  When  a  young  boy  and  girl,  for  instance — you 
take  a  .young  boy  who  is  reaching  adolescence,  and  he  is  hungry  for  in- 
formation on  sex,  but  for  some  reason  or  another  doesn't  get  it  at  home 
because  the  mother  and  father  are  too  tired  to  talk  to  them  about  four- 
letter  words  and  other  nasty  things. 

Where  is  the  boy  going  to  find  it  ?  He  cannot  find  it  at  home.  He 
doesn't  always  find  it  in  school.  Very  few  schools  have  developed 
to  the  point  of  giving  lectures  on  the  subjects  of  the  facts  of  life.  He 
looks  for  it  in  the  gutter,  aud  there  he  comes  across  pornographic  ma- 
terial and  literature,  and  that  draws  him  into  all  sorts  of  gang  life, 
which  later  discharges  itself  as  juvenile  delinquency. 

In  other  words,  here  is  a  boy  who  is  under  a  great  deal  of  sexual 
tension.  The  home  environment  will  not  permit  him  to  discharge 
the  sexual  tension  in  normal  sex  relations.  Society  doesn't  permit 
that  in  a  premarital  way.  Tension  is  tension.  It  must  break  through. 
If  he  cannot  discharge  it  in  a  sexual  way,  he  discharges  it  in  a  crim- 
inal antisocial  way. 

Mr.  Boiio.  Thereby  causing  him  to  engage  in  gang  activities? 

Dr.  Karpman".  That  is  right.  There  is  a  very  direct  relationship 
between  juvenile  delinquency,  sex  life,  and  pornographic  literature. 


Mr.  BoBO.  Would  it  be  your  opinion  that  a  youn^-  hoy  in  reading 
porno<2:raphic  literature  would  he  inclined  to  connnit  some  of  the 
various  sex  crimes  of  rape,  or  many  other  variations  ? 

Dr.  Karpman.  Some;  not  all.  It  all  depends  on  the  orijLiinal  make- 
up of  the  boy.  There  are  some  boys  who  have  developed  from  early 
childhood  interest  in  dirty  matters.  For  instance.  I  have  known 
boys  only  5  or  G  years  old,  who  every  time  they  would  go  to  the  bath- 
room to  move  their  bowels  would  always  look  at  the  stool.  They 
vrould  even  take  the  stool  and  press  it  and  squeeze  it,  showing  a  cer- 
tain curiosity  about  it. 

This  type  of  boy  who  from  early  childhood  has  shown  interest  in 
those  matters  is  the  type  of  boy  when  confronted  with  pornographic 
literature  will  just  fall  for  it  hard. 

There  are,  however,  other  boys  who  are  brought  up  in  a  very  severe 
puritanical  environment,  and  that  boy  may  shy  away  from  porno- 
gra])liic  literature.     There  is  no  set  rule  about  it. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Have  you  noticed  coming  to  your  attention  more  children 
that  have  had  contact  with  pornographic  literature? 

Dr.  Karpman.  I  wouldn't  say  that  I  have  come  in  contact  with  more. 
I  am  not  able  to  give  you  any  statistics.  I  know  that  I  have  been 
testifying  very  often  for  the  Post  Office  Department.  They  come  in 
contact  with  a  larger  amount  of  pornographic  literature.  This  has 
been  a  problem  of  the  Post  Office  Department  all  the  time. 

For  instance,  there  are  a  group  of  people  that  w^e  call  perverts,  who 
specialize  in  s])anking.  They  derive  satisfaction,  sexual  satisfaction, 
out  of  spanking  others  and  being  spanked. 

You  sometimes  get  pictures  of  people,  naked,  nude,  one  after  the 
other,  each  one  in  front  s])anking  the  other  one.  They  even  pub- 
lished a  journal  called  Bareback,  and  that  is  how  the  Post  Office  De- 
partment got  it,  because  they  were  sending  obscene  literature  through 
the  mail.  They  arrested  them.  That  doesn't  make  any  difference. 
You  can  arrest  today  all  the  people  of  this  type  that  you  can.  To- 
morrow morning  you  have  another  group,  because  the  conditions 
which  produce  them  remain  constant. 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  these  spanking  photos — and  I  presume  that  you  would 
include  the  chain  photos — the  ones  where  the  women  wear  the  long 
black  highheel  boots  ? 

Dr.  Karpman.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  think  it  is  possible  this  particular  type  of  litera- 
ture, even  though  it  doesn't  show  a  complete  nude  body,  might  also 
have  an  effect  upon  juveniles  and  their  sex  life? 

Dr.  Karpman.  Yes ;  indeed.  What  they  do  not  see,  the  imagination 
supplies  the  rest.  In  other  words,  you  only  have  to  expose,  we  will 
say,  one  bare  leg  of  a  woman,  and  her  thigh,  and  then  the  imagination 
will  supply  the  rest. 

Mr.'BoBO.  So  that  the  fact  that  under  your  definition,  these  bondage 
and  spanking  and  whipping  photos  are  pornographic  in  nature? 

Dr.  Karpman.  Absolutely ;  they  are  pornographic  in  the  sense  that 
they  stimulate  the  mind  to  abnormal  sexual  practices. 

What  you  speak  of  is  what  we  psychiatrists  know  as  sadism, 
masochism,  fetishism,  and  so  on.  These  are  abnormal  sexual  prac- 
tices— men  who  are  sadists  and  masochists  usually  get  together.  One 
is  a  sadist  and  one  is  a  masochist.  The  couple  need  not  be  only  men 
or  only  women.     Sometimes  it  is  a  man  and  a  woman. 


Oddly  enough,  it  is  the  woman  who  is  the  sadist,  and  it  is  a  big 
strong  husky  man  that  is  the  masochist.  The  woman  gets  a  hold  of 
a  whip,  and  it  is  amazing  how  they  can  use  a  whip  on  a  big  strong 
husky  man,  and  he  takes  all  she  can  give  him,  and  out  of  that  both 
derive  a  certain  amount  of  what  we  call  physical  satisfaction. 

These  things  are  sometimes  enlarged  in  people,  in  children  brought 
up  at  the  age  of  3,  4,  5  years  old.  If  pornographic  literature  would 
not  come  along  it  would  remain  within  certain  confines — not  normal, 
because  only  psychoanalysis  can  cure  that. 

The  pornogTaphic  literature  casts  it  broadly  and  widely,  and  at- 
tracts people  who  would  otherwise  remain  entirely  innocent. 

Mr.  Bono.  Pornographic  literature,  as  I  understand  you,  doesn't 
affect  only  teen-agers,  but  can  go  down  to  the  age  of  5  or  6? 

Dr.  Karpman.  Yes,  absolutely ;  if  it  falls  on  proper  soil.  You  take, 
for  instance,  a  person  who  has  developed  normally.  If  you  take  that 
kind  of  a  person  and  expose  them  to  literature  when  they  were  5  years 
old,  he  wouldn't  know  what  it  means.  He  may  have  been  brought  up 
in  a  very  good  home  w^hich  was  probably  severely  puritanical,  but  he 
went  to' church  and  controlled  himself,  and  so  on.  That  boy  is  not 
likelv  to  be  influenced  by  the  exposure ;  but  you  take  a  boy  who  has 
developed  from  early  childhood,  from  our  point  of  view,  developed 
from  early  childhood  sadistic,  masochistic,  fetishistic,  or  cannibalistic 
tendencies,  and  there  you  have  something  from  which  he  can  go. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Would  you  say  that  among  the  juvenile  popu- 
lation of  today  that  sexual  perversion  is  on  the  increase'^ 

Dr.  KARr^tAN.  I  would  have  to  cite  statistics,  and  it  is  impossible 
under  these  circumstances  to  cite  statistics.  You  cannot,  because  they 
will  deny  it.  I  believe  it  is  on  the  increase,  and  I  will  give  you  one 
proof ;  the  world  war. 

As  a  result  of  war  certain  changes  have  taken  place  in  our  sex  life. 
Women  were  committing  adultery  because  they  were  left  without  men. 
That  is  one  change.  That  disturbs  the  basic  living  of  our  com- 

Some  women  have  taken  other  women  as  partners  to  take  the  place 
of  the  husband,  because  they  did  not  want  to  commit  adultery,  and  so 
they  thought  they  were  remaining  within  the  levels  of  normality;  but 
two  women  would  get  together  and  play  with  each  other,  and  some, 
even  harmless. 

Men  coming  from  war  over  and  over  again  would  become  changed  in 
their  sex  lives.  That  was  demonstrated  very  well  by  the  popular 
song  during  World  War  I— My  Buddy.  It  is  a  typical  homosexual 
song  which  glorified  the  companionship  of  men  with  men. 

Then  during  the  war  there  were  also  magazine  articles — Men  With- 
out Women — which  also  emphasizes  the  problem  of  homosexuality. 

There  have  been  many  divorces  as  a  result  of  tlie  war.  There  have 
been  many  murders.  A  man  stayed  away  during  the  war  for  2  or  3 
years,  came  back,  and  regardless  of  how  faithful  the  wife  might  have 
been  to  him,  there  was  always  a  suspicion  of  jeolousy  in  them,  and 
many  of  them  committed  murder.  I  had  a  number  of  them  among 
my  patients. 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  addition  to  creating  certain  perversions  among  chil- 
dren, when  an  older  person  shows  to  a  child  pornographic  literature, 
what  is  the  effect  of  that?  Is  he  attempting  to  get  him  to  engage  in 
perversion  acts  ? 


Dr.  Karpmajst.  Men  sonieliow  or  another  do  not  realize  they  cannot 
be  as  competent  sexually  at  65  as  they  were  at  25,  and  they  still  expect 
at  65  to  be  perfectly  healthy  and  normal  and  be  able  to  satisfy  a  woman. 

A  time  comes  when  they  are  not  able  to  satisfy  a  woman.  A  time 
comes  when  they  are  able  to  satisfy  only  in  a  moderate  degree,  but 
not  the  way  they  were  able  to  satisfy  them  before. 

Very  often  it  happen  that  men,  as  time  goes  on,  become  less  and  less 
and  less  competent  sexually,  but  they  don't  want  to  admit  it.  Then 
they  suffer  what  we  call  regression.  They  begin  to  go  down  to  the  level 
of  childhood,  and  the  man  becomes  almost  like  a  child,  and  being  a 
child  he  thinks  like  a  child.  He  feels  like  a  child,  and  therefore  tries 
to  play  with  children. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  think  also  that  among  the  young  people,  espe- 
cially of  high-school  age,  that  rather  than  involve  the  danger  of  pos- 
sible conception,  that  pornography  has  given  them  the  idea  in  other 
forms  of  sexual  satisfaction? 

Dr.  Kakpman.  Pornography  may  not  have  given  them  the  idea, 
but  it  may  have  supported  it.  One  homosexual  woman  that  I  had 
under  observation  told  a  young  girl  who  was  pei-fectly  normal — but  it 
^as  during  the  war,  and  men  were  scarce — and  she  came  to  her  and 
said,  "^'V^lat  do  you  want  to  bother  with  men  for  anyway  ?  There  is 
always  the  possibility  of  disease;  there  is  always  the  possibility  of 
pregnancy.  There  would  be  no  chance  of  pregnancy  if  you  went  out 
with  me.    "Wliat  is  tliere  a  man  can  do  that  I  cannot  do  ?" 

She  dresses  herself  up  in  male  clothes,  and  looks  like  a  man  and  acts 
like  a  man,  and  she  tries  to  simulate  the  activities  of  men;  and  that  is 
how  women  homosexuals  often  develop. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Senator  Langer,  do  you  have  any  questions? 

Senator  Langer.  How  long  have  you  been  at  the  hospital  in  Wash- 
ington ? 

Dr.  Karpman".  35  years,  with  the  exception  of  a  year  and  a  half 
when  I  was  in  Europe  studying  and  doing  postgraduate  work. 

Senator  Danger.  Thank  you. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  were  born  in  North  Dakota? 

Dr.  Karpman.  No. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  lived  in  North  Dakota? 

Dr.  Karpman.  Yes.  I  was  at  Columbia;  I  was  at  Michigan,  and 
I  was  always  looking  for  a  smaller  school,  and  I  found  it  in  North 
Dakota.  Everybody  knows  everybody  else.  You  are  just  like  friends. 
You  have  no  such  thing  like  that  in  a  large  city  like  this,  where  every- 
body is  everybody  else's  enemy.  In  North  Dakota  everybody  is  every- 
body's friend,  just  like  in  Tennessee. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Dr.  Karpman,  we  do  certainly  thank  you  for 
the  valuable  information  you  have  given  to  this  committee. 

Dr.  Karpman.  Thank  you  very  much. 

Chairman  Kefauv'er.  We  appreciate  your  coming  up  to  New  York. 

Mr.  BoBO.  I  am  going  to  ask  Mr.  Martin  to  call  the  names  of  the 
witnesses  who  have  been  subpenaed  to  appear  here  today  and  to  pre- 
sent their  books  and  records — and  will  you  come  forward  at  the  time 
in  which  he  calls  your  name  ? 

Mr.  Martin.  Abraham  Rubenstein.    Abraham  Ruben. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  is  your  name? 

Mr.  Weiss.  Daniel  S.  Weiss,  15  East  40th  Street. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  represent  Mr.  Ruben  ? 


Mr.  Weiss.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  iis  make  it  the  first  thing  in  the  after- 
noon.   Let  us  saj  1 :  30. 

Mr.  Weiss.  Very  good. 

Mr.  Martin.  Has  Mr.  Ruben  brought  his  books  ^Yith  him  ? 

Mr.  Weiss.  Wliat  books  are  you  interested  in? 

Mr.  Martin.  He  has  been  asked  to  produce  his  State  and  Federal 
income-tax  retm-ns  for  tlie  years  1950  to  1954. 

Mr.  Weiss.  We  have  that. 

Mr.  Martin.  The  records  of  his  business,  bankbooks,  bank  state- 
ments, checkbooks,  check  stubs. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Weiss,  we  will  take  care  of  those  things 
and  see  that  they  are  returned  intact.  Mark  them  and  catalog  them 

Mr.  Weiss.  That  will  be  tomorrow  at  1 :  30  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  will  recess  for  hmch  and  come  back  at 
1 :  30  or  2  o'clock.    Let  us  say  1 :  30  to  be  sure. 

Mr.  Weiss.  Thank  you  very  much. 

Mr.  Martin.  Mr.  Herman  Sobeh 

Mr.  BouRAR.  I  am  the  attorney  for  Mr.  Sobel. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  will  be  glad  to  have  you  with  us,  Mr. 
Bohrar.    You  are  the  attorney  for  Mr.  Sobel? 

Mr.  BoHRAR.  I  am. 

Chairman  Kkfauaer.  When  did  you  want  to  have  Mr.  Sobel  come 
to  testify?    Would  it  be  convenient  to  come  back  at  2:  30  tomorrow? 

Mr.  BoHRAR  That  will  be  perfectly  all  right.  We  have  some  rec- 
ords here. 

Mr.  Martin.  T  wonder  if  Mr.  Bohrar  would  care  to  define  what 
records  you  have  produced  ? 

Mr.  Bohrar.  Canceled  checks. 

Mr.  Martin.  How  about  the  State  and  Federal  income-tax  returns? 

Mr.  Bohrar  He  hasn't  got  any.  He  hasn't  kept  any  records.  He 
has  filed  reports,  but  he  hasn't  kept  copies  of  them. 

Mr.  Martin.  Don't  you  know  under  the  law  he  is  required  to  keep 
records  of  his  business  ? 

Mr.  Bohrar.  T  understand  that,  but  he  hasn't  got  them. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  Mv.  Sobel  the  head  of  a  corporation? 

Mr.  Bohrar.  He  is  an  individual. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  kind  of  books  did  you  keep,  sir? 

Mr.  Bohrar.  He  doesn't  keep  any  books. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Just  keeps  them  in  his  head? 

Mr.  Bohrar.  Keeps  them  in  his  head.  He  tells  me  there  are  a  great 
number  of  judgments  against  him,  and  he  cannot  keep  records  for 
that  reason.  He  doesn't  keep  any  money  in  the  bank  because  he  hasn't 
got  any  money. 

Chairman  Kefaua'er.  He  is  in  bad  shape? 

Mr.  Bohrar.  He  ])uts  a  certain  amount  of  money  in  the  bank  just  to 
make  good  the  checks. 

Mr.  Martin.  He  was  subpenaed  to  produce  checkbooks,  and  check 
stubs.    "Wliere  are  they — the  canceled  checks? 

Mr.  Bohrar.  That  is  all  he  has. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  suggest  you  look  again  and  see  if  you  cannot 
find  more  lecord^  and  books  of  your  business. 


Mr.  Butler,  will  you  mark  those?  We  will  keep  tliem  and  return 
them  to  you,  Mr.  Bohrar. 

Mr.  Martin.  Mr.  Abe  Eotto. 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  was  subpenaed  for  this  morning.  I  am  waiting  for 
my  attorney. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  How  about  11  o'clock  tomorrow  morning? 

Mr.  Rcrro.  That  will  be  all  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  some  books  and  records,  Mr.  Rotto? 

Mr.  Rotto.  What  1  was  asked  to  bi'ing  along — the  income-tax  re- 
ports.    I  haven't  kept  any  books. 

Mr.  Martin.  Do  you  have  any  books  ? 

Mr.  Rotto.  I  haven't  kept  any  books.  I  am  just  a  free-lance  sales- 

Mr.  Martin.  How  about  your  bank  accounts? 

Mr.  Rotto.  I  have  one  of  those  10-cent  checking  accounts. 

Mr.  Martin.  Do  you  have  the  canceled  checks  ? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  Only  for  the  last  month  or  so.  I  get  my  statement, 
check  it  off,  and  throw  it  away.  I  never  have  more  than  50  or  60 
dollars  in  the  bank. 

Mr.  Martin.  Do  you  own  any  property  ? 

Mr.  RoTTo.  No,  sir, 

Mr.  Martin.  No  automobile;  or  anything? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  have  an  automobile ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bono.  Do  you  have  your  income-tax  returns  for  the  years 
requested  ? 

Mr.  RoTi'o.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefai^ver.  We  will  take  care  of  what  records  you  have. 
Turn  them  over,  and  at  the  end  of  the  hearing  they  will  be  returned 
to  you. 

Mr.  Rotto.  Thank  you. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Catalog  carefully  what  he  gives  you. 

Mr.  Ro'iT'O.  Eleven  o'clock  tomorrow  morning? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Eleven  o'clock  in  the  morning. 

Mr.  Martin.  Louis  Shomer. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  Mr.  Shomer? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Yes, 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are 

Mr.  Rachstein.  Mr.  Rachstein. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  Mr.  Shomer's  attorney? 

Mr.  Rachstein,  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver,  What  is  your  first  name,  Mr,  Rachstein  ? 

Mr.  Rachstein.  Jacob ;  280  Broadway,  New  York. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  will  be  glad  to  work  out  Mr.  Shomer's 
appearance  at  a  time  that  is  convenient  with  you. 

Mr.  Rachstein.  I  was  going  to  trial  tomorrow,  but  if  we  are  going 
to  have  a  hearing  tomorrow,  any  time  will  do.  I  will  just  adjourn 
the  case.     Is  it  planned  to  liear  Mr.  Shomer  tomorrow? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Will  1 :  30  be  all  right? 

Mr,  Rachstein,  Yes;  Your  Honor, 

Chairman  Kefauver,  We  will  look  for  you  at  1 :  30, 

Mr,  Martin,  Has  Mr,  Shomer  produced  the  records? 

Mr,  Rachstein.  He  brought  his  checkbooks  and  stubs.  He  is  un- 
able to  produce  his  tax  returns  because  they  are  in  the  possession  of 


his  accountant.     He  was  served  last  night  at  9  p.  m.     He  has  had  no 
opportunity  before  coining  here  this  morning  to  see  his  accountant. 

5lr.  Martin.  Can  he  get  them? 

Mr.  Rachstein.  He  will  have  them  here  at  1 :  30. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  If  necessary,  bring  your  accountant  with 
you.     Turn  over  what  you  have  now. 

Mr.  Eachstein.  Thaiik  you. 

Mr.  Martin.  Roy  Aid. 

(No  response.) 

Mr.  Martin.  Irving  Klaw. 

Chairman  Ke'fauver.  You  are  Mr.  Klaw? 

Mr.  Klaw.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Irving  Klaw? 

Mr.  Klaw.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  Mr.  Gangel? 

Mr.  Gangel.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  is  your  address? 

Mr.  Gangel.  165  Broadway,  New  York  City. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  the  attorney  for  Mr.  Klaw? 

Mr.  Gangel.  I  am  liis  attorney,  but  his  regular  attorney  is  in  the 
hospital,  and  I  have  filed  a  written  motion  for  an  extension  of  the 
return  date  of  this  subpena.  Mr.  Joseph  E.  Brill  is  Mr.  Klaw's 
attorney.  He  is  confined  to  the  Betii  Israel  Hospital,  and  so  I  have 
asked  that  the  return  date  be  extended,  and  if  necessary  we  would 
appear  before  the  committee  in  another  city  if  the  date  were  extended, 
when  Mr.  Brill  is  available. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Have  j'ou  represented  Mr.  Klaw  in  other 
matters  ? 

Mr.  Gangp:l.  Our  firm  has.     Mr.  Brill  has  been  in  charge  of  it. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Brill  is  a  partner  in  your  firm? 

Mr.  Gangel.  That  is  correct. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  How  many  members  are  there  in  the  firm? 

INIr.  Gangel.  Two  members. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  the  finn  has  handled  Mr.  Klaw's  mat- 
ters ? 

Mr.  Gangel.  Yes;  but  exclusively  by  Mr.  Brill. 

Chairman  KEFAU^TR.  Mr.  Gangel,  I  think  we  will  get  along  all 
right.  AH  we  want  to  get  are  some  facts.  We  won't  get  into  any 
involved  legal  complications,  I  wouldn't  think.  We  would  like  to  get 
as  much  of  this  hearing  over  with  during  these  3  days  as  possible. 

Mr.  Gangel.  I  will  cooperate  as  much  as  ])()ssible,  but  I  am  not 
sure  there  w^on't  be  any  legal  problems,  and  that  is  the  reason  I 
wanted  the  client  to  have  the  benefit  of  Mr.  Brill's  advice  and  counsel, 
but  I  will,  of  course,  abide  by  the  chairman's  ruling. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  think  we  Avill  get  along  all  right. 

Mr.  Gangel.  Thank  you. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  When  would  it  be  convenient  for  Mr.  Klaw 
to  come?     Would  1  o'clock  Thursday  afternoon  be  convenient? 

Mr.  Gangel.  I  don't  have  my  diary  here,  but  we  will  be  here  what- 
ever time  the  committee  fixes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  One  o'clock  Thursday  afternoon. 

Mr.  Klaw,  were  you  requested  to  bring  any  records  or  books? 

Mr.  Klaw.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  have  them,  sir? 


Mr.  Klaw.  1  decline  to  make  tliein  available  under  the  fifth  amend- 
ment of  the  Constitution ;  that  they  may  tend  to  degrade  or  incriminate 
me;  and  under  the  fourth  amenchnent  of  the  Constitution,  that  the 
subpena  is  vaoue  and  illegal. 

Chairman  Kefauvek.  Well,  sii',  as  to  the  second  point,  vagueness 
and  illegality  of  the  subi)ena — the  subpena  should  be  copied  in  the 
record  at  this  point.     Let  it  be  exhibit  7. 

(The  subi^ena  was  marked  "Exhibit  7,"  and  is  as  follows:) 

Exhibit  No.  7 

United  States  of  America 

congress  of  the  united  states 

To  Irving  Klaw,  212  Eaat  IJfth  Street,  New  York  Citij,  Greet hig: 

Pursuant  to  lawful  authority,  you  are  hereby  commanded  to  appear  before  the 
Subcommittee  To  Investigate  .Juvenile  Delinquency  of  the  Senate  of  the  United 
States,  on  May  24,  1955,  at  10  o'clock  a.  m.,  at  their  committee  room  104,  United 
States  Court  House,  Foley  Square,  New  York,  N.  Y.,  then  and  there  to  testify 
what  you  may  know  relative  to  the  subject  matters  under  consideration  by  said 
committee,  and  bring'  with  you  copies  of  your  State  and  Federal  income-tax 
returns  for  the  years  19.j0  to  1954,  inclusive ;  records  of  your  business,  including 
bankbooks,  bank  statements,  checkbooks  and  check  stubs,  profit  and  loss  state- 
ments, statements  of  assets  and  liabilities,  and  all  documents  reflecting  your 
interest  in  property,  real,  personal,  or  mixed. 

Hereof  fail  not,  as  you  will  answer  your  default  under  the  pains  and  penalties 
in  such  cases  made  and  provided. 

To  United  States  Marshall,  southern  district  of  New  York  to  serve  and  return. 

Given  under  my  hand,  b.v  order  of  the  committee,  this  19th  day  of  May,  in 
tte  year  of  our  Lord  one  thousand  nine  hundred  and  fifty-five. 

EsTES  Kepatjver, 
Chninnan,  tiuhcommittee  To  Iiivestif/ate  Juvenile  Delinquency. 

Chairman  Kefattver.  As  to  the  second  point,  you,  of  course,  are 
entitled  to  rely  upon  the  fifth  amendment.  Do  you  wish  to  make 
any  statement  as  to  why  you  think  producing  any  books  or  records 
called  for  here,  might  tend  to  incriminate  you? 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  of  the 
Constitution;  that  an  anwer  to  that  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Mr.  Gangel.  According  to  your  suggestion,  we  don't  want  any 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Klaw  said  he  didn't  want  any  lights  or 

Mr.  Gangel.  There  is  just  one  aside  from  the  question  you  have 
just  addressed  to  this  witness.  If  you  would  fix  our  appearance 
for  Thursday  morning  instead  of  Thursday  afternoon,  I  would  very 
much  appreciate  it,  because  I  have  to  conduct  a  hearing  at  2  o'clock 
on  Thursday,  and  I  am  afraid  this  would  interfere.  If  it  could  be 
arranged,  I  would  appreciate  it. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Nine  o'clock  Thursday  morning. 

Mr.  Gangel.  All  right,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Klaw,  you  have  refused  to  comply  with 
the  subpena  and  bring  in  certain  books.  You  have  a  copy  of  the 
subpena,  do  you  not? 

Mr.  Gangel.  We  have  a  copy  of  the  subpena.  Mr.  Klaw  had  it 
and  turned  it  over  to  me. 

Chairman  Kefau\^r.  It  was  duly  served  on  Mr.  Klaw. 

Mr.  Klaw,  the  subcommittee  will  order  and  direct  you  to  bring 
the  books  and  records  specified  in  this  subpena  when  you  come  Thurs- 


day  morning.  You  will  remain  under  continuing  subpena  to  appear 
here  at  9  o'clock  Thursday  morning  with  the  books  and  records  de- 
scribed in  this  subpena.    Is  that  clear? 

Mr.  Gangel.  We  understand,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Thank  you,  sir. 

Mr.  Martin.  Aaron  Moses  Shapiro. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  Mr.  Shapiro  not  here  ? 

Mr.  BoBO.  Mr.  Shapiro  hasn't  made  an  appearance. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  us  ask  the  assistants  of  the  marshal  to 
locate  him. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  the  marshal  present  ? 

The  Marshal.  Mr.  Sliapiro  is  not  in  the  back  room. 

Mr.  Martin.  Martin  Goodman. 

Mr.  Frolich.  Mr.  Goodman's  coimsel  was  out  of  town.    I  believe 
he  got  in  touch  with  the  committee. 
^  Mr.  Martin.  Edward  Mishikin. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  Mr.  Mishikin^ 

Mr.  Mishikin.  That  is  correct. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  appear  for  Mr.  Mishikin? 

Mr.  Weiss.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  He  will  continue  under  subpena  and  come 
back  at  1 :  30  tomorrow. 

Mr.  Weiss.  Fine. 

Chairman  Kefau%'er.  Do  you  have  some  books  and  records? 

Mr.  Weiss.  He  has. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Have  you? 

Mr.  Martin.  Aren't  there  more  records  than  what  he  has  in  his 
hands  ? 

Mr.  Weiss.  Most  of  tliose  records  with  respect  to  income  tax  are 
now  in  the  possession  of  the  Internal  Revenue  Department.  He  is 
under  investigation  there. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Will  you  take  charge  and  catalog  the  records? 
They  will  be  returned  to  him. 

Have  him  look  again  and  see  if  he  finds  any  other  records. 

Mr.  Weiss.  All  the  records  he  has  in  his  possession  have  now  been 
turned  over. 

Mr.  Martin.  Do  we  have  the  documents  reflecting  his  interest  in 
pro])erty,  real,  personal,  and  mixed? 

Mv.  Weiss.  Yes. 

Mr.  Martin.  Do  we  have  a  statement  of  his  assets  and  liabilities? 

Mr.  Weiss.  All  of  those  records  are  with  the  Internal  Revenue  De 

Mr.  Martin.  All  of  them  ? 

Mr.  Weiss.  Yes ;  I  imagine  all  of  them. 

Mr.  Martin.  For  1954,  too? 

Mr.  Weiss.  They  are  either  in  the  possession  of  the  Internal  Rev 
enue  Department  or  his  tax  representatives  who  is  presently  negoti- 
ating with  the  Internal  Revenue  Department. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Your  client  must  have  cojiies  of  these  reports, 
or  must  be  al)le  to  get  in  toucli  with  his  tax  representative. 

Mr.  Weiss.  I  will  try  to  do  that  myself  if  it  is  possible. 

Mr.  Martin.  How  about  his  profit  and  loss  statement  ? 

Mr.  Weiss.  AJ]  of  those  are  in,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Martin.  His  bank  statements? 


Mr.  Weiss.  The  bank  books  have  been  turned  over.  There  are  no 
checking  accounts,  and  there  liaven't  been  any. 

Mr.  Martin.  Mr.  Weiss,  it  isn't  customary  for  the  Internal  Revenue 
Department  to  be  that  much  on  the  ball  that  they  will  be  investigating 
a  man's  1954  income  tax  in  1955. 

Mr.  Weiss.  It  is  more  or  less  of  a  continuation  of  an  original  investi- 
gation. I  think  there  has  been  an  extension  on  it  to  cover  other 
years.  Frankly,  I  am  not  too  familiar  with  that,  but  I  know  all  the 
records  he  has,  he  has  turned  over  either  to  the  Internal  Revenue 
Department  or  to  the  tax  consultant  who  is  handling  the  matter  with 
the  Internal  Revenue  Department. 

Mr.  Martin.  You  will  take  it  up  with  the  tax  consultant? 

Mr.  Weiss.  I  will  definitely  call  him.  Is  it  1 :  30  or  2  o'clock  to- 
morrow ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Yes.  If  you  will  advise  a  member  of  the 
staff  in  the  morning  as  to  what  the  tax  consultant  says — whether  you 
have  gotten  those  records  or  not,  that  will  be  all  right. 

Mr.  Weiss.  Yes;  of  course. 

Mr.  Martin.  Do  you  have  any  other  clients,  while  you  are  here? 

Mr.  Weiss.  I  have  one  who  is  ill,  and  I  have  turned  in  a  doctor's 
certificate  with  respect  to  him.     That  is  Louis  Finkelstein. 

Mr.  Martin.  Mr.  Finkelstein? 

Mr.  Weiss.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Martin.  The  day  the  marshal  made  service,  I  believe  Mr.  Fink- 
elstein was  at  the  doctor's  office  in  Brooklyn. 

Mr.  Weiss.  I  believe  the  marshal  spoke  to  the  doctor. 

Mr.  Martin.  Mr.  Finkelstein  was  able  to  drive  his  own  car  to 

Mr.  Weiss.  I  don't  know  that  to  be  the  fact,  nor  can  I  dispute  it. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  139  Winthrop  Road,  Teaneck,  N.  J.? 

Mr.  Weiss.  That  is  correct. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Will  you  contact  him  and  see  if  in  the  3  days 
we  are  here  it  won't  be  possible  for  him  to  come  in  ?  It  doesn't  indi- 
cate there  is  anything  seriously  wrong  with  him. 

Mr.  Weiss.  I  believe  he  did  have  one  stethoscopic  test  of  some  sort, 
and  I  iniderstood  he  was  either  going  into  the  hospital  today  or  the 
next  day  for  another  one.  I  don't  know.  That  is  the  information 
that  I  received. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Make  inquiry  and  let  our  staff  know. 

Let  the  doctor's  certificate  be  made  part  of  the  record. 

(The  doctor's  certificate  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  8,"  and  is  as 


Exhibit  No.  8 

Brooklyn,  N.  Y.,  May  21,  1955. 
Name :  Louis  Finkelstein.     Age  42. 
Address  :  379  Winthrop  Road,  Teaneck,  N.  J. 
To  Whom  It  May  Concern: 

This  is  to  certify  that  Louis  Finkelstein  is  ill  and  has  been  under  my  and 
Dr.  Harold  Berlowitz's   (urologist)   care  for  the  past  month.      He  is  suffering 
from  a  kidney  and  urinary  bladder  ailment,  and  is  in  need  of  additional  cysto- 
scopie,  urinary,  and  X-ray  observation,  tests,  and  treatment. 
Yours  truly, 

Samuel  L.  Mailman,  M.  D. 

Mr.  Martin.  Eugene  Mulletta. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  Mr.  Mulletta? 

65263—55 7 


Mr.  MuLLETTA.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  is  your  name? 

Mr.  Lazer.  Leon  D.  Lazar. 

Chairman  Kefaxtver.  You  are  attorney  for  Mr.  Mulletta? 

Mr.  Lazer.  That  is  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  is  your  address  ? 

Mr.  Lazer.  120-09  Liberty  Avenue,  Richmond  Hill,  N.  Y. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Your  phone  number  there? 

Mr.  Lazer.  Michigan  1-1515. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  When  is  Mr.  Mulletta  scheduled  to  appear.?" 
Would  10  o'clock  Thui^day  morning  be  satisfactory  ? 

Mr.  Lazer.    That  will  be  satisfactory. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Mulleta,  were  you  requested  to  bring  any 
books  and  records? 

Mr.  Mulletta.  I  have  them  in  the  car.  I  have  two  large  cartons. 
It  would  be  impossible  for  me  to  carry  them. 

Chairman  Kefau\t:r.  Mr.  Butler,  will  some  of  you  make  arrange- 
ments to  see  what  is  in  the  car. 

Mr.  Mulletta.  The  1954  accounts  receivable,  and  my  bills.  I  am 
under  charges  in  special  sessions  in  Long  Island  City  on  some  ac- 
counts. I  feel  that  they  would  tend  to  incriminate  me  if  they  were- 
shown  to  the  wrong  people. 

Chairman  Kiifauver.  Why  don't  you  separate  what  you  think  would 
tend  to  incriminate  you.     We  will  argue  about  that  later. 

Mr.  Lazer.  We  are  willing  to  give  you  all  the  records  up  to  1954. 
Since  my  client  is  under  indictment  under  a  charge  which  may  be 
in  some  way  related  to  the  purpose  of  the  investigation  here,  I  feel  the 
production  of  those  records  at  this  time  would  tend  to  incriminate 
him.     He  feels  that  way  himself. 

Chairman  Kefau\ter.  I  would  be  inclined  to  agree  with  you;  but 
you  bring  them  in. 

Mr.  Lazer.  We  will  bring  the  records.  They  are  downstairs  in 
his  car,  and  we  will  bring  them  right  up. 

The  proceeding  is  in  the  general  sessions  court.     It  is  a  State  cotirt. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Ordinarily  an  incrimination  matter  doesn't 
relate  from  a  State  jurisdiction  to  a  Federal  jurisdiction,  or  vice  versa.. 
Bring  them  all  in  and  let  us  talk  about  it  when  you  appear. 

Mr.  Lazer.  We  will  do  that,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Thank  you  very  much,  sir. 

Mr.  Martin.  John  Cassel. 

Chairman  Kefau^'er.  You  are  Mr.  Cassel? 

Mr.  Cassel.  Yes. 

Mr.  Martin.  Do  you  have  any  books  and  records  ? 

Mr.  Cassel.  Not  books,  just  the  records — income  tax. 

Mr.  Martin.  Bankbooks,  bank  statements  ? 

Mr.  Cassel.  Just  one  bankbook. 

Chairman  Kefauv'er.  You  were  told  to  bring  in  a  whole  lot  of 
other  things. 

Mr.  Cassel.  That  is  all  I  have. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  "\Yliere  do  you  keep  the  books  of  your  busi- 
ness ? 

Mr.  Cassel.  I  have  no  business.     I  work  as  a  shipping  clerk. 

Cliairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Butler,  will  you  catalog  what  Mr.  Cassel 
has  there? 



Mr.  Cassel,  can  you  come  back  at  10  o'clock  in  the  morning? 

Mr.  Cassel.  Could  I  cojne  on  Thursday,  please  ? 

Chairman  Ivefaltver.  Tomorrow  morning. 

Mr.  Cassel.  Thank  you,  sir. 

Mr.  Martin.  Roy  Aid. 

(No  response.) 

Mr.  Martin.  William  Landsman. 

Chairman  Kefau^-er.  You  are  Mr,  Landsman? 

Mr.  Landsman.  I  am. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Will  10  o'clock  in  the  morning  be  satisfactory 
to  you,  Mr.  Landsman  ? 

Mr.  Landsman.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefau\er.  Do  you  have  any  books  and  records? 

Mr.  Landsman.  I  am  not  in  the  capacity  of  having  books  and 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  don't  have  any  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Landsman.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  have  a  copy  of  your  income-tax  re- 
turns ? 

Mr.  Landsman.  No,  sir.     I  am  on  social  security. 

Chairman  Kefattv^r.  You  have  no  books  of  any  kind  ? 

Mr.  Landsman.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  KjiFAU^-ER.  No  checking  account? 

Mr.  Landsjuan.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  right,  we  will  see  you  in  the  morning  at 
10  o'clock. 

Mr.  ]\L\RTix.  Frank  Adler. 

Chairman  Kefauv^er.  Mr.  Adler  doesn't  seem  to  be  here. 

Call  the  next  witness,  Mr.  Bobo. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Eugene  O.  Cavanaugh. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Cavanaugh,  we  are  glad  to  have  you  with 


(Eugene  O.  Cavanaugh  was  sworn.) 

Chairman  Kefauver.  ]\Ir.  Bobo,  will  you  take  over. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Would  you  state  your  full  name. 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  Eugene  O.  Cavanaugh. 

Mr.  BoBo.  You  are  employed  on  the  youth  squad  of  the  board  of 
education  ? 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  The  chief  attendance  officer,  board  of  education, 
city  of  New  York. 

Mr.  BoBo.  ^Yliat  is  the  address  ? 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  110  Livingston  Street,  Brooklyn,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  Bobo.  How  long  have  you  worked  in  that  capacity  ? 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  As  chief  attendance  officer,  4  years;  in  the  attend- 
ance field.  27  years. 

Mr.  Bobo.  What  is  your  duty  in  the  attendance  field  and  in  the 
youtli  squad  of  the  board  of  education? 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  My  duties  are  to  supervise  the  attendance  staff, 
that  is,  including  the  supervisory  staff  and  the  attendance  officers  in 


the  field,  of  which  we  have  32;  42  supervisory  members,  and  340 
attendance  officers. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  State  those  figures  again. 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  We  have  42  supervisory  members  of  our  staff, 
and  340  attendance  officers.  I  personally  supervise  the  youth  squad 
that  goes  about  the  city  apprehending  children  on  the  streets  during 
school  hours. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Your  squad  has  no  police  powers  ? 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  They  have  police  powers.  They  may  arrest  truants 
on  the  streets  during  school  hours. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Wliat  have  you  found  to  be  the  major  activities  of 
truants  from  school? 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  The  major  activity  is  to  find  some  place  that  they 
can  be  entertained  during  school  hours  rather  than  attend  school. 
Moving  picture  houses  used  to  be  a  favorite  hangout  of  children  until 
the  moving  picture  theater  owners  cooperated  with  us,  and  we  have 
very  little  difficulty  on  that  score  now. 

Candy  stores  are  a  source '- 

Chairman  Kefau\t;r.  You  say  moving  picture  houses  used  to  be 
a  favorite  hangout,  but  the  moving  picture  theater  owners  have 
cooperated  with  you  and  it  is  no  longer  true  ? 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  It  is  no  longer  true. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  is  something  that  I  think  ought  to  be 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  come  in  contact  with  any  pornographic  ma- 
terial through  your  organization  or  through  your  own  personal  con- 
tacts ? 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  Well,  over  the  years  it  has  been  an  occasional 
problem.  We  have  had  pornographic  material  come  into  the  pos- 
session of  children.  It  hasn't  been  on  the  increase  of  late,  but  it 
still  is  with  us. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Has  there  been  any  increase  in  the  number  of  sex  offenses 
among  students  at  school? 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  Not  that  we  know  of ;  no. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Not  among  the  truants  with  whom  you  deal  ? 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  No. 

Mr.  BoBO.  I  believe  that  some  time  ago  you  submitted  a  report  dated 
April  12,  1955,  that  spoke  of  some  of  the  activities  that  the  youth 
squad  has  come  in  contact  with  in  New  York  City. 

Do  you  have  any  objection,  Mr.  Cavanaugh,  if  we  should  make  this 
part  of  the  record  of  the  hearings  of  this  subcommittee  ? 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  I  will  be  glad  to. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Are  there  any  special  sections 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  said  it  would  be  all  right? 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBo.  I  ask  it  to  be  appended  in  the  record. 

Chairman  Kefauv^er.  It  will  be  so  ordered. 

(The  information  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  9,"  and  is  on  file  with 
the  subcommittee.) 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  addition  to  speaking  of  truants,  and  so  forth,  I  notice 
in  this  report : 

We  know  that  this  condition  contributes  to  juvenile  delinquency.  Pupils  have 
informed  us  that  they  have  been  offered  alcoholic  beverages,  obscene  literature 
has  been  circulated,  and  youth  in  the  17  to  20  years  age  group  are  constantly 


soliciting  teen-age  girls  to  accompany  them  on  dates  and  automobile  rides  in 
most  of  these  premises. 

Would  you  say  that  is  an  increase  in  activity? 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  Yes ;  that  is  an  increased  activity.  Our  difficulty 
today  is  in  the  local  candy  store  where  the  17-year-olds  hang  out,  and 
invite  girls  in,  or  younger  children  into  the  store ;  and  they  are  known 
to  hang  out  there ;  and  it  is  an  attraction  to  these  teen-age  girls  to  go 
to  the  store  for  whatever  amusement  is  there.  It  may  be  for  just 
hanging  out  in  the  store.  It  may  be  to  look  at  these  pornographic 
pictures,  or  it  may  be  to  drink  beer,  or  whatever  it  may  be. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  any  street  peddlers  or  the  candy  stores  come  to 
your  attention  insofar  as  that  they  are  selling  or  peddling  porno- 
graphic literature? 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  No. 

Mr.  BoBo.  None  have  come  to  the  attention  of  your  department  at 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Would  you  say  that  pornographic  literature  has  had  any 
effect  upon  truancy  or  delinquency  among  the  schools  of  New  York? 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  There  is  no  doubt  in  my  mind  that  pornographic 
literature  does  have  an  effect  upon  the  child. 

As  Father  Egan  pointed  out,  some  children  are  able  to  throw  it  off. 
Some  children,  it  whets  the  appetite,  and  they  look  for  more.  It 
creates  a  problem.  There  is  no  doubt  that  it  adds  to  the  juvenile  de- 
linquency that  we  are  now  faced  with. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Senator  Langer,  do  you  have  any  questions? 

Senator  Langer.  No. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Cavanaugh,  we  thank  you  very  much 
for  coming.  We  wish  you  success  in  your  effort,  which  we  know  is  a 
very  difficult  one. 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  Thank  you,  sir. 

Senator  Langer.  How  many  boys  have  you  dealt  with  in  connec- 
tion with  your  work  ? 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  In  27  years  ? 

Senator  Langer,  Yes. 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  I  would  say  offhand  probably  there  came  into  my 
own  hands — that  I  had  personal  contact  with? 

Senator  Langer.  Yes. 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  I  would  say  about  50,000  children  that  I  had  per- 
sonal contact  with. 

Senator  Langer.  What  would  be  their  ages  ? 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  The  ages  run  from  7  to  17. 

Senator  Langer.  Thank  you  very  much. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  would  appreciate  hearing  from  you. 

Mr.  Cavanaugh.  We  would  be  glacl  to  write  to  you. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Our  next  witness. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Mr.  and  Mrs.  Eobert  Thoms. 

(Mr.  and  Mrs.  Robert  Thoms  were  sworn  by  the  chairman.) 

Cliairman  Kefau\t2R.  Mr.  Bobo,  will  you  take  over.  I  don't  know 
how  you  are  going  to  testify  together,  but  we  will  work  it  out  some 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  have  any  preference  as  to  which  one  will  testify 
first  ? 


Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  Mrs.  Thorns  tell  her  stoi'j'. 
Mr.  BoBO.  Mrs.  Thorns,  would  you  state  your  name  for  us. 


Mrs.  Tho^is.  Mrs.  Helen  C.  Thorns. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Your  address  where  you  live  now  ? 

Mrs.  TiiOMS.  Seventy-three  Barrows  Avenue,  Rutherford,  N.  J. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Are  you  a  parent? 

Mr.  TiiOMs.  Yes. 

Mr.  BoBo.  How  many  children  do  you  have? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Five. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Five  children? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Yes. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Mi-s.  Thoms,  I  believe  you  formerly  lived  in  Fairlawn, 
N.  J.,  and  you  had  an  experience  with  pornographic  literature? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Yes. 

Mr.  BoBO.  And  it  involved  your  children  ? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Yes. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Will  you  tell  us  about  that? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Last  May  my  sons  came  in 

Chairman  KErAu^T:R.  Last  May — 1954? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Yes.  My  sons  came  in  at  dinner  time,  and  they  were 
taking  their  baths,  and  I  was  taking  the  laundry  down ;  and  as  usual 
I  was  emptying  the  pockets  of  the  dungarees,  and  I  came  across 

Chairman  Kefauaer.  How  many  sons  are  they? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Just  one  pair  of  dungarees  had  the  books  in  them. 
He  was  13  years  old — my  son  Vincent. 

Chairman  Kefau^'er.  Go  on  and  tell  us  all  about  it  in  your  own 

Mrs.  Tho:ms.  At  first  I  ])icked  the  two  books  out  of  his  pocket  and 
I  thought  they  were  just  children's  book,  and  I  didn't  know  whether 
to  throw  it  away  or  not.     I  looked  inside  of  it,  and  I  was  so  surprised. 

"V^-lien  I  asked  him  where  he  got  them  he  said  some  boy  had  given  it 
to  him,  and  he  was  going  to  tlirow  them  away. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  say  that  you  were  surprised.  They  weren't  the  type 
of  books  you  thought  they  were — children's  books?  They  were  the 
pornographic  type  of  books  showing  nude  and  obscene  pictures? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  No;  I  never  had  experience  with  anything  near  like  it. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  kind  of  books  are  we  talking  about  now  ? 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  this  the  type  of  book  you  are  talking  al)out  which  was 
in  the  hand  of  your  child? 

Mrs.  Thoms,  Yes. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Entitled  "Jiggs"? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Yes. 

Mr.  BoBO.  And  "Ella  Cinders"  ? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefau\t.r.  Let  us  make  it  clear  that  some  of  these  ]">or- 
nographers  haveplagiarized  the  names  of  very  fine  comic  strips,  like 
Maggie  and  Jiggs,  and  Ella  Cinders.  That  was  a  despicable  tliinj 
to  do. 

Go  ahead,  Mr.  Bobo. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  found  these  in  the  pocket  of  your  13-year-old  son  ? 


Mrs.  Thoms.  Yes.  I  asked  him  why  didn't  he  show  them  to  me. 
He  said  he  had  just  got  them.  It  was  at  5  o'clock.  He  came  in  the 
house.  It  was  a  few  minutes  before  5  when  he  said  he  got  them.  I 
said,  "From  who?" 

He  said,  "A  certain  boy." 

I  went  to  the  certain  boy's  house.  He  said  he  found  them  on  the 
school  grounds.     I  took  him  to  the  police  department  and  left  one  copy. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  the  boy  who  had  given  them  to  your  son  go  to  the 
same  school,  and  did  he  lind  them  at  the  school  ground  in  Fairlawn? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  No.  He  said  he  found  them  on  the  school  grounds 
across  the  street  from  my  house,  but  that  is  not  where  they  came  from. 
They  were  being  sold  in  the  schoolyard  of  a  school  a  mile  away  from  us. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Will  you  tell  us  how  your  son  came  into  contact  with  these 
books.     Where  did  he  get  them  ? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Would  you  ask  me  the  questions  more  directly? 

Mr.  BoBO.  Where  did  you  say  your  son  got  these  books  ? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  He  said  that  this  boy  gave  them  to  him. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  make  a  further  investigation  to  determine  where 
the  boy  who  gave  them  to  your  son  got  them  ? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Well,  he  denied  it.  He  said  he  just  found  them  on  the 
school  ground,  but  later  that  evening  my  10-year-old  boy — I  have  3 
boys — the  youngest  boy  said,  "They  sell  those  in  the  schoolyard." 

Mr.  BoBO.  Was  he  talking  about  the  school  where  he  went  to  school  ? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Yes. 

Mr.  BoBO.  And  then  did  you  make  a  further  investigation  to  deter- 
mine if  they  were  being  sold  in  the  schoolyard  where  your  son  vras  at 
school  ? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  ^  es. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  find  that  they  were? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Yes. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  find  out  the  number  of  boys  that  were  selling 
them  in  that  particular  school? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Well,  I  knew  of  two  definitely  that  were  selling  them. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  go  to  the  school  authorities  and  ask  them  to 
help  you  with  the  investigation  ? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Yes. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Were  they  cooperative  ? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  They  were  expelled  boys.  They  have  over  1,500  chil- 
dren. They  said  they  would  expel  them  immediately  rather  than 
keep  them  there  and  make  any  question  about  it. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  they  give  you  any  idea  as  to  the  extent  of  the  traffic 
in  this  particular  school  of  these  types  of  books? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Yes.  The  teacher  said  they  had  confiscated  a  few 
in  the  fifth,  sixth,  and  seventh  grades — a  couple  of  boys  once  in  a 
while  would  be  caught  with  them,  and  the  teachers  would  take  them 
away  from  them. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  make  a  report  to  the  police  department  about 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Yes. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  receive  the  cooperation  of  the  police  department 
in  tracking  down  where  the  books  had  come  from  ? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Well,  I  don't  know  whether  you  would  call  it  co- 
operation or  not.     You  will  have  to  ask  me  more  specifically.     I  was 


told  not  to  do  anything  further  about  it.  I  was  told  to  forget  about 
it  and  not  to  talk  about  it,  and  let  them  take  care  of  it. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Who  told  you  that? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Police  Captain  Reisacker  and  Mr.  LaGrossa,  in  charge 
of  the  juvenile  police.  They  said  they  will  take  care  of  it  and  for 
me  to  be  quiet  and  not  do  any  more  about  it. 

Mr.  Bono.  Did  they  give  you  any  reason  for  you  being  quiet? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Yes.  They  said,  ''You  will  only  muff  things.  You 
will  do  things  wrong.     I^et  us  handle  it,  and  you  be  quiet  about  it." 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  go  back  to  see  them  later  to  determine  what 
investigation  has  been  made  ? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  Well,  Mr.  LaGrossa  had  come  to  my  house,  and  he 
said,  "This  is  hopeless,  because  you  are  going  to  have  to  show  us 
evidence  where  a  boy  goes  in  a  store  and  buys  these  books,  and  we 
will  have  to  see  them." 

I  got  one  of  the  boys  who  sells  these  books 

Mr.  BoBO.  How  old  a  boy  was  this  that  was  selling  them  ? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  He  was  13.  He  said,  "I  will  go  in  and  buy  them ;" 
and  on  the  way  down  he  said,  "Yes;  I  handle  the  post  cards,  and  I 
have  handled  about  50  of  these  books.  I  buy  them  from  this  store- 
keeper and  sell  them  on  the  school  grounds  at  a  profit." 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  he  tell  you  how  much  he  bought  them  for,  and  how 
much  he  sold  them  for  ? 

Mrs.  Thoms.  He  said  he  bought  them  for  20  cents,  -and  sold  them 
for  a  quarter  up  to  40  cents — whatever  he  could  get  from  the  kids. 

I  then  called  Mr.  LaGrossa  and  told  him,  "This  afternoon  at  3 
o'clock  this  boy  is  going  to  buy  this  book." 

Mr,  BoBO.  Mr.  LaGrossa  of  the  police  department? 

Mrs.  Thoms,  Yes.  I  said,  "This  boy  is  going  to  buy  the  books.  You 
be  there  to  witness  it." 

When  I  got  there  he  was  right  there  in  front  of  the  store,  I  noticed 
later  there  were  police  cars  parked  on  the  block;  and  the  boy  im- 
mediately got  nervous  and  said  that  this  man  in  the  store  was  his 
friend.     He  said,  "I  am  not  going  to  get  him  in  trouble." 

He  immediately  backed  out.  I  said  to  Mr.  LaGrossa  that  he  told 
me  he  got  them  from  that  man. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  what  the  man's  name  and  the  store  was, 
and  the  store  name? 

Mrs.  Tho3is.  No;  just  the  name  of  their  store  is  Jean  and  Al. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Where  is  that  located  ? 

Mrs,  Thoms.  On  Broadway  in  Fairlawn.  It  is  right  next  to  a 
bicycle  store  that  all  the  boys  patronize.  The  man  that  owns  the  store 
IS  very  friendly,  and  his  wife  is  there.  I  usually  drive  over.  It  was 
a  nice  store ;  but  right  next  door  was  the  candy  store  where  on  a  hot 
day  they  would  go  in  for  a  coke.  My  son  went  in  for  a  coke  this 
day,  and  the  owner  said,  "Would  you  like  to  buy  some  funny  books," 
so  they  said,  "Sure," 

The  man  gave  them  these  tAvo  books.  Pie  said  he  destroyed  them 
immediately  when  he  saw  what  was  in  them,  but  that  proved  where 
they  came  from ;  and  they  said  they  know  the  boys  woiild  go  in  there 
and  buy  these  books  and  sell  them  on  the  school  grounds. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  question  the  man  as  to  whether  or  not  he  sold 
the  books  ? 


Mrs.  Thoms.  That  da^-  Mr.  LaGrossa  called  the  owner  outside  and 
said,  "Did  you  sell  this  boy  obscene  books  f  and  he  said,  "Of  course 

He  said  to  the  boy,  "Did  this  man  give  vou  the  books'';  and  he 
said,  "No." 

He  said,  "You  go  back  in  the  store." 

As  soon  as  he  went  in  the  store  the  boy  said,  "Of  course  he  did; 
I  have  50  of  them,  and  post  cards  too,  but  I  don't  want  to  get  them 
in  trouble."     He  said  that  to  Mr.  LaGrossa. 

I  said,  "Isn't  that  enougli  evidence?"  Ilis  mother  Avas  there  wit- 
nessing it,  too.     I  said,  "Why  should  this  boy  lie?" 

Mr.  BoBo.  Mr.  Thoms,  did  you  go  down  and  question  tliis  man 
at  any  time  ? 

Mr.  Thoms.  Yes, 

Mr.  BoBo.  Did  he  admit  to  you  he  was  selling  them  ? 
Mr.  Thoms.  No. 

Mr.  BoBO.  He  never  admitted  it? 
Mr.  Thoms.  No. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  never  knew  except  what  the  students  told  you  ? 
Mr.  Tiioms.  He  merely  told  me  when  he  took  the  business  over  that 
the  books  Avere  in  the  store,  and  upon  seeing  them  he  destroyed  them ; 
a]id  he  claimed  they  were  in  a  cigarbox  under  the  counter;  and,  of 
course,  the  boys'  remarks  were  it  was  a  cigarbox  when  they  were  pur- 
chased by  the  children  in  town  even  after  he  took  the  store  over. 
Chairman  Kefauvek.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  and  Mrs.  Tlioms. 
Mr,  Martin,  Mr.  Ben  Himmell. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Himmell,  do  you  object  to  these  lights? 
Mr.  Himmell,  Yes ;  I  do. 

Chairman  Kefau^^er,  You  have  been  subpenaed  to  ap[)ear  here. 
Will  you  be  here  in  the  morning  at  10  o'clock  ? 
Mr.  Himmell.  What  is  this  about? 

Mr.  BoBO.  We  asked  you  to  bring  in  your  books  and  records  as  to 
your  business  dealings  and  the  type  of  work  which  you  are  doing. 
Mr.  Himmell.  In  other  words,  you  want  my  business  books  ? 
Mr.  BoBO.  Yes,  sir ;  according  to  the  directions  that  were  given  on 
the  subpena. 

Mr.  Hi3imell,  I  received  that  subpena  at  8  o'clock  this  morning. 
Mr.  BoBO.  Could  you  have  those  books  and  records  here  by  10  o'clock 
in  the  morning  ? 

Mr.  Himmell,  I  will  call  my  accountant  and  tind  out. 
Chairman  Kefauver.  You  do  the  best  you  can  to  get  them  here  by 
10  o'clock  in  the  morning. 

I  regret  we  cannot  carry  on  this  afternoon,  but  Senator  Langer  and 
1  have  to  go  back  for  a  vote  this  afternoon,  so  we  will  stand  in  recess 
at  this  time  until  9  o'clock  in  the  morning. 

Any  witnesses  under  subpena  who  haven't  been  told  a  special  time 
to  come  back  will  report  in  the  morning,  and  we  will  hear  them  then. 
(Whereupon,  at  12 :  80  p.  m.,  Mav  24,  1955,  the  sulx-onnnittee  re- 
cessed until  9  a.  m..  May  25, 1955.) 

(Obscene  and  Pornographic  Materials) 

THURSDAY,  MAY  26,   1955 

United  States  S'jinate 

Subcommittee  of  the  Committee  on  the  Judiciary, 


New  York,  N,  Y. 

The  subcommittee  met,  pursuant  to  notice,  at  9  a.  m.,  in  room  1705, 
United^States  Courthouse,  Foley  Square,  New  York,  N.  Y.,  Senator 
Estes  Kefauver,  chairman,  presiding. 

Present :  Senator  Estes  Kefauver. 

Also  prasent :  James  H.  Bobo,  chief  counsel ;  Peter  N.  Chumbris, 
associate  counsel;  Vincent  Gaughan,  sjoecial  counsel;  Edward  Lee 
McLean,  editorial  director;  George  Butler  and  George  Martin,  con- 
sultants to  the  subcommittee. 

Chairman  Kefau\-er.  The  subcommittee  will  come  to  order. 

I  regret  exceedingly  the  situation  we  were  confronted  with  yester- 
day in  not  being  able  to  continue  our  hearing;  but  we  had  a  very 
important  piece  of  legislation  in  the  Senate  which  I  thought  would 
be  voted  on  Friday  of  this  week,  but  it  was  decided  to  vote  on  it 

I  am  Sony  we  inconvenienced  some  witnesses. 

We  hope  that  Senator  Langer  will  be  with  us  later  today,  but  we 
will  have  to  carry  on.  I  dislike  very  much  having  a  one-Senator 
hearing,  but,  under  tlie  circumstances,  we  will  have  to  proceed  as  best 
we  can. 

Again  I  want  the  witnesses  and  the  public,  or  anyone,  to  know,  if 
anyone's  name  is  used  adversely,  and  they  want  to  make  any  explana- 
tion, they  are  invited  to  appear  immediately,  and  the  subcommittee 
will  give  them  a  cliance  to  testify  and  make  any  explanation. 

Before  hearing  our  first  witness  today,  I  want  to  take  this  oppor- 
tunity to  comment  on  our  hearings  thus  for,  and  to  say  what  it  is  that 
we  hope  to  achieve  as  a  result  of  these  hearings. 

In  my  view  a  congressional  committee,  given  a  specific  problem,  has 
as  its  first  and  primary  responsibility  the  production  of  legislation 
designed  to  remedy  the  situation  which  produces  the  problem.  That 
is  the  purpose  of  the  Juvenile  Delinquency  Subcommittee  under  my 

However,  we  cannot  legislate  intelligently  in  a  vacuum.  We  must 
know  the  facts.  We  find  these  facts  by  investigation  and  in  public 
hearings  such  as  this  one.  At  the  same  time,  because  these  hearings 
are  open  to  coverage  by  all  the  media,  we  inform  the  public  of  the 



conditions  we  have  discovered;  and  in  my  view  no  problem  is  ever 
solved  witliont  public  awareness  and  interest. 

In  our  hearings  here  Tuesday  we  established  the  relationship  be- 
tween pornography  and  juvenile  delinquency.  We  did  this  through 
the  expert  testimony  of  Dr.  Benjamin  Karf)man,  the  famous  criminol- 
ogist and  psychiatrist  of  St.  Elizabeths  Hospital  in  Washington ;  by 
the  testimony  of  the  Rev.  Daniel  Egan,  who  has  done  so  much  work 
with  youth  for  the  Catholic  Church ;  Mr.  William  Deerson,  director 
of  discipline  at  Haaren  High  School,  New  York ;  and  Mr.  Eugene  O. 
Cavanaugh,  head  of  the  youth  squad  of  the  New  York  Board  of 

We  ei^tablished  the  nationwide  aspects  of  pornography  through  the 
testimony  of  INIr.  Peter  N.  Chumbris,  associate  counsel  of  this  subcom- 
mittee, and  I  am  informed  by  counsel  that  we  shall  further  show  the 
nationwide  aspects  in  testimony  of  police  and  public  officials  of  differ- 
ent cities  today.  This  interstate  aspect  will  also  be  shown  by  documen- 
tary exhibits  which  will  be  offered  in  evidence. 

During  the  course  of  today's  hearings  we  hope  to  learn  through  the 
testimony  of  subpenaed  witnesses  of  certain  information  concerning 
the  production  and  distribution  of  this  material  which  we  do  not  now 

I  want  to  reemphasize  that  the  material  we  are  talking  about  is  not 
the  art  magazines,  so-called — not  the  various  girlie  and  gossip  publi- 
cations, which  certainly  border  on  the  pornographic — but  the  undeni- 
ably lewd,  lascivious,  sadistic,  and  perverted  publications;  the  kind 
which  Dr.  Karpman  testified  might  very  well  upset  the  delicate  sex 
balance  of  a  juvenile  in  formative  years,  and  which  Father  Egan  tes- 
tified could  not  help  but  affect  any  juvenile  ''who  has  blood  in  his 

This  material,  I  am  informed  by  counsel,  goes  into  all  -18  States. 

I  am  convinced  at  this  stage  of  the  hearings  that  certain  Federal 
legislation  is  needed.  Our  committee  as  a  result  of  our  preliminary 
investigations  into  these  problems  recommended  and  the  Senate  at 
its  present  session  has  adopted  Senate  bills  599  and  600. 

These  bills  make  it  illegal  to  transport  obscene  literature  across  State 
lines  in  private  conveyances.  It  is  already  illegal  to  transmit  such 
literature  through  the  mails.  I  intend  to  take  the  information  gathered 
at  these  hearings  and  go  before  the  House  Judiciary  Committee,  where 
these  bills  are  now  pending.  I  hope  with  this  additional  information 
to  be  able  to  convince  the  House  of  the  desirability  of  this  legislation. 

Several  other  proposals  for  legislation  have  occurred  to  me  during 
these  hearings,  and  we  will  develop  further. 

They  are,  to  make  it  illegal  to  ship  in  interstate  commerce  any 
publications  which  do  not  include  the  name  and  address  of  the  pub- 
lisher, or,  in  the  case  of  those  published  outside  of  the  United  States, 
the  name  and  address  of  the  distributor  in  this  country. 

The  spelling  out  in  legislation  of  a  clearer  and  more  definite  defini- 
tion of  pornographic  literature,  which  would  include  the  various  forms 
of  perversion. 

To  strengthen  Post  Office  regulations,  permitting  the  impounding 
of  obscene  literature. 

Increasing  the  penalties  for  publishing  or  peddling  pornographic 


Strengtheuino-  tlie  customs  laws  which  Ave  will  have  a  good  deal 
of  testinionv  about  duriug  this  hearing. 

IJefore  we  start  I  have  been  advised  by  counsel  that  Father  Egan 
wished  one  point  of  his  testimony  corrected.  I  think  his  testimony 
indicated  that  certain  publications  he  had  brought  to  me  in  my  oflice 
at  Washington  had  been  purchased  in  Washington.  I  am  advised 
that  Father  Egan  says  they  were  purchased  elsewhere  and  brought  to 
my  oflice  in  Washington.    I  am  glad  to  make  that  correction. 

Mv.  Bobo,  are  there  any  preliminary  matters  before  we  get  started? 

Mv.  Bono.  I  would  like  to  call  the  names  of  the  witnesses  who  will 
appear  today.  Inspector  Roy  Blick;  Commissioner  Lawrence  A. 
Whipple;  Sgt.  Alfred  Jago;  Detective  John  Higgins;  Al  Stone,  alias 
Abraham  Rubinstein,  Al  Rubin,  Abraham  Rubin,  Rubin  Stone,  and 
Stony  Rubin  White;  Sgt.  Josei)h  Brown;  Lt.  Ignatius  Sheehan; 
Edward  Mishkin;  Arthur  H.  Sobel ;  Abe  Rotto;  Lou  Sliomer;  Wil- 
liam Landsman ;  and  George  Fodor.  If  there  are  any  witnesses  under 
subpena  at  present,  I  wish  you  would  make  yourselves  known  at 
this  time. 

Chairman  Kefauvek.  Any  witnesses  from  out  of  the  city,  [  think 
we  ought  to  try  to  have  them  today,  because  we  have  held  them  here 
for  se\eral  days.    Are  there  any  others  from  out  of  the  city? 

Mr.  Gangel.   What  about  Mr.  Klaw^  ? 

Mr.  BoBO.  Due  to  the  fact  that  we  didn't  have  a  hearing  yesterday, 
we  have  scheduled  Mr.  Klaw  to  appear  on  Tuesday,  so  you  will  be 
excused  today. 

^Ir.  Gangel.  To  return  Tuesday  ? 

Mr.  Boi50.   Tuesday  at  9 :  30. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  us  say  10. 

Mr.  Gangel.  I  would  prefer  10,  if  the  committee  would  permit  that. 

Chairman  Kefauver.   10  o'clock.    Is  that  convenient  with  you  ? 

Mr.  Gangel.  Yes.    That  would  be  June  1, 1  take  it  ?      • 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  day  after  Memorial  Day. 

Mr.  Bono.   Inspector  Roy  Blick. 


(Roy  Blick  was  duly  sworn.) 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Our  first  witness  is  Mr.  Roy  E.  Blick,  Inspec- 
tor in  (;harge,  Morals  Division,  Metropolitan  Police  Force,  Wash- 
ington, D.  C. 

1  have  known  Mr.  Blick  a  number  of  years.  I  think  he  is  capable, 
hard-working,  effective  police  officer.  We  appreciate  the  cooperation 
you  have  given  our  subcommittee,  Mr.  Blick.  We  are  glad  to  have 
you  here  with  us. 

Mr.  Bobo,  will  you  proceed. 

Mr.  Bono.  Mr.  Blick,  you  are  an  inspector  of  the  Washington  Metro- 
politan Police  Department? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  am. 

Mr.  Boiio.  You  are  the  head  of  what  is  known  as  the  morals  squad  « 

Mr.  Blick.  I  am. 

Mr.  Bono.  The  vice  squad  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  am. 


Mr.  BoBO.  How  many  years  have  you  been  employed  with  the  Wash- 
ington Police  Department? 

Mr.  Blick.  24  years. 

Mr.  BoBO.  And  of  that  number  of  years,  how  many  years  have  you 
been  connected  with  the  vice  squad  ? 

Mr.  Bligk.  All  except  3  weeks. 

Mr.  BoBO.  For  how  long  have  you  been  head  of  the  vice  s([uad  in 
Washington  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  would  say  around  18  years,  19  years. 

Mr.  Bob'o.  Coming  within  the  jurisdiction  of  the  vice  squad  on  the 
Police  Department,  is  pornographic  material  within  the  jurisdiction 
of  your  squad  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  It  is. 

Mr.  BoBO.  When  I  speak  of  pornographic  material,  would  you  de- 
scribe what  pornogTaphic  material  comes  within  the  jurisdiction  of 
your  squad? 

Mr.  Blick.  Filth. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Made  up  of  books,  pamphlets,  film,  phonograph  records? 

Mr.  Blick.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Lewd  and  perverted  character? 

Mr.  Blick.  Obscene,  indecent,  and  lascivious. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  have  any  record  of  the  number  of  arrests  which 
you  have  made  within  the  last  2  yeare  of  persons  dealing,  producing, 
or  distributing  pornographic  material? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  have. 

Mr.  BoBo.  What  is  tlie  number  of  persons  that  have  been  arrested  in 
Washington  during  the  last  2  years  for  dealing  in  this  type  of  ma- 
terial ? 

Mr.  Blick.  Approximately  34,  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Are  all  of  those  persons  adults  ? 

INIr.  BliciJ.  All  except  2  or  3. 

Mr.  BoBO.  "Wliat  was  the  age  of  the  2  or  3  that  were  not  adults? 

Mr.  Blick.  One  was  17,  and  the  other  one  was  15  or  16,  if  I  recall 

Mr.  BoBO.  Among  those  selling  pornographic  material,  adults  and 
juveniles  alike,  have  you  had  any  occasion  to  notice  whether  or  not 
pornographic  material  was  sold  or  distributed  to  those  of  juvenile  age? 

Mr.  Blick.  Mr.  Bobo,  we  have  received  complaints  on  juveniles  re- 
ceiving this  pornographic  material,  and  we  go  out  to  make  an  in- 
vestigation. We  find  out  that  it  is  true  that  at  times  these  kids  do 
have,  or  that  juveniles  do  have  in  their  possession  photographic  ma- 
terial that  is  classified  obscene  and  indecent. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Do  you  have  any  record  of  where  specifically  porno- 
graphic material  has  been  sold  to  juveniles,  either  sold  or  exhibited  to 

Mr.  Blick.  Only  by  hearsay.  This  material  is  sold  from  under- 
the-counter.  I  could  not  under  oath  say  that  it  was  actually  sold 
to  the  juveniles.  We  have  found  it  in  their  possession.  We  have 
raided  places  within  the  bounds  of  the  school  area,  and  have  found 
with  a  search  warrant  material  that  was  obscene  and  indecent. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Inspector,  did  your  squad  or  did  a  member  of  the  Wash- 
ington Police  Department — did  he  or  did  he  not  pick  up  a  deck  of 
62  supposed  playing  cards  showing  52  various  forms  of  perversion 
irom  a  youngster  of  the  age  of  13  ? 


Mr.  Blick.  We  did. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  receive  any  explanation  from  this  youngster  as 
to  where  he  received  this  deck  of  cards? 

Mr.  Blick.  If  I  recall  correctly,  that  he  bought  them  from  some 
other  person,  but  he  did  not  know  who  it  was  from. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Are  you  familiar  with  this  particular  type  of  por- 
nography— a  deck  of  playing  cards  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  am. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  find  that  this  particular  type  of  pornography  is 
widespread  in  distribution? 

Mr.  Blick.  It  is. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  the  selling  price  of  a  deck  of  these  por- 
nographic playing  cards  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  The  cheapest  set  you  can  buy  them  for,  the  black  and 
whites,  are  $5.  They  run  from  $5  to  $8  a  pack.  The  colored  ones  run 
from  $8  to  $12  a  pack. 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  your  experience  in  Washington  with  the  morals  squad 
or  vice  squad,  have  you  had  occasion  to  run  across  pornographic  movie 

Mr.  Blick.  I  have. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  ever  known  of  any  case  of  pornographic  movie 
film  seing  sold  or  exhibited  to  minors  and  teenagers  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  have. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  your  squad  conduct  a  raid  in  the  city  of  Washington, 
D.  C,  at  the  Don  Pallini  Dance  Studio? 

Mr.  Blick.  They  did. 

Mr.  BoBO.  On  what  date  was  this  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  March  18,  1953. 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  conducting  this  raid  what  were  the  number  of  teen- 
■agere  and  minors  who  were  present  at  the  Don  Pallini  Dance  Studio  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  197. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Ranging  in  age  from  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  Eleven  years  up. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  confiscate  a  film  from  this  particular  studio? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  did. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  was  the  length  of  the  roll  of  film  which  you  con- 
fiscated, Inspector  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  Approximately  1,800  feet. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  detennine  what  the  price  to  view  this  film  for 
:these  adolescents  and  teen-agers  was  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  The  tickets  were  being  sold  for  $5  per  person. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  confiscate  any  of  these  tickets? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  did. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  have  any  of  them  with  you  at  the  present  time? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  do  not.    I  believe  that  I  have  a  copy. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Here  is  one.    It  says : 

Colossal  good  time  tonight.  Admit  one.  Entertainment,  buffet  style,  movies, 

We  will  file  this  for  the  subcommittee. 

(The  ticket  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  10,''  and  is  on  file  with  the 

Mr.  BoBO.  AVliat  was  the  nature  of  the  1,800  feet  of  film  which 
was  to  be  shown  this  evening? 


Mr.  Blick.  The  lirst  150  or  200  feet  of  film  was  just  a  hula  dancer, 
which  is  a  great  trait  for  these  promoters,  in  case  that  someone  should 
walk  into  these  places  before  the  film  gets  started,  and  they  would 
Avalk  out  and  say  they  are  just  having  a  good  time. 

The  rest  of  the  film  was  the  filthiest  that  I  have  ever  seen  in  my 

I  had  Dr.  Corning  of  the  public  schools,  by  permission  of  Mr. 
Rover,  who  is  a  United  States  district  attorney,  to  invite  ministers 
from  the  diii'erent  churches,  and  the  PTx\  and  civic  organizations 
to  come  down,  and  newspapermen,  to  view  the  pictures.  There  were 
quite  a  few  of  them  who  before  the  picture  Avas  completed  were  sick 
from  the  filth  that  was  in  the  })icture. 

Mr.  Bono.  Do  you  have  the  names  of  the  people  who  were  showing 
this  film,  or  exhibiting  it  ^ 

Mr.  Blick.  I  do. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  make  an  arrest  of  these  people  at  that  time? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  did. 

Mr.  BoiiO.  What  were  the  names  of  these  people.  Inspector? 

Mr.  Blick.  Phil  Stone  and  Fred  Sanders. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Where  do  they  live? 

Mr.  Blick.  They  live  in  Washington;  one  just  outside  of  Wash- 

Mr.  BoBo.  Do  you  know  the  city  outside  of  Washington  where  he 

Mr.  Blick.  In  Prince  Georges  County. 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  Maryland. 

Mr.  Blick.  Yes. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Was  it  College  Park,  Md.  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauater.  l*ut  in  the  record  the  address  of  each  of  those 
men  so  it  will  be  part  of  the  record. 

(The  addresses  appear  on  p.  107.) 

Mr.  BoBo.  Did  you  determine  from  these  persons,  Phil  Stone  and 
Fred  Sanders,  where  they  obtained  this  film. 

Mr.  Blick,  I  tided  to,  but  there  was  very  little  information  from 
these  people  at  first.  Nobody  knew  the  ownership  of  the  film ;  no  one 
kneAv  anything  about  it. 

When  we  came  in  Ave  came  in  a  little  too  early,  and  I  A\as  thankful 
that  Ave  did;  that  Ave  prevented  these  kids  from  seeing  such  pictures. 

They  had  cut  off  the  lights,  and  Ave  gave  them  about  10  minutes  and 
Ave  crashed  the  door  and  Avent  up,  and  only  the  screen  was  up. 

One  of  my  men  caught  one  of  the  men  going  across  the  roof  of  the 
rear  Avith  the  film,  and  he  chased  him  back  into  the  place. 

We  questioned  tlie  older  men  that  Avere  up  there,  and  they  Avere 
the  paters  of  the  fraternity. 

Chairman  Kefai"S'er.  What  does  that  mean? 

Mr.  Blick.  A  pater  tliat  is  supervising  the  children.  When  I  seized 
the  machine,  and  tlie  man  kncAv  he  Avas  going  to  lose  the  machine,  he 
then  admitted  that  he  Avas  the  one  that  Avas  going  to  put  the  sIioav  on. 
That  Avas  Philip  Stone. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  mean  by  that  "sponsor  of  the  film"  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  No;  the  pater,  as  far  as  I  can  learn,  is  the  overseer  of 
the  organization  that  these  kids  belonged  to. 

Mr.  BoBO.  This  Avas  a  high-school  fraternity  ? 


Mr.  Blick.  Yes,  sir.    There  were  tliree  schools  involved. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Three  high-school  fraternities  all  belonging  to  the  overall 
same  group,  except  the  chaj^ters  of  them? 

Mr.  Blick.  That  is  right.  The  following  day  we  got  a  warrant  for 
Fred  Sanders  and  Philip  Stone.  They  liad  a  liearing  in  the  district 
attorney's  office,  and  Fred  Sanders  stated  that  Antonelli,  who  was 
the  father  of  one  of  the  boys,  had  come  to  him  to  see  whether  he 
could  get  some  pictures  to  show^  to  the  boys. 

Sanders  stated  that  he  worked  with  Phil  Stone,  wlio  had  a  motion 
picture  machine,  and  that  he  made  arrangements  Avith  Stone  to  show 
tlie  pictures. 

Stone  admitted  to  it  and  }:)lead  guilty  to  the  charge  of  possession 
and  exhibiting  obscene  and  indecent  pictures. 

Mr.  Bono.  Phil  Stone  lives  at  4:')U  Kowalt  Drive,  College  Park,  Md? 

Mr.  Blick.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  And  Fred  Sanders  lives  at  •ii)"^!  4tli  Street  NW.,  Wash- 
ington, D.C.? 

Mr.  Blick.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  receive  any  information  from  these  men  that 
they  had  received  this  film  from  one  George  Fodor? 

Mr.  Blick.  Later  on  I  i-eceived  information  that  Stone  had  re- 
ceived this  film  from  George  Fodor,  from  whom  we  made  a  purchase 
of  about  five-hundred-and-some-odd  dollars  of  material  in  order  to 
get  into  his  house. 

Mr.  BoBO.  When  you  speak  of  matei-ial,  you  are  s^x-aking  of  ]5or- 
nographic  material  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Is  that  decks  of  cards,  books,  magazines,  pictures? 

Mr.  Blick.  Cards,  film,  pictures,  anything  that  w^as  indecent  or 

Mr;  BoBo.  Did  you  discover  whether  or  not  Mr.  Fodor  had  previous 
records  of  dealing  in  obscene  and  pornographic  material? 

Mr.  Blick.  At  that  time,  no,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  determine  at  a  later  time  whether  or  not  he 
has  dealt  in  obscene  and  pornographic  pictures? 

Mr.  Blick.  ^Vlr.  Fodor  is  from  Tel  Aviv,  and  Mr.  Stone  has  a  pre- 
vious record. 

Mr.  BoBo.  In  what  cities  did  Mr.  Philip  Stone  operate? 

Mr.  Blick.  Canada,  New  York. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Where  in  Canada  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  Ottawa,  if  I  recall  correctly.  * 

Mr.  BoBo.  Ottawa,  Canada? 

Mr.  Blick.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Could  it  have  been  Toronto,  Canada  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  It  could  have  been;  yes,  sir.  He  stated  that  someone 
had  i)ut  that  in  his  trunk.  He  said  that  he  w^as  an  innocent  victim 
of  that. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Did  you  determine  whether  or  not  he  had  ever  operated 
in  Miami,  Fla.  ? 

Mr,  Blick.  Yes,  sir.  He  had  foui-  IG-millimeter  sound  machines 
in  ]\Iiami;  and  he  w^as  confronted  with  that,  and  he  stated  he  used 
these  machines  to  go  around  to  the  different  hotels  to  show  old  type 

65263—55 8 


Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  of  any  other  cities  in  which  Mr.  Stone  has 
operated,  that  your  investigation  showed,  besides  Toronto,  Canada, 
and  Miami,  Fla.,  and  Washington,  D.  C? 

Mr.  Blick.  Offhand,  no. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  he  ever  operated  in  New 
York  City? 

Mr.  Blick.  He  had  connections.  I  know  that  he  had  connections 
here  in  New  York.  If  you  want  me  to  give  you  the  lifeline  I  will  be 
glad  to  do  so. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  do  j-ou  mean  by  the  lifeline? 

Mr.  Blick.  The  connections. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Yes ;  I  wish  you  would  give  us  that. 

Chairman  Kefauv'er.  This  is  from  your  police  records  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  No  ;  it  is  from  my  investigation. 

Mr.  BoBo.  From  your  own  knowledge  would  you  give  us  the  lifeline, 

Mr.  Blick.  Mr.  Stone  received  the  film  from  George  Fodor.  George 
Fodor  received  the  film  from  Ike  Dorman,  in  Baltimore,  Md. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  have  a  record  of  Mr.  Dorman  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  do  not;  no. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Do  you  Icnow  whether  or  not  Mr.  Dorman  is  a  known 
dealer  in  pornographic  material  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  do. 

Mr.  BoBO.  That  he  has  a  record  of  dealing  in  pornographic 
material  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  It  was  just  in  the  last  48  hours  that  I  have  the  record, 
whicli  has  not  been  sent  to  me,  that  we  have  been  working  on  con- 
stantly to  locate  Dorman. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Will  you  make  this  record  available  to  the  committee 
when  you  receive  it? 

Mr.  Blick.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  asked  for  it  to  be  sent  to  the  committee. 

Mr.  BoBo.  You  were  describing  the  lifeline  of  where  the  material 
came  from. 

Mr.  Blick.  George  Fodor  and  Ike  Dorman  left  Baltimore,  came 
to  New  York,  and  they  met  a  man  named  Lou  Shomer,  and  another 
person  by  the  name  of 

Mr.  BoBO.  On  each  one  of  these  would  you  spell  out  the  name,  and 
give  us  the  address  of  them  if  you  have  them. 

Mr.  Buck.  I  do  not  have  the  address  of  Lou  Shomer.  The  other 
man's  name  was  Ben. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Do  yo;i  know  his  last  name  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  do  not. 

Mr.  BoBO.  AVhere  did  he  reside? 

Mr.  Blick.  In  New  York. 

Cliairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Blick,  any  names  that  you  have  in  your 
investigation  or  in  your  police  records,  get  the  names  fully,  and  also 
the  address  and  the  city,  so  we  can  identify  it  in  the  record. 

Mr.  Bi.iCK.  I  think  you  have,  if  I  may  say  so,  Mr.  Chairman,  the 
person  who  I  have  reference  to  at  the  present  time,  that  he  has  a 
subpena  before  this  committee  now,  to  aj^pear  before  the  committee. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Who  are  you  speaking  of  there  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  Lou  Shomer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Yes,  sir ;  we  have  Mr.  Shomer  under  subpena.  He  is  from 
Brooklyn,  N.  Y  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  That  is  right. 


Mr.  BoBO.  How  were  these  materials  transported  from  New  York 
to  Washington?     Did  your  investigation  reveal  that? 

Mr.  Buck.  My  investigation  revealed  that  the  car  was  left,  and 
someone  picked  the  car  up ;  they  had  drinks  while  the  car  had  disap- 
peared ;  when  they  came  back  the  car  was  loaded,  and  they  returned 
to  Baltimore  by  private  automobile. 

Mr.  BoBO.  They  described  to  you  that  they  brought  their  auto- 
mobile to  New  York  City,  left  it?  Did  they  tell  you  where  they  had 
left  their  automobile  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  "^Ylien  you  say  "they,"  who  are  you  talking  about? 

Mr.  BoBO.  George  Fodor  and  Ike  Dorman. 

Mr.  Blick.  Neither  one  of  them  told  me  a  thing.  It  was  through 
my  investigation,  from  confidential  sources  that  I  cannot  reveal. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Do  you  have  any  estimate,  Inspector,  as  to  the  number 
or  the  value  of  seizures  of  pornographic  material  that  you  have  con- 
fiscated in  Washington  within  the  past  2  years  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  Conservatively  I  would  say  around  $50,000. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Inspector  Blick,  have  you  ever  seized  in  the  city  of 
Washington  any  phonograph  records  which  are  pornogi^aphic  in 
nature  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  have. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Would  you  describe  whether  or  not  these  phonograph 
records  portrayed  in  voice  various  kinds  of  sexual  activity  and 
perversion  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  They  do. 

Mr.  BoBO.  How  many  of  these  pornographic  records  have  you 
seized  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  A  very  large  quantity  of  them. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Could  you  put  an  approximate  evaluation  upon  these 
phonograph  records  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  At  the  retail  value,  I  would  say  between  ten  and  fifteen 
thousand  dollars. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  this  a  comparatively  new  innovation  in  the  porno- 
graphic field,  to  your  field  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  No  ;  it  is  becoming  more  popular,  thougli. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  the  source  of  these  phonograph  records? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  do  not. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Are  these  phonograph  records  marked  with  the  manu- 
facturers' names? 

Mr,  Blick.  They  are  not. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Are  there  any  addresses  shown  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  bring  some  of  these  phonograph  records  with 
you  to  New  York  City  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  brought  the  tape  recording  in  preference  to  the  rec- 
ords, because  the  records  could  be  very  easily  broken  on  the  way  to 
New  York  and  return. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  will  make  this  tape  recording  available  to  the 
subcommittee  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  will ;  yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  it  be  filed  as  an  exhibit. 

Mr.  Blick,  I  liave  been  interested  in  some  pictures  liere  that  I  see. 
Apparently  the  place  where  this  movie  was  being  s1io\mi — here  are 
some  pictures  with  whisky  bottles,  and  the  place  is  torn  up.    It  looks 


like  a  pretty  rough  party.    How  many  boys  did  you  say  you  found 
there  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  Approximately  197. 

Chairman  KErAuvp:R.  Will  you  identify  these  pictures  and  state 
whether  they  are  the  pictures  made  at  that  place — and  file  them  in  the 
record  if  they  are. 

Mr.  Buck.  These  pictures  were  taken  by  a  police  photographer. 

Chairman  Kefau\^r.  AVliat  did  you  find  in  the  room  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  This  is  the  way  the  kids  left  the  place.  It  was  like  a 
buncli  of  animals  stampeding,  tr^dng  to  get  out.  After  we  had  been 
there  and  called  the  juvenile  squad,  for  about  an  hour  and  a  half- 
one  kid  jumped  out  of  the  window. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Did  it  hurt  him  bad  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  We  thought  he  was  dead,  but  wdien  he  got  up  and  had 
tlie  doctor  examine  him,  I  said,  "Why  in  the  w^orld  did  you  jump  out 
of  that  W'indow?" 

He  made  tlie  remark,  "Someone  told  me  the  police  was  coming  in." 

I  said,  "We  have  been  in  here  for  about  an  hour  and  a  half  or  2 
hours,  son." 

He  said,  "I  just  got  the  information." 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Some  of  these  kids  were  11  years  old? 

Mr.  Blick.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  of  them  were  under  21  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  All  of  the  kids;  yes,  sir.  As  I  said,  some  of  the  men 
that  were  there,  that  were  the  paters  of  the  fraternity — they  were  there. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  else  did  you  find  in  this  room? 

Mr.  Blick.  Contraceptive  material  thrown  against  the  wall,  and 
on  the  floors  that  the  boys  had  in  their  possession.  Whiskey  bottles, 
beer  bottles.  Up  on  the  next  floor  they  had  crap  tables — these  portable 
tables,  and  card  tables. 

Chairman  Kefaltver.  Mr.  Blick.  have  you  been  getting  information 
about  similar  parties  of  that  kind  that  led  you  to  raid  this  particular 

Mr.  Blick.  Whenever  we  get  information  of  this  type  we  work  hard, 
and  if  we  cannot  get  sufficient  evidence  to  get  a  warrant  to  get  in,  I 
personally  supervise  the  job  to  crash  it  so  we  can  prevent  these  kids 
from  seeing  or  having  this  kind  of  fun,  if  you  want  to  call  it  fun. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  There  have  been  other  instances  of  this  kind 
that  you  have  broken  up  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  About  how  many  in  the  last  2  years  in  Wash- 
ington ? 

Mr.  Blick.  Well,  in  the  last  2  years  I  w^ould  say  not  over  2. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  There  have  been  some  over  a  period  of  a 
longer  time  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  Yes,  sir.  Most  of  these  things  are  not  carried  on  in 
public  places.  A  smaller  amount  of  boys,  or  a  mixed  crowd,  will 
patronize  them ;  and,  of  course,  we  do  not  get  word  of  it. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Did  you  establish  who  owned  this  Don  Pallini 
dance  studio  at  2625  Connecticut  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  A  man  by  the  name  of  Kurtz.  Nick  Scholnick  was 
running  the  place ;  also  known  as  Nick  Martin. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Does  he  have  a  police  record? 


Mr.  Blick.  We  could  not  fingerprint  him  because  the  District 
Attorney  would  not  give  us  papers  against  him. 

Chairman  KefxVuver.  Proceed,  Mr.  Bobo. 

Mr.  BoBO.  At  one  time  you  arrested,  on  February  29,  1952,  a  Mr. 
Vincent  Chucoski,  607  Fourth  Street  NW.,  Washington,  D.  C? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  did. 

Mr.  BoBO.  For  Avhat  was  he  arrested,  and  what  did  he  have  in  his 
possession.  Inspector? 

Mr.  Blick.  Vincent  Chucoski  at  the  time  of  his  arrest  at  607  Fourth 
Street  NW,  apartment  1,  had  14  boxes  containing  obscene  and  indecent 
pictures,  assorted  photograph  supplies,  slides  with  obscene  pictures 
on  them,  obscene  books,  and  obscene  pamphlets,  two  movie  projectors, 
screens,  pictures,  dryers,  enlargers,  slide  projectors,  2  rewinders,  10 
albums  of  assorted  sizes  containing  indecent,  obscene  pictures. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  place  a  value  upon  this  material.  Inspector? 

Mr.  Blick.  You  mean  a  commercial  value  or  what  I  would  value 
it  at? 

Mr.  BoBO.  A  commercial  value  and  what  you  would  value  it  at. 

Mr.  Blick.  The  commercial  value  of  this  would  run  around  from 
one  thousand  to  two  thousand  dollars.     My  value  of  it  would  be  trash. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  seize  a  card  file  of  500  negatives  of  pornographic 
photographs  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  did. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Was  this  card  file  indexed  according  to  the  type  of  per- 
version it  represented  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  Yes. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Did  you  determine  from  this  person  where  the  negatives 
were  developed  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  They  tell  you  nothing.     He  developed  his  own  pictures. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  determine  from  this  person  the  extent  of  the 
traffic  in  which  he  was  engaged  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  He  told  us  nothing. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Was  this  person  convicted  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  He  was. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  sentence  did  he  receive  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  Sixty  days  and  $200. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Among  these  negatives,  were  there  any  pictures  of  juve- 
niles ? 

Mr.  Blick.  There  were. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Have  you  found  in  pornographic  material,  both  film  and 
pictures,  that  there  is  a  frequency  of  juveniles  being  used  as  models 
and  to  act  out  these  scenes  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  have. 

Mr.  Bobo.  What  is  the  age  of  the  youngest  person  you  have  seen 
posed  in  these  pictures? 

Mr.  Blick.  About  Si/o,  4  years  old. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  find  that  a  number  of  14-  and  15-year-old  boys 
and  girls  are  portrayed  in  acts  of  perversion  in  these  films  and  pic- 
tures ? 

Mr.  Blick.  Not  the  boys  as  much  as  the  young  ladies. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Don't  use  any  names,  but  you  mentioned  a 
314-year-old.    Do  you  want  to  elaborate  on  that,  Mr.  Blick? 

Mr.  Blick.  Mr.  Chairman,  my  undercover  men  went  to  a  residence 
to  make  a  purchase  of  merchandise  of  obscene  and  indecent  pictures. 


and  in  his  report  he  reported,  back  that  the  man  at  the  time  was  taking 
a  picture  of  his  three  children  and  his  wife,  all  nude.  The  children 
were  looking  at  the  wife's  person. 

Chairman  KErAuvT:R.  You  have  run  across  a  good  deal  of  these  very 
young  children  being  used  in  that  way  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  Not  as  young  as  that ;  no,  sir ;  but  in  adolescents  I  would 
say  "Yes." 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  right. 

Mr.  Bono.  Inspector  Blick,  were  you  familiar  with  the  investiga- 
tion made  by  an  investigator  of  this  subcommittee  involving  a  person 
by  the  name  of  Joe  or  Jake  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  have. 

Mr.  BoBO.  The  investigator  purchased  a  quantity  of  obscene  ma- 
terial from  Jake,  who  was  a  street  peddler  in  Washington? 

Mr.  Blick.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Do  you  have  the  full  name  of  this  person  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  James  Hammon. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  know  his  address? 

Mr.  Blick.  Lorton,  Va. 

Chairman  Kefauaer.  That  is  a  penal  institution? 

Mr.  Blick.  Yes,  sir.     He  is  serving  2  years. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  have  his  record — the  number  of  times  of  his 
arrest  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  do  not. 

Mr.  BoBO.  He  has  been  arrested  numerous  times  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  He  was  arrested  so  many  times,  the  judge  finally  said, 
"I  am  going  to  put  you  away  this  time  to  be  sure  to  keep  you  off  the 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Tell  us  in  your  own  experience  what  can  be 
done  to  help  stamp  out  this  business.  In  the  District  of  Columbia 
it  is  all  on  a  Federal  level. 

Mr.  Blick.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  personally  asked,  myself,  laws 
that  would  help  us,  because  we  come  under  the  jurisdiction  of  the 
Federal  Government.  Transportation,  regardless  of  how  the  trans- 
portation might  be  involved,  would  be  a  Federal  act. 

Chairman  Kefau\'er.  As  it  is  now  it  is  unlawful  to  send  this  stuff 
through  the  mails,  but  the  mail  statute  is  vague  and  indefinite.  It 
is  very  questionable  whether  it  covers  film  and  phonograph  records. 

Mr.  Blick.  It  covers  that — anything  obscene,  indecent,  or  lasciv- 
ious, it  covers. 

Chairman  Kefauv^er.  There  is  some  question  about  it,  though ;  but 
the  trouble  is  that  they  carry  it  in  trunks  in  automobiles,  and  they 
may  not  use  the  mails. 

Mr.  Blick.  That  is  right.  The  Federal  law  of  the  ICC— that  is 
interstate  transportation — I  may  carry  this  suitcase  on  the  train  as 
long  as  a  porter  on  the  train  does  not  touch  this  suitcase,  and  you 
caMuot  charge  me  with  interstate  transportation. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  is  the  way  a  lot  of  it  is  transported. 

Mr.  Blick.  That  I  cannot  say,  but  it  is  transported.  That  is  the 
only  thing  I  can  say. 

Chairman  Kevauver.  How  about  the  stiffness  of  sentences?  Look- 
ing over  the  police  records — this  is  your  official  record — $250  or  90 
days;  $100  or  60  days;  nolle  pressed,  nolle  prossed,  nolle  prossed,  not 
guilty,  nolle  prossed,  $100  or  90  days.     It  looks  like  the  big  majority 


of  them  either  don't  get  convicted,  or  nolle  pressed,  or  have  a  fine 
of  $100  or  CO  days.     Do  you  think  that  is  sufficient  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  do  not. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  So  you  would  recommend  something  more 
than  a  misdemeanor? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  certainly  do.  This  is  more  dangerous  than  narcotics, 
because  you  inject  narcotics  to  an  individual  and  it  is  over  with. 
These  pamphlets,  these  booklets,  can  be  passed  from  one  to  another. 

It  is  the  same  as  a  prostitute  that  can  infect  an  army  of  men  if  she 
is  permitted  to  hang  around  the  camp.  It  is  the  same  as  this  pornog- 
raphy that  is  being  passed  around.  It  can  be  passed  from  one  hand 
to  another,  and  it  is  causing  a  lot  of  headaches  in  the  country.  It  is 
causing  kids  who  are  just  at  the  age  that  they  should  know  right  from 
wrong  to  become  perverts  and  homosexuals. 

Chairman  Kjefauver.  Is  there  any  doubt  in  your  mind  that  a  lot 
of  sex  crimes  that  we  have  had — that  is,  criminal  assault,  rape,  and 
other  kinds  of  sex  crimes,  are  the  direct  result  of  this  pornographic 
literature  that  is  being  distributed  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  That  would  be  only  my  personal  opinion. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Wliat  is  your  opinion  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  would  say  yes,  because  you  would  incite  the  individual 
that  would  read  such  filth,  and  then  he  would  go  out  to  look  for  relief. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  there  is  an  increasing  percentage  of  sex 
crimes,  particularly  among  young  people  these  days. 

Mr.  Blick.  According  to  the  newspapers;  yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Blick,  I  hand  you  here  what  is  marked 
as  "Exhibit  A."  Is  that  the  list  of  court  records  of  people  charged 
and  brought  to  trial,  and  what  happened  to  them  in  the  last  2  years? 

Mr.  Blick.  It  is. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Showing  what  the  extent  of  the  sentence  was. 

Mr.  Blick.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  that  be  filed  as  an  exhibit  in  your  testi- 

Mr.  Blick,  we  appreciate  your  cooperation  and  that  of  Chief  Mur- 
ray, and  I  want  to  personallj^  express  my  thanks  for  the  vigor  that 
you  and  Chief  Murray  and  your  department  has  been  going  after 
this  sort  of  filth  in  Washington  during  recent  times. 

Mr.  Blick.  Thank  you,  Mr.  Chairman.  You  can  rest  assured  that 
we  will  continue  to  do  so. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  hope  you  will  continue  even  more  vigor- 
ously, if  possible. 

Mr.  Blick.  Thank  you,  sir. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Blick,  have  you  also  been  interested  in  legisla- 
tion— confiscating  the  equipment,  the  automobiles  that  pornographers 
use  in  their  trade  ? 

Mr.  Blick.  I  have.  I  think  that  the  law  should  be  passed  that 
where  these  seizures  are  taken  from  an  automobile,  or  a  bookstore, 
that  everything — the  automobile  or  the  bookstore,  or  any  other  store 
that  the  buy  is  made  in — should  be  confiscated.  The  merchant,  or 
whoever  he  might  be,  should  forfeit  his  rights  to  all  of  his  property 
within  the  jurisdiction  where  the  buy  was  made. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  is  the  law  at  present  as  to  narcotics. 
Also,  when  any  alcoholic  beverage — during  the  time  of  prohibition — 
and  I  suppose  now  where  it  doesn't  have  a  Federal  stamp  on  it — it  is 


not  only  subject  to  contiscation,  but  the  vehicle  of  conveyance  is  also 
subject  to  confiscation. 

Mr.  Blick.  Yes.  sir. 

Chairman  Kefa'uver.  You  would  have  the  same  thing  apply  to  this 
pornographic  literature. 

Mr.  Blick.  If  we  could  get  the  search  and  seizure  from  the  narcotics 
section  of  the  narcotics  la^Y  to  apply  to  pornography,  it  would  be  a 
great  help  to  us. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Thank  you,  Mr.  Blick. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Mr.  Lawrence  A.  "\Vliipple. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  somebody  with  you  ? 

Mr.  Whipple.  I  have  two  men  with  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Commissioner  Whipple,  you  have  with  you 
Sgt.  Alfred  Jago  and  Detective  John  Higgins? 

Mr.  Whipple.  Yes. 

(Lawrence  A.  Whipple,  director  of  public  safety  of  Jersey  City, 
N.  J.,  and  Sgt.  Alfred  Jago  and  Detective  John  Higgins,  of  the  Jersey 
City  Police  Department,  were  duly  sworn  by  the  chairman.) 


Chairman  Kefauver.  I  have  been  told  by  the  members  of  our  staff 
of  the  outstanding  effort  that  you,  Mr.  Whipple,  as  commissioner,  and 
your  associates  in  Jersey  City,  have  been  making— the  special  drive 
against  pornographic  literature,  and  of  the  wonderful  cooperation 
you  have  given.  I  want  to  take  this  opportunity  of  personally  thank- 
ing you  for  helping  us,  and  commending  you  on  your  work. 

Proceed,  Mr.  Bobo. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  are  Commissioner  Lawrence  A.  Whipple? 

Mr.  Whipple.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Director  of  public  safety  of  Jersey  City,  N.  J.  ? 

Mr.  Whipple.  That  is  correct,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Your  address  is  what? 

Mr.  Whipple.  My  home  address  is  92  Bentley  Avenue,  Jersey  City. 

Mr.  BoBO.  For  how  many  years  have  you  been  director  of  public 
safety  ? 

Mr.  Whipple.  Since  December  15,  1953. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Were  you  connected  with  police  work  prior  to  that  in 
any  capacity  ? 

Mr.  Whipple.  No,  sir ;  but  I  was  with  the  Office  of  Price  Stabili- 
zation a  little  over  2  years  in  the  city  of  New  York,  as  the  chief  law 
enforcement  officer  there,  special  assistant  attorney  general  under 
Attorney  General  Richmond  in  Newark  for  approximately  a  year. 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  Jersey  City  there  has  been  quite  a  campaign  waged  by 
your  division  and  by  the  police  department  and  by  the  city  against 
pornographic  literature  ? 

Mr.  Whipple.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Bono.  Would  you  tell  us  about  this  campaign  which  you  all 
have  waged  there? 


Chairman  Kefauver.  Tell  us  in  your  own  words,  and  if  you  want 
to  call  on  Mr.  Higgins  or  Mr.  Jago  to  supplement  anything  you 
say,  you  call  on  them. 

Mr.  Whipple.  Briefly,  I  would  like  to  explain  it  from  an  admin- 
istrative viewpoint,  and  then  for  the  details  follow  Senator  Kefauver's 
suggestion  and  let  the  two  policemen  carry  on  from  there. 

A  short  time  after  I  went  into  office  1  was  frankly  very  concerned 
with  newspaper  reports  and  magazine  articles  I  had  read  concerning 
the  distribution  of  this  so-called  pornographic  salacious  literature. 

I  had  these  two  men  dispatched  to  my  office  to  work  in  what  might 
be  called  a  confidential  squad,  checking  newsstands  and  certain  sources 
of  what  we  considered  might  be  distribution  points  for  this  so-called 

I  instructed  these  men  to  follow  any  and  all  leads  regardless  of 
whether  they  considered  them  crank  letters  or  any  letters  of  any  kind 
from  citizens  or  anybody  in  any  capacity  in  the  city  that  reported 
the  seeing  or  finding  of  this  literature  on  stands. 

Together  with  this  one  of  the  denominations  in  the  city — I  don't 
want  to  mention  it  unless  you  give  me  permission  to — started  a  con- 
centrated campaign  in  their  parish,  and  a  certain  clergyman  was  put 
in  charge. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Anything  worthwhile  like  that,  mention  the 

Mr.  Whipple.  St.  Adens  Roman  Catholic  Church.  Father  Van 
Wie  happens  to  be  in  charge.  He  and  Father  Belger,  also  from  St. 
Nicholas  Roman  Catholic  Church — they  formed  committees  in  their 
parish,  comprised  primarily  of  women  who  went  out  and  visited  all  the 
newstands,  stationery  stores,  cigarstores  or  candy  stores  where  this 
literature  might  be  found. 

They  called  weekly  and  biweekly  meetings.  The  w^omen  would  go 
out  like  a  vanguard  or  a  vigilante  committee,  if  you  might  call  it  such. 
I'hey  would  come  back  and  report  the  locations  of  where  these  periodi- 
cals were  being  sold. 

The  priests  would  send  somebody  from  the  police  department,  or 
one  of  these  women,  or  both,  to  this  man ;  talk  to  him  about  the  effect 
tliat  the  sale  and  distribution  of  these  periodicals  would  have  upon 
the  juveniles,  particularly  in  the  locality,  and  ask  him  to  cooperate 
with  the  drive;  to  clear  the  stands  of  this  literature. 

I  would  say  that  in  more  than  half  the  instances  the  dealers  co- 
operated. They  in  turn  would  receive  an  emblem  or  a  shield  which 
would  be  pasted  on  the  window  of  their  stores  or  establishments, 
where  they  were  selling  their  merchandise,  wdth  wording  something 
like  "Approved."     It  was  a  little  short  gold  emblem. 

In  some  instances  we  met  resistance.  I  can  recall  2  iiistances  where 
I  happen  to  know  counsel  who  represented  2  of  these  people.  I  called 
them  in  together  with  one  of  the  clergymen.  We  spoke  to  thei r  counsel, 
who  in  turn  spoke  to  his  client,  and  they  immediately  cooperated  and 
received  a  shield. 

This  has  worked  tremendously  well  in  the  city  of  Jersey  City. 

Statistics  I  don't  have  at  my  fingertips,  but  I  tell  you  frankly  and 
very  honestly  as  far  as  this  city  is  concerned,  this  is  one  problem  that 
has  not  come  to  the  surface  as  yet.  I  don't  dare  say  it  doesn't  exist 
there,  but  if  it  does  it  is  well  hidden. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  mean  a'ou  have  <>ot  it  under  control  ? 


Mr.  Whipple.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  you  have  substantially  eliminated  it? 

Mr.  Whipple.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefaitver.  Are  j^ou  keeping  up  this  effort  ? 

Mr.  Whipple.  Yes,  Senator.  It  is  a  day-to-day  operation,  and  these 
men  have  instructions  that  is  their  primary  job  in  the  department  of 
public  safety,  to  stay  on  top  of  this  problem  and  keep  this  filth  ofT 
the  newsstands  in  the  city  of  Jersey  City. 

I  have  styled  this  program  a  community-counteraction  program, 
and  I  don't  want  to  leave  the  impression  that  only  the  Catholic  Church 
is  doing  something  about  this;  because  I  firmly  believe  that  whether 
it  be  Catholic,  Protestant,  or  Jewish,  any  civic  association  or  society, 
or  religious  society,  could  do  the  same  thing  or  follow  the  same  pattern. 

It  is  my  firm  belief  that  this  must  start  right  at  the  community  level 
with  the  cooperation  of  all  civic,  fraternal,  and  religious  societies  and 
associations,  to  rid  society  of  what  I  consider  to  be  a  real  menace  today. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  have  information  that  churches  of  all 
denominations  are  doing  similar  very  worthwhile  kinds  of  activities 
in  different  parts  of  the  country,  so  that  they  are  all  interested. 

Tell  us  what  condition  you  found  when  you  started  out  in  this 
effort,  or  do  j^ou  want  to  get  one  of  your  men  to  help  out? 

Mr.  AVhipple.  Perhaps  one  of  the  policemen  should  answer  that. 

Sergeant  Jagg.  When  we  were  given  this  assignment  we  made  checks 
at  different  times  of  the  day  in  and  around  the  school  areas,  stationery 
stores,  where  most  of  the  juveniles  would  congregate  during  lunch 
hours  and  after  school. 

We  checked  most  of  these  newsstands,  and  the  ones  we  did  find  we 
confiscated — there  might  have  been  6,  10,  12  books  around.  We  made 
visits  later  on  and  we  kept  it  down  more  or  less  to  a  pretty  good 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  find  this  pornographic  material  the  type  of 
material  which  you  are  speaking  about,  among  schoolchildren  or 
children  of  young  age  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  No,  we  didn't  find  it  among  the  children.  It  was  just 
salacious  books  that  were  in  the  stores.  That  was  primarily  our  in- 
vestigation— to  keep  that  down.,  because  Ave  did  receive  a  few  com- 
plaints from  different  parishes  that  there  was  some  of  it  around ;  but 
up  until  the  time  that  we — back  in  April — we  didn't  run  into  any  of  the 
pornographic  material  at  all. 

Mr.  BoBo.  You  were  aiming  primarily  at  the  comic  book  and  paper- 
bound  book  in  the  neAvstands  at  this  time  { 

Sergeant  Jago.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  BoBo.  You  say  in  April  you  ran  into  the  pornographic  litera- 
ture trade  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  it  come  to  your  attention  this  was  coming  into  the 
hands  of  juveniles? 

Sergeant  Jago.  At  that  time  due  to  our  efforts  in  going  around  we 
had  in  the  course  of  our  stopping  different  people  and  going  into  the 
different  stores,  we  more  or  less  created  a  good  fellowship,  and  we  re- 
ceived a  call  on  April  23  that  there  Avas  some  strange  thing  going  on 
in  the  basement  of  one  of  the  houses  in  our  city. 

Chairman  Kefauvkr.  April  23  of  last  year? 


Sergeant  Jago.  This  year,  sir,  1955.  Two  officers  were  dispatched 
around  there,  and  wlien  they  went  in — two  policemen  went  down  into 
the  basement, 

JNlr.  Bono.  Would  3'on  give  us  the  address  of  where  you  are  talking 

Sergeant  Jago.  Five  hundred  and  forty  Ocean  Avenue,  in  our  city. 

Mr.  Bono.  Do  you  have  the  name  of  the  occupant  of  that  property  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  It  so  happened  that  the  boy— his  parents  were  the 
owners  of  that  property,  and  he  lived  about  3  or  4  streets  away  from 
there,  but  he  did  take  these  boys  into  that  particular  building,  but  he 
<lidn't  reside  there. 

Mr.  BoBO.  His  name  w^as  what  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  Joseph  Cinnelli. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  is  his  address? 

■Sergeant  Jago.  Forty-three  Clerk  Street,  Jersey  City. 

Mr.  BoBO.  All  right,  sir. 

Sergeant  Jago.  Two  officers  went  into  the  basement,  and  there  were 
make-shift  chairs  or  benches  there,  and  there  were  six  boys  between 
the  ages  of  18  and  21,  and  were  at  the  stage  where  they  were  going  to 
witness  Cinnelli  showing  these  rolls  of  film.  At  that  time  he  had  six 
to  be  shown.  He  did  not  start  his  operation  when  the  policemen 

Mr.  BoBO.  Were  these  16-millimeter,  8-millimeter 

Sergeant  Jago.  He  had  six  8-millimeter  at  that  time. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Were  they  black  and  white,  or  colored  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  They  were  black  and  white. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  chap  wdiose  name  you  gave,  is  he  a 

Sergeant  Jago.  He  w\as  27  years  of  age. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  How  old  were  the  kids  arounds? 

Sergeant  Jago.  The  boys  were  between  the  ages  of  18  and  21.  Two 
of  them  were  in  the  service,  in  the  Army,  and  four  were  leaving  the 
following  week  to  go  into  the  service ;  and  this  was  a  little  going-away 
party  they  were  having  at  that  time. 

He  was  taken  to  the  precinct  and  questioned,  and  after  talking  to 
him  for  a  while  he  did  admit  that  he  had  4  more  rolls  of  film  at  home ; 
so  the  detectives  went  down  to  the  house  and  came  back  with  some 
more — all  told  he  had  10. 

Mr.  Bono.  Did  he  tell  you  where  he  had  received  these  films  from? 

Sergeant  Jago.  At  that  time  he  did  not.  That  was  on  Saturday 
night.  Over  the  weekend  he  was  confined  to  City  Prison,  and  Monday 
morning  we  asked  the  magistrate  to  postpone  the  case  for  24  hours 
to  see  if  we  could  get  the  source  of  his  supply.  The  judge  granted 
our  request. 

We  took  him  to  a  captain's  office  in  the  precinct  where  the  court 
is  also  located,  and  we  talked  to  him  for  practically  2  hours.  He  finally 
cooperated  and  gave  us  the  name  of  the  man  who  w-as  supplying  him, 
who  on  five  different  occasions  he  had  bought  film  from. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  was  that  man's  name? 

Sergeant  Jago.  At  that  time  he  gave  us  the  name  of  Smitty.  He 
Imew  him  as  "Smitty,"  and  all  he  had  was  a  phone  number. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  he  give  you  the  phone  number  at  that  time  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  He  did,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  was  that  phone  number? 


Sergeant  Jago.  At  that  time  the  phone  number  was  Schuyler  4r-1800. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Was  that  in  Jersey  City,  N.  J.  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  No  ;  that  is  in  New  York  City.  It  is  a  hotel  in  New 
York  City  at  91st  Street  and  Broadway. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  is  the  name  of  that  hotel  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  The  Grey  stone  Hotel. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  check  with  that  number  to  determine  who  Smitty 

Sergeant  Jago.  We  checked  with  that  number,  and  made  a  call  for 
Smitty,  and  we  stayed  by  the  phone  because  Smitty  wasn't  around; 
but  we  were  told  to  stand  by ;  that  he  would  get  in  touch  with  us — 
by  the  operator  in  that  hotel. 

Maybe  about  half  an  hour  later  we  received  a  call  from  the  man 
known  as  Smitty.  We  spoke  to  him  on  the  pretext  that  I  was  Cinelli. 
I  asked  him  could  he  sell  me  some  film. 

He  said,  "Sure,  I  will  be  right  over." 

I  said,  "I  don't  want  it  now.     How  about  tomorrow  ?" 

Through  our  investigation  knowing  this  man  had  never  been  in 
Jersey  City,  we  made  an  appointment  for  Secaucus,  which  is  adjacent 
to  our  city. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Secaucus,  N.  J.  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  Yes,  sir.  The  next  morning  we  had  made  a  date  to 
meet  him  at  10 :  30,  the  next  morning.  Fortunately  we  were  there 
at  9 :  30,  and  Smitty  got  off  a  bus,  carrying  a  brown  leather  bag ;  and 
at  that  time  we  went  over  and  apprehended  him. 

Mr.  Bono.  What  was  the  quantity  of  material  that  you  seized  from 
him  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  He  had  in  that  bag  at  that  time,  which  was  the 
26th  of  April,  he  had  thirteen  8-millinieter  rolls  of  film,  and  one 
16-millimeter.  He  had  216  still  photographs,  one  rubber  penis,  three 
decks  of  obsence  playing  cards,  70  cartoon  books,  six  magazines,  and 
50  French  story  hooks. 

Mr.  BoBO.  We  have  here  an  envelope  marked  "Exhibit  No.  5". 
Can  3^ou  identify  this  envelope  and  say  whether  or  not  it  contains 
material  seized  in  that  particular  raid?  Do  you  have  the  deck  of  52 
playing  cards  showing  different  pictures  of  various  forms  of 
perversion  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Between  men  and  women  ? 
Sergeant  Jago.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  determine  the  selling  price  of  those? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Can  you  identify  that  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  Yes;  that  is  the  material  that  he  had  on  his  person 
Avlien  he  was  apprehended. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  committee  staff  will  take  possession  of  it. 
Mr.  BoBO.  What  was  the  value  of  the  material  ? 
Sergeant  Jago.  His  estimate  was  about  $500  at  that  time.  He  said 
it  was  worth  about  $500.  He  gave  us  information  on  the  still  photo- 
graphs which  he  had  216  of.  He  said  he  would  receive  50  cents  apeice^ 
but  like  all  peddlers,  he  would  take  40  cents  or  he  would  take  35  cents 
if  that  is  all  you  had  on  your  person. 

Mr.  BoBO."  How  much  did  he  offer  to  sell  it  to  you  for.  Did  he 
determine  the  sale  price  to  you  ? 


Sergeant  Jago.  Yes;  he  said  50  cents.  Of  course,  he  didn't  stick 
right  to  the  price.  The  decks  of  obscene  playing  cards,  which  were 
just  disphxyed  here,  they  were  selling  for  $2  a  deck.  Magazines,  he 
had  six  of  them.  They  were  $2.50  apiece.  The  French  story  books 
were  anywhere  from  2  to  3  dollars. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  determine  from  him  how  many  trips  he  made 
back  and  forth  between  New  York  City  and  into  Jersey  City  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  Well,  he  had  never  been  into  Jersey  City. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Or  into  New  Jersey  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  He  did  give  us  information  that  he  did  come  in 
around  the  docks  of  Hoboken,  and  also  on  one  occasion  he  had  made 
a  sale  to  Cinelli  in  Secaucus. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  get  his  police  record  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  We  never  received  a  police  record  on  him  because 
the  arrest  was  made  in  Secaucus ;  but  I  don't  believe  he  had  a  police 
record,  because  nothing  ever  came  back ;  but  I  know  with  the  coopera- 
tion we  received  from  the  Secaucus  Police  Department,  if  a  record 
came  back  he  would  have  sent  it  to  us. 

Chairman  Kefau\^er.  He  distributed  it  around  in  several  different 
places  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  He  did. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  How  did  he  come  to  you  with  that — in  a 
suitcase  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  He  had  this  in  a  man's  overnight  bag.  He  had 
this  material  in  there,  and  he  came  over  on  the  bus  from  the  Port  of 
Authority  Terminal  into  Secaucus.  The  buses  run  over  through  the 
Lincoln  Tunnel,  and  out  that  way. 

When  he  came  to  Hoboken  he  used  to  come  over  on  the  ferry — at 
Hoboken,  around  the  docks,  14th  Street,  the  Bethlehem  Steel  places. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Proceed. 

Mr.  Bono.  I  have  a  picture  here  that  I  would  like  you  to  identify — 
a  photograph  of  the  bag  this  material  came  in. 

Sergeant  Jago.  Yes.  In  the  photograph  the  bag  is  on  the  left,  and 
the  other  material  is  stuff  that  was  seized  later  on. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  disposition  was  made  of  the  case? 

Sergeant  Jago.  At  a  hearing  in  Secaucus,  before  Magistrate  King, 
he  was  given  a  year  on  a  disorderly  person  charge — a  year  in  the 
county  jail.  He  w^as  held  under  $10,000  bail  for  the  action  of  the 
grand  jury  of  the  possession  of  the  obscene  literature  and  the  films. 

Mr.  BoBo.  I  don't  believe  you  ever  gave  us  for  the  record  what  his 
correct  name  was,  other  than  the  name  of  Smitty. 

Sergeant  Jago.  His  correct  name  was  Andy  Bruckner. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  he  at  present  confined  in  the  county  jail  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  The  information  we  received  Tuesday  night,  after 
being  here  on  Tuesday,  was  that  he  was  released  Tuesday  evening  on 
an  appeal  oh  the  disorderly  person  charge. 

Mr.  BoBO.  He  is  now  under  bond  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  Yes ;  and  a  subpena  by  your  committee  was  served 
on  him. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  He  is  the  one  we  were  trying  to  get  out  of  jail 
to  bring  over  here? 

Sergeant  Jago.  That  is  correct. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  He  is  now  under  subpena  ? 


Sergeant  Jago.  Yes.  A  subpena  was  served  on  him  as  he  left  the 
jail  on  Tuesday  evening. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  right,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  participate  in  the  arrest  of  a  person  by  the  name 
of  Selig  Wildman  ? 

Sergeant  Jagg.  No ;  I  did  not  participate  in  that  arrest  at  that  time. 
That  is  going  back  to  1951. 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  1951  were  you  familiar,  or  do  you  have  the  record 
of  that  case  with  you? 

Sergeant  J  ago.  I  have  a  report  here  from  our  police  department. 
We  knew  about  the  case,  but  we  were  assigned  to  another  precinct  at 
the  time,  and  it  is  only  since  Commissioner  Whipple  has  become  di- 
rector that  we  were  given  this  assignment  insofar  as  lewd  materiaL 
I  have  a  record  of  that  particular  case  going  back  to  November  21, 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Tell  us  about  it. 

Sergeant  Jago.  Well,  it  seems  there  was  some  information  received 
at  that  time  by  Chief  James  L.  McNamara  concerning  some  material 
that  was  being  sold  in  Ohio.  There  was  a  gentleman,  a  truck-driver, 
who  was  apprehended  there,  and  he  had  some  material ;  and  he  gave 
the  police  information  in  Ohio  that  he  did  buy  it  from  a  fellow  in 
Jersey  City,  who  does  business  around  truck  depots. 

The  chief  assigned  Lt.  Mark  Fallon  at  that  tune,  w^ho  is  now  a  cap- 
tain, and  Detective  Carroll  to  see  if  he  could  apprehend  this  man  as 
he  was  coming  over  our  highways.  He  was  arrested  November  21,. 
1951,  in  a  truck.  I  believe  it  was  about  a  2-ton  panel  delivei-y  truck 
wliich  he  was  using,  which  we  have  a  picture  of  here,  and  I  believe 
your  committee  has  some  photos,  too.  This  is  an  enlargement  of  the 
one  that  we  did  originally  give  you. 

Chairman  Kefau\t:r.  That  is  a  photo  of  what  you  found  in  the 
truck  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  That  is  the  truck  that  he  was  using  to  transport  the 

Chairman  KErAU\'ER.  Let  these  pictures  be  tiled  as  exhibits. 

Sergeant  Jago.  When  they  apprehended  him  with  the  truck  they 
brought  him  to  police  lieadquarters,  and  at  that  time  they  found  books, 
cards,  pictures,  pamphlets,  and  other  obscene  literature,  and  also  in 
his  truck  he  had  men's  work  gloves  and  overalls,  and  stutf  that  he 
would  sell  at  these  depots,  and  while  making  a  sale  of  this  particular 
type  he  would  also  try  to  induce  them  to  buy  some  of  this  obscene 
material,  which  he  did  sell  to  them ;  and  if  they  went  on  the  road  to 
some  other  city  they  would  dispose  of  it  there  or  keep  it  for  their 
own  use. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Did  you  investigate  that  truckdrivers  bought  this  ma- 
terial and  transported  it  to  other  cities? 

Sergeant  Jago.  The  original  complaints  came  from  "Ohio,  from 
the  cliief  of  police  of  one  of  the  cities  in  Ohio,  that  a  man  arrested 
there  gave  information  tliat  he  bought  it  from  Wildman. 

Mr.  BoBo.  He  was  the  truckdriver  tliat  picked  it  up  in  Jersey  City? 

Sergeant  Jago.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Was  there  any  evaluation  placed  on  the  seizure? 

Sergeant  Jago.  There  was  no  evaluation,  but  it  was  given  in  ton- 
nage.    They  did  search  his  garage  where  he  lived.     He  did  reside 


at  that  time  at  233  Union  Street,  in  Jersey  City;  and  they  found 
in  his  garag-e  about  a  ton  of  this  particular  type  of  niateriah 

Cliairnian  Kkfaivkr.  Since  he  has  been  arrested  and  has  a  record, 
will  you  give  his  full  name  and  address. 

Sergeant  Jago.  His  full  name  is  Selig  Wildman. 

Chairman  Kefalvi'^I!.  What  is  his  address? 

Sergeant  Jago.  He  is  66  years  of  age.  He  was  then  in  1951.  He 
lived  at  233  T^nion  Street,  Jersey  City. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Was  he  tried  and  convicted  'i 

Sergeant  Jagg.  He  was  tried  and  convicted,  and  sentenced  to  2  to  3 
years  m  State  prison. 

Mr.  BoiiO.  At  the  present  time  he  is  in  the  State  prison  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  Xo;  he  has  been  released.  He  has  served  his  sen- 

Chairman  Kefauver.  This  is  the  sign  that  you  put  in  the  stores 
that  complied  to  get  rid  of  all  that  material  ? 

^Ir.  Whipple.  That  is  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  that  be  Hied  for  the  record  as  an  exhibit. 

Mr.  Bono.  Detective  Higgins,  did  you  have  anything  j^ou  wished  to 
add  to  what  Sergeant  Jago  has  testihed  to? 

Detective  Higgins.  Sergeant  Jago  covered  it  pretty  well,  but  he 
didn't  mention  the  seizure  in  New  York.  I  was  designated,  together 
with  a  sergeant  from  Syracuse,  and  we  came 

Mr.  BoBo.  What  was  his  name? 

Sergeant  Jago.  I  have  it  here,  sir.    Gustave  Nicolia. 

Detective  Higgins.  Sergeant  Nicolia  and  I  came  to  New  York  to 
make  a  seizure  of  some  salacious  literature  and  obscene  books. 
Bruckner  had  given  us  the  address  of  his  hotel. 

Mr.  Bono.  The  Bruckner  you  si)eak  of  is  Andy  Bruckner  who  was 
mentioned  in  previous  testimony? 

Detective  Higgins.  That  is  right,  sir.  He  gave  us  permission  to 
come  over  and  get  the  rest  of  this  material.  We  went  to  the  100th 
Street  Station,  and  we  picked  up  Detective  Vincent  Satriano.  He 
was  of  the  24th  squad. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  New  York  City  Police? 

Detective  Higgins.  New  York  City.  We  went  to  room  411  with  the 
superintendent  of  the  hotel,  or  the  manager  of  the  hotel. 

:Mr.  BoBO.  Eooin  411  of  what  hotel? 

Detective  Higgins.  Greystone  Hotel,  91st  Street  and  Broadway. 
We  seized  14  rolls  of  film  and  quite  a  quantity  of  other  literature — 
magazines  and  story  books.  There  were  3  steel  suitcases  containing 
12  rolls  of  8-millimeter  film,  and  two  16-milIimeter  films;  6  cartons 
of  material — the  same  type  that  was  found  in  the  bag  he  was  carry- 
ing when  he  was  arrested. 

I  think  your  committee  has  a  photo  of  the  material  that  was  picked 
up  in  New  York.  It  is  right  here  in  this  picture.  He  valued  it  at 
about  $600. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  determine  wdiether  Mr.  Bruckner  ever  operated 
in  any  States  other  than  the  States  of  New^  York  and  New  Jersey? 

Detective  Higgins.  He  said  that  was  about  the  area  that  he 
covered — New  Jersey  and  New  York. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Who  is  the  New  York  policeman  who  co- 
o])erated  with  vou? 


Detective  Higgins.  Lieutenant  Weiss  was  the  desk  officer  in  charge 
of  the  24th  squad,  and  Detective  Vincent  Satriano,  shield  No.  1646, 
24th  squad,  New  York  City. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  had  an  authorization  from  Bruckner  to 
come  over  and  pick  up  the  rest  of  this  ? 

Detective  Higgins.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefatts^er.  I  wanted  to  have  the  record  made  clear  that 
these  officers  worked  with  you. 

This  man  Bruckner  was  what  you  call  a  foot  peddler  ? 

Detective  Higgins.  That  is  all. 
'     Chairman  Kefauver.  Did  you  tell  how  much  profit  he  was  making 
every  week? 

Detective  Higgins.  About  $300  a  week  would  be  his  profit. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  that  what  he  said? 

Detective  Higgins.  That  is  what  he  claimed.  He  was  paying  $115 
for  a  room  in  the  hotel. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  $115  a  week? 

Detective  Higgins.  A  month. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  assume  the  hotel  didn't  know  what  his 
business  was? 

Detective  Higgins.  I  doubt  very  much  whether  they  did. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  would  like  to  give  them  the  benefit  of  the 
doubt.    He  was  paying  for  his  room  ? 

Detective  Higgins.  That  is  right,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Did  you  think  by  looking  at  the  way  he  lived 
that  is  probably  the  kind  of  money  he  was  making? 

Detective  Higgins.  I  would  sa}^  so. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Jago,  do  you  have  anything  else  to  add? 

Sergeant  Jago.  From  sitting  in  on  these  hearings,  and  during  the 
questioning  of  Bruckner — I  would  like  to  say  that  he  did  mention, 
as  the  inspector  from  Washington  mentioned  before,  this  fellow  Al 
Stone.  We  were  trying  to  find  out  who  were  the  big  men.  He  men- 
tioned Al  Stone,  and  gave  us  names  of  local  men  which  we  turned  over 
to  Mr.  Butler  of  your  committee. 

Chairman  Kefau^^er.  You  have  helped  Mr.  Butler  a  great  deal. 
Mr.  Butler  is  a  lieutenant  from  the  Dallas  Police  force,  and  he  was 
with  us  during  the  crime  investigations. 

Sergeant  Jago.  He  did  mention  Morris  Gillman.  As  far  as  his 
source  of  supply,  it  was  ]\Iorris  Gillman.  About  41  years  of  age,  1415 
Davidson  Avenue,  Bronx,  N.  Y.  If  he  needed  any  material  he  called 
Tremont  2-7940  from  the  Greystone  Hotel,  and  Mr.  Gilman  came 
down,  met  him  outside,  said  hello,  and  then  they  went  up  into  the 
room  and  did  the  business  so  far  as  transactions  of  material  were 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  us  get  the  telephone  number  correct. 

Sergeant  Jago.  TRemont  2-7940. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Anything  else,  Mr.  Jago? 

Mr.  Martin.  Is  that  the  same  Gillman  the  committee  has  under 
subpena  now  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  Yes. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  know  if  the  telephone  number  is  still  in  use? 

Sergeant  Jago.  No ;  I  wouldn't  know  whether  it  is  still  in  use  or  not. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  this  man  make  a  statement  he  had  ever  bought  mate- 
rial from  Al  Stone  ? 


Sergeant  Jago.  No.     It  was  hearsay  as  far  as  he  was  concerned. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Anything  else  'i 

Sergeant  Jago.  I  am  looking  at  our  report.  He  did  mention  another 
phone  number  that  he  contacted  in  Brooklyn,  who  also  supplied  him 
witli  material.  He  called  the  number  HYacinth  3-8636,  and  he  would 
ask  for  Joe.  Sometimes  he  would  get  Joe,  or  he  would  get  Joe's 
mother,  who  would  leave  word  with  Joe  to  call  Andy  at  the  hotel. 
This  number  was  traced  through  the  telephone  company,  and  it  was 
listed  to  a  John  Robbins,  residence  59  East  96th  Street,  Brooklyn,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  Martin.  Was  any  effort  ever  made  to  identify  this  Joe  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  In  Brooklyn  ? 

Mr.  Martin.  Yes, 

Sergeant  Jago.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Martin.  Were  you  able  to  obtain  any  information  as  to  the 
character  of  his  operation  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  Outside  of  Bruckner  saying  he  was  Mr.  Big. 

Mr.  Martin.  Did  Bruckner  also  tell  you  about  the  character  of  the 
car  he  was  driving,  or  anything  of  that  character  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  He  did  mention  that  he  had  a  Nash  car.  I  believe  he 
said  the  color  was  green. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  These  numbers  may  be  reassigned  to  someone 
else,  and  we  don't  want  to  cause  any  trouble.  I  will  have  to  order  these 
telephone  numbers  given  be  placed  in  executive  session  of  the  commit- 
tee, and  I  will  ask  the  cooperation  of  the  press  in  not  putting  the 
numbers  out.  They  may  be  asignecl  to  someone  else,  and  we  don't 
want  to  embarrass  anyone. 

Is  there  anything  else  ? 

Sergeant  Jago.  I  believe  that  is  all. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Higgins,  did  j-ou  have  any  observations 
to  make  ? 

Mr.  HiGGiNs.  Jago  did  a  good  job.     He  didn't  leave  much  for  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Whipple. 

Mr.  Whipple.  I  think  that  is  all. 

Chairman  Kefaua^er,  Tell  us  your  thoughts  of  what  the  Federal 
Government  can  do  to  help  this  problem. 

Mr.  Whipple.  It  is  my  considered  opinion  that  without  effective 
Federal  legislation,  dealing  as  you  and  I  know  with  the  interstate 
transportation  of  these  articles,  any  effort  at  the  community  level  or 
the  State  level,  of  course,  would  be  helpful ;  but  I  think  we  need  strin- 
gent Federal  legislation  with  very  severe  penalties. 

I  am  not  too  sure  consideration  shoiddn't  be  given  by  the  Congress 
to  maybe  install  some  sort  of  a  plan  like  we  have  with  the  Depart- 
ment of  Agriculture — having  these  sources  of  distribution  checked, 
to  see  what  kind  of  material  is  being  printed  and  sent  out  to  the 
various  buyers  of  these  materials. 

I  realize  there  might  be  constitutional  prohibitions  to  something 
like  that,  but  at  any  rate  I  think  the  Congress  should  go  to  work  im- 
mediately and  pass  stringent  legislation  dealing  with  the  interstate 
transportation  of  this  pornographic  material. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Well,  newspapers  and  magazines  that  have 
a  second-class  mail  permit  have  to  give  the  name  and  address  of  the 
publisher.  All  of  this  stuff'  that  you  are  talking  about,  I  have  ob- 
served that  none  of  it  has  any  name  of  where  it  is  published,  and  no 

65263—55 9 


responsibility  whatsoever  as  to  where  it  came  from.     That  would  at 
least  help  trace  it  down ;  wouldn't  it  ? 

Mr.  Whipple.  Yes,  it  would. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  shown  what  can  be  done  in  a  large 
city  by  community  interest  of  church  people.  I  think  that  is  an  ex- 
cellent example  that  I  hope  will  be  heard  all  around  the  Nation. 

Mr.  Whipple.  Thank  you,  Senator. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  want  again  to  compliment  you,  Mr.  Com- 
missioner, and  Mr.  Higgins  and  JSIr.  Jago,  and  those  who  have  worked 
with  you,  on  a  job  well  done,  which  I  have  heard  a  good  deal  about; 
and  also  to  point  out  what  I  am  sure  you  know,  that  if  you  relax  your 
efforts  you  will  have  the  problem  with  you  back  again. 

Mr.  Whipple.  Thank  you  very  much. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Thank  you  very  much,  gentlemen,  for  your 

We  will  have  a  10-minute  recess. 

(A  short  recess  was  taken.) 

Chairman  Kefalwer.  I  saw  Mr.  Younglove,  a  member  of  the  New 
York  Assembly,  here  a  little  while  ago.  He  is  also  a  member  of 
Mr.  Fitzpatrick's  committee. 

Mr.  Younglove,  would  you  come  up  and  sit  up  here  with  us?  We 
would  be  glad  to  have  you. 

( Mr.  Younglove  took  a  seat  at  the  bench. ) 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Bobo,  do  you  have  some  matter  you  wish 
to  present  at  this  time? 

Mr.  BoBo.  Yes,  Mr.  Chairman. 

I  would  like  to  correct  an  erroneous  impression  concerning  Mr.  Roy 
Aid,  who  was  subpenaed  by  this  subcommittee.  He  was  called  be- 
cause he  is  a  well-known  writer,  and  supplied  very  valuable  techni- 
cal information  to  the  subcommittee  stati'.  He  did  not  fail  to  answer 
his  subpena  but  reported  to  the  subcommittee's  office  and  not  in  the 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  will  be  glad  to  have  that  correction  made. 

Now,  who  is  our  next  witness  ? 

Mr.  I3oBO.  Lt.  Ignatius  Sheehan,  Chicago  Police  Department. 


Mr.  Bobo.  Lieutenant  Sheehan,  vour  first  name  is  spelled  I-g-n-a- 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  That  is  correct,  sir. 

Mr.  Bobo.  And  you  are  head  of  the  censor  squad  of  the  Chicago 
Police  Department ;  is  that  the  name  of  it  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBo.  How  long  have  you  been  head  of  the  censor  squad  of  the 
Chicago  Police  Department  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Since  1952. 

Mr.  BoBO.  For  how  many  years  have  you  been  connected  with  the 
Chicago  Police  Department  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Thirty-three  years. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Has  all  of  that  time  been  devoted  to  so-called  censor 
squad  vice  or  moral  squad? 


Lieutenant  Sheehan.  No,  sir.    The  last  4  years,  the  past  4  years. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  part  of  your  duties  as  head  of  the  censor  squad  the 
keeping  up  of  traffic  in  pornographic  literature  as  one  of  your  prime 
responsibilities  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  have  any  estimate  as  to  the  extent  of  what  the 
traffic  is  in  pornographic  material  in  the  city  of  Chicago? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Well,  that  would  be  hard  to  say.  It  is  from 
the  arrest  of  distributors  that  it  would  run  into  large  figures. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Lieutenant  Sheehan,  that  microphone  is  not 
for  the  room;  it  is  just  for  the  radio  or  television;  so  you  speak  up  so 
that  we  can  hear  you. 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  ;Most  of  this  business — and  you  are  familiar  with  the 
operations  of  those  dealing  in  pornography — is  a  surreptitious  bus- 
iness and  an  under-the-counter  business;  is  that  correct? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  been  able  in  your  dealings  with  those  selling 
pornographic  material,  to  determine  a  source  of  supply  for  those  you 
have  arrested  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  First,  how  big  did  you  say  the  business  was? 
I  suppose  Chicago  is  like  most  other  cities,  the  same  problem  every- 
where, even  in  rural  sections.    Is  it  big  business  in  Chicago? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir;  that's  right,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  A  lot  of  it  hard  to  keep  your  fingers  on  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes ;  it  is  a  tremendous  business. 

Mr.  BoBO.  The  type  of  pornography  with  which  you  have  come  in 
contact,  is  it  generally  the  type  of  pornography  that  has  been  de- 
scribed here  this  morning  by  the  other  police  officers? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  find  a  great  number  of  movie  film,  16-millimeter, 
35-millimeter,  and  8-millimeter  movie  film? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Mostly  16-millimeter  and  8-millimeter,  in  the 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Are  these  films  that  you  are  talking  of  movies 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Some  of  them ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  discovered  them  in  color  also  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  In  color  also. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Does  the  pornographic  traffic  in  Chicago  also  include 
the  deck  of  52  playing  cards,  the  4-by-5  French  novelty,  the  2-by-4 
comic-book  type,  plus  the  still  photos  in  color  and  black  and  white 
pictures  describing  all  acts  of  perversion? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Has  your  investigation  into  dealers  of  pornographic 
material  in  Chicago  shown  that  it  is  produced  in  that  city? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Has  your  investigation  revealed  where  the  pornographic 
literature  reaching  Chicago  comes  from? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Lieutenant  Sheelian,  I  believe  you  participated  in  the 
arrest  of  a  person  by  the  name  of  Frank  Mustari,  alias  Frank  Lano  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 


Mr.  BoBO.  On  what  date  was  Mr.  Mustari,  alias  Lano,  arrested? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  In  February  of  1954. 

Mr.  BoBO.  At  that  time  what  was  his  address  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  1356  North  Parkside  Avenue,  Chicago,  111. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  Mr.  Lano  presently  living  at  this  address  or  is  he 
incarcerated  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  No,  sir;  he  is  living  at  that  address. 

Mr,  BoBO.  When  you  arrested  INIr.  Lano  in  Chicago,  what  was  the 
type  of  pornography  which  he  had  in  his  possession  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  He  was  arrested  by  the  Oak  Park  Police  De- 
partment.  They  got  something  like  $15,000  worth  of  different  material. 

Mr.  BoBO.  That  included  films,  books,  pictures,  playing  cards? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  Mr.  Lano  reveal  to  either  you  or — were  you  engaged 
in  that  case,  Lieutenant  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Indirectly ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  participated  in  that  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  It  came  from  our  office. 

Chairman  KEFAimsR.  You  had  no  supervision  over  it;  is  that  it 2 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  Mr.  Lano,  or  did  your  investigation  reveal  where 
he  had  received  this  material  from? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Through  our  investigation;  yes.  Not  from 
Mr.  Mustari,  but  another  party. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Your  investigation  revealed  where  it  was  from.  Where 
was  that.  Lieutenant? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  From  New  York  City. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  your  investigation  reveal  from  whom  he  received 
it  in  the  city  of  New  York  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Who  is  that  person? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  A1  Stone,  alias  Abraham  Rubinstein,  alias 
Abraham  Rubin,  Ruben  Stone,  and  Stoney,  Ruben  AMiite.  Those  are 
his  aliases.     He  was  known  to  us  as  Al  Stone. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Known  to  the  Chicago  police  as  Al  Stone? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  your  investigation  show  how  Mr.  Lano  received  this 
material  from  Mr.  Stone? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  And  how  did  he  receive  this  material  from  Mr.  Stone? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Well,  they  will  come  to  New  York  City  and 
procure  a  hotel  room.  After  putting  their  car  in  a  designated 

Mr.  BoBo.  Do  you  have  the  name  of  that  designated  garage? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Continue,  please. 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Then  Lano  would  call  Al  Stone.  In  turn, 
Stone  would  pick  up,  or  have  Lano's  car  picked  up. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  have  the  number  at  which  he  would  call  Stone  ? 
Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Iveeauver.  The  number  will  be  treated  as  in  executive 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBo.  All  right,  sir.     Continue. 


Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Is  it  all  right  to  read  it  ? 

Mr.  BoBO.  Don't  read  tlie  number ;  no,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Give  the  subcommittee  the  number. 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Write  it  out  and  give  it  to  the  subcommittee. 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  I  think  the  subcommittee  has  it. 

Mr.  BoBO.  We  already  have  it. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  staff  will  furnish  the  number. 

Go  ahead.    We  will  call  it  No.  X. 

Mr.  Sheehan.  Shall  I  continue? 

Mr.  BoBO.  Yes,  sir;  go  right  ahead.    He  would  call  Mr.  Stone 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  And  Stone  would  have  his  car  picked  up. 
He  would  buy  about  $2,000  worth  of  material  from  Stone.  It  would 
be  put  in  his  car  and  his  car  delivered  back  to  the  garage.  Then  he 
would  pick  it  up  and  return  to  Chicago. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Was  there  any  value  put  on  this  $2,000  worth  of  material 
as  it  was  delivered  in  Chicago,  its  resale  value? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  was  the  value  of  each  carload? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Oh,  about  $5,000. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  Mr.  Lano  state  how  many  trips  he  made  between 
New  York  City  and  Chicago  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Well,  our  informant  did,  he  made  four  trips 
a  month. 

Mr.  BoBO,  He  would  average  approximately  $12,000  a  month,  con- 
sidering $3,000  profit  each  trip  and  4  trips  per  month? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir.  At  times  he  would  stop  off  and 
drop  off  a  load  at  Indianapolis  on  his  way  back. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Indianapolis,  Ind.  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  he  state  to  whom  he  would  drop  this  load  off,  or 
did  your  informant,  or  did  your  investigation  reveal  to  whom  he 
would  deliver  this  material  in  Indianapolis  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  No,  sir ;  he  did  not  give  us  the  name. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Lieutenant  Sheehan,  are  you  familiar  with  the  Fuller 
Brush  Man  series  of  comics — and  let  me  say  that  this  a  a  plagiarized 
name  from  the  Fuller  Brush  Co.. 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

]Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  have  any  information  as  to  who  the  originator 
and  chief  distributor  of  this  particular  type  of  pornographic  comic 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  A1  Stone  was  originally  reported  as  the 
original  printer  and  originator  of  this  Fuller  Brush  Man  porno- 
graphic type  of  literature. 

]\Ir.  BoBO.  This  particular  type  of  series  covered  all  types  of  sexual 
perversion  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehaist.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  a  comic  book  drawing  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Drawing ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  From  the  sources  of  information  available  to  you  as  head 
of  the  censor  board  of  the  Chicago  Police  Department,  do  you  have 
any  opinion  as  to  the  size  of  dealer  in  pornographic  material  that 
Mr.  Al  Stone  is? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  No,  sir ;  I  have  not. 


Mr.  BoBO.  Has  his  name  come  to  your  attention  in  any  other  case 
other  than  this  one? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Lieutenant,  did  you  also  take  part,  or  are  you  familiar 
with  the  arrest  of  Mr.  Clarence  Anderson  of  Elgin,  111.  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Was  that  raid  made  in  cooperation  with  the  Illinois 
State  Police? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  determine  during  the  course  of  this  investigation 
the  source  of  supply  for  this  particular  dealer  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Well,  he  was  a  printer — he  was  a  printer  and 
distributor  himself. 

Mr.  Bobo.  He  was  the  printer  and  distributor  and  publisher  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Himself;  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  was  one  of  the  big  sources  of  supply  in 
that  part  of  the  country  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  In  the  Middle  West,  yes. 

Mr.  BoBO.  During  the  raid  on  this  man  Anderson,  how  much  ma- 
terial, pornographic  material,  was  confiscated  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Well,  we  valued  it  at,  the  police  value,  at 
about  $25,000. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Did  it  consist  of  two  truckloads  of  material  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  size  trucks? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Well,  big  stake  trucks,  the  regular  large 
trucks ;  big  trucks. 

Mr.  BoBo.  In  this  particular  seizure  were  there  1,000  rolls  of  porno- 
graphic film  ?  , 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  Mr.  Anderson  process  this  film  himself  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Also  included  in  this  raid  were  there  1,500  rolls  of  porno- 
gra]ihic  film  which  had  not  yet  been  printed  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Well,  that  was  the  raw  film  that  had  not 
been — just  the  raw  film, 

JNIr.  BoBo.  It  had  never  been  taken  off? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  I  presume  that  was  what  he  had  it  for. 

JNIr.  Bobo.  Did  you  determine  during  this  investigation  where  the 
models  or  the  actors  in  these  pornographic  films  were  obtained? 

Lietenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Where  were  these  pictures  taken  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  One  was  taken  at  746  Oakwood  Boulevard. 
That's  tlie  Oakwood  Hotel.  On  the  South  Side  of  Chicago.  It  was 
taken  u]i  in  a  hotel  room. 

Mr.  BoBO.  These  people  would  just  rent  a  hotel  room  and  go  in 
there  with  their  equipment,  without  knowledge  of  the  hotel  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Well,  this  man  named  Edgar  Flagg. 

Mr.  BoBO.  How  do  you  spell  that,  F-1-a-g-g? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir;  F-1-a-g-g. 

Mr.  Bobo.  "Wliat  is  his  address ;  where  does  he  live  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  He  lives  at  746  Oakwood,  and  he  was  man- 
ager of  the  hotel. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Was  he  aware  of  the  fact  that  pornographic  films  were 
beinsf  taken  in  his  hotel? 


Lieutencant  Sheehan.  These  girls  said  that  he  took  the  pictures, 
that  Flagg  took  the  pictures. 

Mr.  Btmo.  He  took  the  pictures  and  in  turn  he  sold  them  to 
Anderson  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheeiian.  Either  that  or  he  sent  them  out  there  for 
processing.    That  is  how  we  got  them,  from  Anderson. 

Mr.  BoBO.  And  this  1,000  rolls  of  lewd  film,  were  some  of  them  of 
the  same  title  or  the  same  acting,  or  were  each  one  of  the  1,000  a 
different  film? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  They  were  different  film,  each  one.  They 
were  the  same  type  of  acts  of  perversion. 

Mr.  BoBO.  The  same  type  of  acting,  but  each  one  was  a  different 
subject  and  a  different  film? 

Lieutenant  Spieehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  BoBO.  Did  you  have  an  opportunity  to  view  any  of  this  film. 
Lieutenant  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Included  among  the  actors,  both  among  the  men  and 
the  women,  were  there  any  apparent  juveniles  as  actors  in  these 
films  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  the  records  at  the  time  at  which  you  raided  Mr. 
Anderson  show  that  Mr.  Anderson  had  bought  quantities  of  porno- 
graphic material  from  others,  or  did  he  produce  all  of  them? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Well,  I  would  say  some  of  it  was  sent  to  him 
through — produced  for  him.  They  would  take  the  original  film  and 
have  him  process  it  for  them. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  any  of  his  records  indicate  that  he  had  purchased 
material  from  a  person  by  the  name  of  Morris  and  a  person  by  the 
name  of  Eddie  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Were  there  any  other  identifying  marks' concerning  the 
men  Morris  and  Eddie  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  The  only  thing  was  Flint,  Mich. 

Mr.  BoBO.  The  name  of  Morris  and  the  name  of  Eddie  would  fit 
the  Michigan  notation? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  Mr.  Anderson  describe  to  you  or  identify  to  you 
who  Morris  and  Eddie  were? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Well,  he  said  they  were  the  same,  one  and  the 
same  person. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Just  going  under  different  names? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Different  names  wdien  they  buy;  and  that 
they  would  buy  from  him,  this  one  particular  Ecldie  and  Morris. 
Then  Morris  would  distribute  it  all  over  the  Middle  West. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  Anderson  give  you  any  idea  as  to  how  distribution 
was  made?  Was  it  made  through  the  mails,  through  Railway  Ex- 
press, or  through  private  conveyance? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Mostly  through  private  conveyance,  automo- 

Mr.  BoBO.  When  it  was  loaded  on  these  stake-body  trucks  was  it  just 
in  the  process  of  being  delivered  some  place,  at  a  distance  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  No.  It  was  all  loose  in  the  back  of  his  garage, 
in  his  garage. 


Mr.  BoBO,  The  trucks  were  in  his  garage  loaded  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  No,  sir;  it  wasn't  in — it  was  loose  in  his 
garage,  and  he  loaded  them  into  tracks. 

Mr.  BoBO.  During  this  investigation  did  you  determine  what  the 
wholesale  price  of  16-millimeter  film  was  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  And  what  price  was  what? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Well,  anywhere  from  $25  to  whatever  the 
traffic  would  allow,  and  that  he  would  charge.  But  that  was  the 

Mr.  BoBO.  That  is,  the  film  after  it  had  been  made  into  a  picture? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  And  he  would  sell  it  for  anything  the  traffic  would  bear, 
ranging  from  $25  up? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That  was  for  each  film? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  For  each  film. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  there  appear  to  be  any  type  of  connection  between 
dealers  and  buyers  in  this  film,  such  as  trading  in  one  roll  of  film  at  a 
reduced  price  for  a  new  roll  of  film? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir.  I  got  a  receipt  here  from  Ander- 
son's Film  Rental  Service,  where  Morris  bought  film  and  he  owed 
$659.     He  traded  in  other  film  back  to  him  of  $360. 

Mr.  BoBO.  That  would  more  than  balance  the  difference  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  that  be  made  an  exhibit,  Mr.  Anderson's 
firm  name  seems  to  be  Anderson's  Film  Rental  Service,  1047  Morton 
Avenue,  Elgin,  111.    Is  that  it? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir.  He  has  a  legitimate  film  store  in 
the  front.  In  the  back  in  his  garage  is  where  he  had  all  the  obscene 

(The  receipt  referred  to  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  11,"  and  is  as 


Exhibit  No.  11 

Anderson's  Film  Eental  Service 
elgin,  ill. 

Order  No 

Name :  Morris. 
Address:  Flint,  Mich. 

Oct.  27,  1952: 

Bouglit  goods $410 

Paid 100 

Balance 319 

Nov.  13,  1952: 

Goods 340 

Films  and  cash  ($275  in  films) 360 

Balance 299 

Dec.  18,  1952: 

Balance 77 

Paid  in  full. 


Mr.  BoBO.  In  addition  to  the  arrest  of  Anderson  in  this  case,  were 
any  other  persons  arrested  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir.  This  Edgar  Flagg,  I  spoke  about, 
that  took  the  pictures  up  in  the  hotel  room.  And  a  girl  named  The- 
resa Anderson,  Gene  Newton. 

Mr.  Bono.  Do  you  have  the  addresses  of  these  persons  ? 

Chairman  Kefauvek.  Well,  were  they  convicted  ? 

Lieutenant  Shi-^ehax.  No,  sir.  Flagg  was  convicted.  The  girls 
were  all  discharged. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  They  were  all  disciplined? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Did  they  plead  guilty  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  No  ;  but  they  testified  for  the  State. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  They  said  that  they  were  participants? 

Lieutentant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Suppose  you  leave  their  names  out. 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bono.  In  addition  to  the  film,  this  confiscation  also  included 
600  decks  of  pornographic  playing  cards? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  me  see  if  I  understand.  This  1,000  rolls 
of  films,  the  pictures  had  been  taken,  were  they  all  different  pictures? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Every  one  was  a  different  subject.  It  was  all 
on  the  same  pornographic  type. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  same  type,  but  each  one  was  a  differ- 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr,  CiiuMBRis.  Lieutenant,  from  those  couldn't  more  be  developed  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Oh,  thousands. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  As  many  as  you  wanted  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  He  could  keep  developing  as  many  as  he 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  right,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  sentence  did  Clarence  Anderson  receive  as  a  re- 
sult of  this  raid  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  He  received  2  years  probation. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Two  years  probation  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Has  he  come  to  your  attention  at  any  time  since  that  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO,  Was  he  again  caught  selling  pornographic  material  in 
Walworth  County,  Wis.  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

IVIr.  Bono.  What  was  the  charge  against  him  in  Walworth  Comity? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  He  was  charged,  he  was  arrested  on  Febru- 
ary 14,  1954,  charged  with  reckless  driving,  and  possession  of  obscene 
film.  He  was  fined  $750  and  costs,  and  the  films  were  destroyed  by 
the  order  of  the  court. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  me  see  if  I  understand  this  correctly. 
You  mean  this  first  operation,  with  all  this  material  about  which  you 
are  talking,  he  was  convicted  after  a  trial  in  court  and  given  2  years 
and  put  on  probation  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  In  what  court  was  that? 


Lieutenant  SnEEHAisr.  That  was  the  judge  of  the  county  court  of 
the  county  of  Geneva,  111.  It  wasn't  in  our  county  where  the  arrest 
was  made.     We  had  to  try  the  case  in  Geneva  County. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  were  down  there  during  the  trial? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  right. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Lieutenant  Sheehan,  are  you  also  familiar  with  a  case 
involving  a  Mr.  Sam  Atlas,  A-t-1-a-s? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBo,  Do  you  have  the  address  of  Mr.  Atlas  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  oiOl  Beach  Street,  Chicago,  111. 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  this  case,  can  you  give  me  the  approximate  retail 
value  of  the  material  seized,  pornographic  material  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes.  It  would  be  about,  around  $20,000  in 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  was  involved  in  this,  was  it  the  same  type  of 
material  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir ;  16-millimeter  motion-picture  films, 
all  motion  picture-printer  and  developing  tanks;  1,958  pages  of 
paper-bound  obscene  books;  800  obscene  photographs;  117  red  carton 
decks  of  obscene  playing  cards;  and  then  35  of  the  black  and  white 
obscene  playing  cards;  11  reels  of  8-millimeter  movie  film;  1  black 
plastic  viewer  with  15  obscene  poses  on  35  millimeter  film. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Prior  to  this  time  had  the  Chicago  police  department 
been  aware  of  any  large  scale  traffic  in  pornographic  literature? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  No,  sir;  not  to  any  great  extent. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  in  the  last  5  years  the  traffic 
in  pornographic  literature  has  greatly  increased? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  How  many  men  do  you  have  assigned  in  the  Chicago 
police  department  to  pornography  investigation  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  We  have  four  assigned  that  specialize  in 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  have  any  information  of  pornography  coming 
into  the  hands  of  children  of  school  age  or  younger  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  No,  sir ;  I  can't  say  that  I  do. 

ISIr.  BoBO.  No  case  has  ever  come  to  your  attention  where  a  child 
received  pornographic  literature  or  viewed  pornographic  literature  in 
any  manner  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  We  had  one  case  where,  I  think  he  was  a  12- 
year-old  boy,  came  to  school  and  he  had  1  card  of  a  52-deck,  obscene 
playing  card  deck.  The  principal  called  us  and  we  found  out  he  got 
it  from  his  grandfather;  that  he  lived  with  his  grandfather  and  he 
got  it  out  of  his  dresser  drawer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Lieutenant  Sheehan,  you  have  been  very  active  in  the 
Illinois  Legislature.  Would  you  have  any  recommendations  that  you 
would  make  to  make  the  traffic  in  pornography  more  difficult  ? 

Mr.  Sheehan.  You  mean  from 

Mr.  BoBO.  From  the  Federal  viewpoint. 

Chairman  KE^AU^^ER.  Tell  what  he  tried  to  do  in  the  Legislature  of 
Illinois  this  year. 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  We  asked  for  a  bill,  which  is  now  in  the  leg- 
islature, making  it  a  violation  to  sell  to  minors,  any  boy  or  girl  under 
18  years  of  age. 


Chairman  Kefauver.  Making  it  a  felony  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  No,  sir ;  a  misdemeanor — not  on  pornography, 
on  girlie  books  and  these  pocket-sized  books.  That  was  what  they 
were  doing  in  Springfield.   We  got  the  law  on 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  got  the  law  passed  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  No,  sir.     It  is  pending  now  in  the  legislature. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  legislature  is  still  in  session  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  have  a  copy  of  the  bill  you  proposed  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  it  be  filed  as  an  exhibit. 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  I  have  a  copy  of  my  statement  before  the 

Chairman  Kefau^^er.  All  right,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Lieutenant  Sheehan,  in  view  of  your  experience  in  the 
Anderson  case,  where  such  a  large  quantity  of  this  material  was  seized 
that  had  moved  both  intrastate  and  in  interstate  traffic,  as  a  policeman 
would  it  not  be  helpful  to  you  if  the  degree  of  the  offense  was  not 
raised  from  a  misdemeanor  to  a  felony  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Oh,  it  would  help  us  an  awful  lot.  The  best 
sentence  we  ever  got  was  where  a  jail  sentence  was  proAnded  of  6 
months  in  the  county  jail.  You  can  either  fine,  or  6  months  in  the 
county  jail.     It  is  just  a  misdemeanor  in  the  State  of  Illinois  now. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Usually  it  amounts  to  nothing  more  than  a  small  fine, 
which  is  practically  a  license  to  operate? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Nine  out  of  every  10  is  a' fine. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Lieutenant  Sheehan,  is  there  anything  else 
that  you  want  to  tell  that  would  be  helpful  to  the  committee? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  I  think  I  covered  everything  I  recall. 

Mr.  Martin.  I  have  a  question.  Senator,  if  I  may. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Yes. 

Mr.  Martin.  Lieutenant  Sheehan,  I  notice  in  examining  this  Atlas 
inventory  here,  that  included  in  the  seizure  was  one  .45  caliber  auto- 
matic pistol,  Army  Colt,  with  clip  and  several  rounds  of  ammunition. 
I  woncler  if  you  could  shed  any  light  on  that  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  No;  I  cannot.  He  was  given  the  gun  back 
bv  order  of  the  court.  He  showed  where  he  owned  it  and  was  entitled 
to  it. 

Mr.  Martin.  In  connection  with  Sam  Atlas,  there  is  a  record  here, 
too,  of  a  peddler  who  went  to  the  house  and  obtained  some  material. 
One  Walter  Liepert,  stuff  that  was  confiscated  from  his  car  included 
three  rifles. 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Well,  he  claimed  he  was  hunting;  they  were 
hunting  rifles. 

Mr.  Martin.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Lieutenant,  Anderson  was  placed  on  probation  in  a 
court  in  Illinois ;  is  that  correct  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Then  after  he  was  put  on  probation  he  went  into 
Wisconsin ;  is  that  correct  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  And  while  in  Wisconsin  he  was  apprehended,  ar- 
rested, convicted,  and  placed  on  probation  again  in  Wisconsin  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir. 


Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  have  any  information  as  to  whether  the 
Wisconsin  court  was  advised  of  the  probation  in  Illinois? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  No,  sir.  Of  course  we  knew  about  it  when 
we  wrote — I  believe  it  was  in  the — we  read  it  in  our  newspapers  where 
he  had  been  arrested  and  convicted  up  in  Walworth,  and  we  wrote  to 
the  sheriff  up  there,  and  he  verified  it. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  have  any  information  that  the  State's 
attorney  in  Illinois  contacted  the  State's  attorney  in  Wisconsin  in 
this  matter  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  It  would  be  a  breach  of  parole  would  if  not 
if  he  was  caught  the  second  time  ? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  It  would.  Our  State's  attorney  wrote  the 
judge  of  Geneva,  111.,  Geneva  County,  and  told  him  about  the  arrest 
in  Wisconsin,  and  how  he  violated  his  probation,  but  we  never  heard 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Anderson  is  still  out? 

Lieutenant  Sheehan.  Yes,  sir ;  he  is  still  in  business. 

Chairman  Kefau^^er.  Thank  you  very  much.  Lieutenant  Sheehan. 
We  appreciate  your  cooperation  with  our  subcommittee.  Thank  you 
for  coming  here  to  testify. 

Who  is  our  next  witness,  Mr.  Bobo? 

]\Ir.  Bobo.  Sgt.  Joseph  E.  Brown. 


(Sergeant  Brown  was  sworn  b}^  the  chairman.) 

Chairman  Kefau^ter.  You  may  proceed,  Mr.  Bobo. 

Mr.  Bobo.  You  are  Sgt.  Joseph  E.  Brown,  of  the  Detroit  Police 
Department  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  Yes,  sir. 

Cliairman  Kefaua-er.  Sergeant  Brown,  you  are  a  great  big  man. 
Will  you  speak  loudly  so  everybody  can  hear ;  will  you,  sir  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  How  long  have  you  been  with  the  Detroit  Police  Depart- 
ment, sir? 

Sergeant  Brown.  Since  October  15, 1945. 

Mr.  Boiio.  At  the  present  time  what  is  your  duty  assignment? 

Sergeant  Brown.  I  am  the  sergeant  assigned  to  the  censorship 
bureau  of  the  police  department. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Included  in  that  responsibility  is  books,  magazines, 
movies,  night  clubs,  and  pornographic  literature  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Would  one  of  the  primary  duties  which  you  have  be  the 
enforcement  of  the  laws  regarding  pornography  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  Yes,  sir.  That  is  one  of  the  most  important 
functions  of  the  bureau.  The  separation  of  obscene  literature  and  the 
apprehension  and  conviction  of  the  people  that  deal  in  it. 

Mr.  BoB(j.  Sergeant  Brown,  has  it  ever  come  to  your  attention  in 
Detroit  as  to  whether  or  not  pornographic  material  is  coming  into  the 
hands  of  juveniles? 


Sergeant  Brown.  I  can  think  of  no  specific  instance  where  it  has 
come  into  the  hands  of  juveniles.  If  it  has,  it  woukl  be  an  isolated 

Now  I  am  speaking  of  out-and-out  pornography,  with  which  the 
subcommittee  has  been  dealing,  I  presume. 

Mr.  BoBO.  This  is  usually  a  very  clandestine  type  of  operation.  You 
do  not  deal  with  the  juvenile  squad  yourself,  do  you? 

Sergeant  Browx.  No,  sir.  We  have  a  youth  bureau  in  the  police 
department  that  has  been  in  function  about  3  or  4  years,  established 
by  the  police  commissioner.  They  deal  primarily  with  juvenile  prob- 
lems in  the  city  of  Detroit. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Sergeant  Brown,  on  May  18,  1953,  did  you  have  an 
occasion  to  arrest  a  person  by  the  name  of  Al  Stone  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  I  did. 

Mr.  BoBO.  For  what  was  his  arrest? 

Sergeant  Brown.  For  possession  of  obscene  movie  film. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  have  the  address  of  that  man,  Al  Stone  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  The  address  that  he  gave  at  the  time  of  his  appre- 
hension was  1639  41st  Street,  Brooklyn,  N.  Y.  That  was  what  the 
driver's  license  indicated  was  his  address. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  he  have  other  aliases? 

Sergeant  Brown.  He  was  known  as  Al  Stone.  The  operator's 
license  was  issued  to  Abraham  Rubin. 

Mr.  BoBO.  How  do  you  spell  it  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  R-u-b-i-n.  Those  are  the  two  names  that  I  know 
Mr.  Stone  by. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  have  his  record  that  would  indicate  any  other 

Sergeant  Brown.  I  have  a  record  here  from  the  Detroit  Police 
Department,  Al  Stone,  mug  No.  109385,  showing  10  arrests.  At  the 
time  of  these  arrests,  they  were  all  Abraham  Rubin. 

Mr.  BoBO.  All  going  under  the  name  of  Abraham  Rubin  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  When  he  was  arrested  in  Detroit  on  May  18,  1953,  what 
did  you  say  he  had  in  his  possession  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  read  from  the  police  record.  Is 
that  the  official  document  there? 

Sergeant  Brown.  Yes,  sir.  That  is  the  request  for  a  warrant,  Mr. 
Chairman,  that  was  drawn  up. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  these  arrests,  is  that  on  your  official  rec- 
ord there  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Will  you  file  that  so  we  can  have  that  as  a 
part  of  our  record?     You  also  have  his  photograph  there? 

Sergeant  Brown.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  will,  then,  be  filed  as  exhibits. 

Sergeant  Brown.  Yes,  sir. 

(The  information  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  12,"  and  is  on  file  with 
the  subcommittee.) 

Chairman  KEFx\u^^E'R.  Where  were  these  arrests? 

Sergeant  Brown.  The  one  arrest  was  in  Detroit. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Where  were  these  others  on  the  record? 

Sergeant  Brown.  Starting  chronologically.  In  1928,  New  York 
City.     The  charge  was  rape.     He  was  discharged. 


1930,  New  York  City.     Reckless  driving.     30  days. 

1932,  in  Poughkeepsie,  N.  Y.  The  charge  was  possession  of  ob- 
scene literature.     Six  months,  suspended  sentence. 

In  1933,  Darien,  Conn.  Possession  of  obscene  pictures.  Sentenced 
to  a  fine  of  $250  and  costs,  and  6  months  in  jail.  The  jail  term,  I 
believe,  was  SS.     I  think  that  indicates  suspended  sentence. 

1933,  in  Buffalo,  N.  Y.  There  is  a  number  here,  I  don't  know  what 
the  number  indicates.  It  is  1141-P.  L.,  it  is  apparently  a  law  num- 
ber. He  received  3  months  in  the  Erie  County  Penitentiary,  that's 
Erie  County,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  BoBO.  For  the  record,  that  1141-P.  L.  is  the  Obscene  Statute  of 
the  State  of  New  York 

Sergeant  Browx.  I  was  not  aware  of  that,  1141-P.  L.  is  the  way 
it  is  indicated  on  the  record. 

And  in  1939,  Erie  County — no ;  that's  the  same  record,  I  am  sorry. 
It  refers  to  the  above-mentioned  arrest. 

In  1934,  in  Albany,  N.  Y.,  possession  of  obscene  pictures.  Seventy- 
five  dollar  fine  or  30  days  in  Albany  County  Jail. 

1934,  in  Providence,  R.  I.,  possession  of  indecent  literature.  Thirty 
days  in  the  Providence  County  Jail. 

1934,  in  Howard,  R.  I.,  possession  of  obscene  pictures.  Sentenced 
to  30  days  and  costs.  May  18,  1953,  Detroit,  Mich.,  possession  of 
obscene  literature,  $100  fine  and  90  days  imprisonment  in  the  Detroit 
House  of  Correction. 

Mr,  Bobo.  Wlien  he  was  arrested  in  Detroit  he  had  558  rolls  of 
obscene  movies  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  That  is  right.  Five  f  undred  and  fifty -eight  rolls 
of  motion-picture  film,  consisting  of  501  8-millimeter,  and  57  16-milli- 
meter prints.  Of  these  reels,  they  were  pornography,  per  se,  each 
and  every  one. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Showing  all  types  of  sexual  perversion  ? 

Sergeant  Brown,  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Did  you  also  find  on  Mr.  Stone,  alias  Rubin,  an  address 

Sergeant  Brown  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bobo,  Listed  in  this  address  book,  who  was  listed  in  this  address 
book,  Sergeant  ? 

Chairman  Ivefauver.  Well,  let's  see  about  that,  now. 

Let  the  address  book  be  in  executive  session,  but  you  can  tell  where 
connections  are  made  in  the  address  book. 

Sergeant  Brown.  New  Orleans,  La.;  Utica,  N.  Y.;  Philadelphia, 
Pa. ;  Syracuse,  N.  Y. ;  Utica,  N.  Y. ;  Brooklyn,  N.  Y. ;  Brooklyn,  N.  Y. ; 
New  York  City;  Philadelphia,  Pa.;  Chicago,  111.;  Chicago,  111.;  Chi- 
cago. 111.;  Bellaire,  Ohio;  Jacksonville,  Fla.;  St.  Louis,  Mo.;  Pitts- 
burgh, Pa.;   Harrisburg,  Pa.:  New  Orleans,  La.;   Chelsea,  Mass. 
Chicago,  111.;  Sheffield,  Ala,;  St.  Louis,  Mo;  Columbus,  Ohio;  Lan- 
caster, Ohio;  Jacksonville,  Fla.;  Louisville,  Ky.;  Pittsburgh,  Pa.: 
Gettysburg,  Pa.;  Scranton,  Pa.;  Washington,  D,  C;  Indianapolis 
Ind. ;  Pittsburgh,  Pa. ;  Marbury,  Md. ;  Pittsburgh,  Pa. ;  Chicago,  111. : 
Detroit,  Mich.;  Louisville,  Ky.;  Indianapolis,  Ind.;   Birmingham 
Ala.;  Rome,  Ga.;  Birmingham,  Ala.;  Atlanta,  Ga.;  Linton,  Ind. 
Flint,  Mich.;  St,  Louis,  Mo,;  New  Orleans,  La,;  Baltimore,  Md. 
Reading,  Pa, ;  Richmond,  Va, ;  Salisbury,  N.  C. 


Now,  there  are  other  names  with  those  numbers  indicated  in  those 
cities  listed. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Were  any  of  the  persons  listed  on  that  list  known  to  you 
to  be  dealei-s  in  pornographic  material  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  Yes,  sir.  The  Bizon  Sales,  12th  Street  and  Pin- 
gree  in  Detroit,  Mich.  The  proprietor  of  that  establishment  has  twice 
been  convicted  of  the  sale  and  possession  of  obscene  literature  in  the 
city  of  Detroit.  The  first  time  he  received  a  fine  of  either  $90  or  $100 
under  the  misdemeanor.  On  the  second  offense  we  prosecuted  this 
defendant  under  a  statute  that  we  have  in  Michigan,  making  the  sec- 
ond offense  a  high  misdemeanor,  which  is  punishable  by  $500  fine  or 
a  year  in  the  House  of  Correction.  He  was  convicted  of  the  second 
offense  and  was  fined  $100  or  1  year. 

1  might  also  add  at  this  time,  if  I  may,  that  in  the  State  of  Michigan 
under  our  statutes  753-43,  under  which  we  operate,  the  obscenity 
statute,  the  third  offender,  upon  conviction,  or  the  third  offense  is 
treated  as  a  felony,  and  we  have  1  defendant  that  was  convicted  about 
3  or  4  weeks  ago,  or  he  was  convicted  about  3  or  4  months  ago  under 
the  second  offense  of  the  act.     He  received  10  months  probation. 

One  of  the  officers  from  our  bureau  made  another  purchase  of  ob- 
scene material  about  a  month  ago  from  this  defendant.  He  was  imme- 
diately ordered  at  a  probation  hearing  to  serve  10  months  in  the  Detroit 
House  of  Correction,  and  he  will  then  be  tried  in  felony  court  as  a  third 

Mr.  BoBo.  Was  there  also  taken  from  ]Mr.  Stone  at  this  time  a  road 
map  showing  the  route  that  he  had  covered  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Just  a  minute,  before  you  get  to  that. 

Sergeant  Brown,  the  names  in  the  address  book  that  you  investi- 
gated turned  out  to  be  pornographic  dealers ;  is  that  not  so  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  Yes,  sir.  This  one  name  in  particular,  Mr.  Chair- 
man, was 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  Mr.  Chumbris  who  gave  the  story 
about  Lou  Saxton  in  Pittsburgh,  who  was  a  dealer,  in  his  testimony 
the  day  before  yesterday.  Do  you  have  Lou  Saxton  as  one  of  the 
names,  from  Pittsburgh  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  There  was  a  name  listed,  Mr.  Chairman,  as  Lou, 
Pittsburgh,  Pa.    No  address  showing  and  no  last  name  showing. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Then  do  you  have  listed  a  Japloski  who  has 
been  convicted  in  St.  Louis?  We  have  a  record  of  him  distributing- 
lewd  literature,  but  he  resides  in  Jacksonville,  Fla.  Is  his  name 

Sergeant  Brown.  What  was  the  name  again,  Mr.  Chairman? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Japloski. 

Sergeatn  Brown.  T\^iat  was  the  first  name  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Stanley  Japloski. 

Sergeant  Brown.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  a  Stanley  listed,  Jackson- 
ville, Fla.,  no  last  name. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  have  his  address  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  No;  there  is  a  notation,  numerals  is  all  that  is 

Now,  should  I  read  the  numerals  ?  There  is  no  indication — it  pre- 
sumably is  a  phone  number,  although  there  is  no  exchange  listed,  it  is 
merely  numerals. 


Mr.  Chumbris.  If  you  "will  look  further  on  that  list  you  will  find 
another  reference  to  Jacksonville,  Fla.,  that  might  indicate  that  name. 

Sergeant  Brown  (complying).  Yes.  On  further  observation  I  find 
a  Stanley,  no  last  name  listed,  in  Jacksonville,  Fla.,  on  Washtonian 
Street.     It  is  3510  Washtonian  Street. 

Chairman  IvErAu%"ER.  Proceed,  ISIr.  Bobo. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  have  any  reference  to  Anderson  in  Elgin,  111  ? 

Chairman  Kefau^^er.  He  did  not  read  Elgin. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Sergeant,  while  you  are  checking  that  also,  would  you 
see  if  you  have  one  listed  Eddie  in  New  York  City  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  With  no  address  given  ?  It  is  on  the  part  of  the  list,  I 
think.  Sergeant,  that  does  not  have  the  addresses,  and  so  forth,  the 
bottom  part  of  the  list. 

Sergeant  Brown.  I  see  in  the  second  group  an  Eddie  listed  just  as 
that,  no  last  name  given. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  a  telephone  number  given  ? 

Just  keep  the  telephone  number  in  executive  session. 

Sergeant  Brown.  Yes,  sir.     I  presume  that  that  is  a  phone  number. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  that  the  same  number  we  had  here  a  little 
while  ago  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  I  don't  recall  the  other  number.  You  mean  in  my 
testimony,  Mr.  Chairman  ? 

Chairman  Kefau\'er.  No  ;  in  somebody  else's  testunony. 

Sergeant  Brown.  Not  to  ni}^  knowledge. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Sergeant,  do  you  have  any  suggestion  or  any  comments 
you  might  want  to  make  on  pornographic  literature  ? 

You  also  confiscated  from  Mr.  Stone  at  the  time  of  his  arrest  a 
roadmap  showing  the  route  covered  by  him  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  Here  is  a  roadmap  that  was  taken  by  me  from  the 
automobile,  or  the  glove  compartment  of  his  automobile  at  the  time  of 
his  arrest  [exhibiting]. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Does  he  have  his  route  marked  where  he  had 
been  going  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  Mr.  Chairman,  it  has  a  route  marked  fi'om  the 
city  of  New  York  to  Philadelphia,  to  Harrisburg,  Pa. ;  Pittsburgh, 
Pa.:  Akron,  Ohio;  Toledo,  Ohio:  Detroit,  Mich.;  Fort  Wayne,  Ind.; 
Indianapolis,  Ind.;  St.  Louis,  Mo.;  Louisville,  Ky. ;  Charleston, 
W.  Va.;  into  Richmond,  Va.  It  terminates  at  Richmond,  Va.,  the 
markings  on  the  map. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  this  map  over  here  [indicating],  showing  the  interstate 
connections  of  Al  Stone,  alias  Rrtbin.  does  that  indicate  the  cities  which 
3^ou  have  marked  there,  some  of  the  cities? 

Sergeant  Brown.  I  would  say  that  it  indicates  a  great  many  of  them, 
from  my  observation  from  the  chair  here,  counsellor. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  it  also  a  composite  of  the  cities  listed  in  his  addi'ess 

Sergeant  Brown.  To  a  great  extent :  yes. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Thank  you,  Sergeant.    That  is  all. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Sergeant,  you  do  have  a  big  program  in  De- 
troit to  stamp  out  this  business,  do  you  not? 

Sergeant  Brown.  Yes,  sir,  Mr.  Chairman.  I  would  like  to  bring 
out  a  couple  of  the  highlights  of  that  program  that  we  have  in  Detroit. 

We  have  a  great  many  active  groups,  PTA,  the  church,  and  fraternal 


organizations.  We  coopei-ate  very  closely  with  them,  and  they  with  us. 
We  go  out  and  make  public  speeches  to  these  people.  We  try  to  keep 
in  very  close  contact.  We  feel  that  in  that  way  we  get  a  firsthand 
viewpoint  from  the  parents  of  what's  going  on. 

Now,  last  Tuesday  night,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  spoke  to  a  PTA  group  in 
Detroit  that  consisted  of  850  parents.  They  were  aware  that  I  had 
been  subpenaed  here  by  this  committee  to  delve  into  some  of  the 
problems  of  the  juvenile  delinquency  question,  and  the  problems  of 
obscene  literature;  and  they  are,  I  understand,  anxiously  awaiting  a 
report  of  your  findings  and  the  corrections  that  can  be  made. 

Now,  we  do  feel  in  the  State  of  Michigan  that  the  statute  covering 
obscenity  is  a  very  good,  strong  statute ;  it  is  750,  section  343.  Under 
this  statute,  as  I  mentioned  previously,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  to 
point  out  again,  on  the  first  arrest  and  conviction  it  is  a  misdemeanor. 
The  second  arrest  is  treated  as  a  high  misdemeanor. 

Now,  on  an  ordinary  misdemeanor  it  is  punishable  by  90  days  in  the 
house  of  correction  or  $100  fine;  the  second  offense  is  punishable  by  a 
year  in  the  Detroit  House  of  Correction  or  a  $500  fine ;  and  the  third 
offense  is  treated  as  a  felony,  and  it  is  punishable  by  State  prison. 

We  have  had  very  good  success,  we  have  had  a  great  amount  of 
cooperation  from  the  prosecuting  attorney's  office,  from  all  the  judges 
in  recorder's  court.    They  are  backing  us  100  percent  on  this  problem. 

We  had  one  judge  there,  I  had  3  cases  before  him  in  the  last  6 
weeks,  and  that  is  first  offenders. 

Chairman  Kefauvek.  Is  that  Judge  George  Edwards  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  No.  George  Edwards  is  in  the  probate  court  of 
juvenile,  and  a  very,  very  capable  judge  by  the  way,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  know  him. 

Sergeant  Brown.  Judge  Shimansky  has  a  standing  policy  there 
that,  upon  conviction,  it  is  automatically  60  days  in  the  house  of 
correction  and  a  year's  probation. 

We  feel  that  that  law  has  teeth  in  it,  but  we  would  also  like  to 

Chairman  Kefauver.  When  was  that  law  passed? 

Sergeant  I^rown.  That  was  amended  in  19 — it  was  passed,  I  believe, 
in  1935,  and  I  believe  it  was  amended  in  1953,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Has  the  traffic  in  Detroit  gone  down  since 
you  had  that  law  amended  and  you  have  been  enforcing  it  more 
vigorously  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  We  feel  that  the  traffic  has  greatly  decreased. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Tell  us  a  little  more  about  the  splendid  inter- 
est and  activity  of  the  PTA  men  and  women  and  civic  clubs  and  others 
in  Detroit,  Sergeant  Brown. 

Sergeant  Brown.  Well,  as  I  mentioned  before,  these 

Chairman  Kefauver.  How  many  people  are  participating? 

Sergeant  Brown.  Well,  it  would  be  hard  to  say,  but  it  would  be 
a  very,  very  great  number  of  organizations,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Each  in  their  own  neighborhood? 

Sergeant  Brown.  Each  in  their  own  neighborhood. 

They  have  a  program — before  I  mention  this,  in  answer  to  your 
question  there,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  to  mention  that  under 
this  law  in  the  State  of  Michigan — now,  this  is  getting  away  from 

65263 — 55 10 


pornographj'  just  a  little  bit,  but  I  think  I  would  like  to  touch  on  it 
if  it  is  permissible. 

These  pocket-sized  and  these  cheesecake  books,  cheesecake  and  girlie 
magazines,  when  these  books  come  into  the  city  of  Detroit,  we  have 
such  cooperation  from  the  two  large  distributors  that  they  volun- 
tarily submit  each  and  every  one  of  these  pocket  books  to  the  censor 
bureau  for  screening.  We  have  a  staff  of  13  men.  They  screen  these 
books,  and  if  they  find  obscene  passages,  or  anything  of  a  filthy  nature, 
w^e  immediately  submit  it  to  our  legtij  counsel,  the  prosecuting  attor- 
ney of  the  county.  He  gives  us  a  legal  opinion,  and  if  it  is  a  viola- 
tion of  the  law  he  sends  us  a  letter,  1  for  our  files  and  another  1 
for  the  distributor,  that  if  distribution  is  made  on  that  book  in  the 
city  of  Detroit  or  in  the  county  of  Wayne,  that  prosecution  will  result. 

Now,  as  a  result  of  this  action,  we  have  withheld  between  four  and 
five  hundred  separate  titles  of  these  pocket  books  in  the  city  of  Detroit 
in  the  last  5  years.  Each  one  of  these  titles  in  the  city  of  Detroit  alone 
would  enjoy  a  circulation  of  approximately  five  to  ten  thousand. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Each  one  of  these  what? 

Sergeant  Browx.  Each  one  of  these  books,  each  title,  each  separate 
title  would  enjoy  a  circulation  of  from  five  to  ten  thousand  in  the  city 
of  Detroit  alone. 

Chairman  Kefaux^er.  But  they  are  not  circulated  ? 

Sergeant  Brown,  No,  sir, 

Wlien  the  prosecuting  attorney  rules  that  they  are  in  violation  of  the 
law,  the  distributor  is  notified,  there  is  no  distribution  made  in  the 

Now,  we  had  a  test  case  just  a  year  ago  now  on  one  of  these  pocket 
books  in  recorder's  court,  and  we  were  sustained.  There  was  a  convic- 
tion obtained. 

Now,  it  is  my  understanding  at  the  present  time  that  this  case  is 
being  appealed  to  the  Michigan  State  Supreme  Court. 

Chairman  Kefauver,  Sergeant  Brown,  then  in  our  horror  and  crime 
comic-book  hearing,  we  ran  into  a  situation  where  some  news  dealers 
were  forced  to  take  a  whole  range  of  things  in  order  to  get  the  better 
magazines;  they  had  to  take  some  horror  comics  and  they  had  to 
take  some  literature  that  is  not  so  good,  and  that  it  was  a  pretty 
difficult  position  in  which  they  were  placed.  They  would  lose  their 
license  if  they  did  not  take  all  those  things,  and  yet  they  did  not  want 
to  sell  them  on  many  occasions. 

However,  your  news  dealers  are  cooperating  and  just  turning  them 
back ;  is  that  it  ? 

Sergeant  Browx.  That  is  correct. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  think  you  call  that  tie-in  sales? 

Sergeant  Browx.  I  believe  that  would  be  the  term. 

Mr.  Chujmbris.  Sergeant,  I  believe  you,  or  members  of  your  staff, 
went  to  the  city  just  northeast  of  Detroit  last  year  and  testified  before 
a  grand  jury  on  some  of  these  particular  problems  to  clean  up  the 

Sergeant  Browx,  The  city  of  Port  Huron.  Inspector  Case  was  up 
there  in  an  advisory  capacity. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  I  understand  they  have  quite  a  progrom  up  there  to 
clean  up  these  pin-up  magazines,  like  Eye;  is  that  correct? 

Sergeant  Browx.  I  can't  testify  too  much  about  that  program;  I 
am  not  too  familiar  with  the  Port  Huron  program. 


Chairman  KEFAin'ER,  Sergeant  Brown,  we  thank  you  very  much 
for  coming  here. 

Sergeant  Brown,  Mr.  Chairman,  one  more  point.  I  would  like  to 
tell  you  at  this  time  that,  speaking  for  myself  and  the  police  depart- 
ment of  the  city  of  Detroit,  and  the  citizens  of  the  city  of  Detroit,  we 
would  like  to  see  some  sort  of  Federal  legislation  passed  that  would  put 
teeth  in  tlie  law  to  keep  this  smut  from  being  distributed  by  any  means, 
whether  it  is  in  an  automobile  or  carried  across  the  State  lines,  or  by 
any  means.    That's  what  we  are  all  in  hope  of. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  is  what  all  the  people  who  are  work- 
ing with  you  on  this  want  done  ? 

Sergeant  Brown.  That  is  what  they  w^ant  done. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  tell  them  that  we  appreciate  their  recom- 
mendation and  their  activity,  and  the  report  that  we  have  from  you. 

Sergeant  Brown.  Thank  you  very  much. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Bair,  we  aren't  going  to  get  to  finish  you 
before  noon,  but  come  around  and  let  us  have  your  testimony.  We 
are  going  to  adjourn  in  about  10  minutes. 

(Mr.  Bair  was  sworn.) 


Chairman  Kefauver.  Proceed,  Mr.  Bobo. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Mr.  Bair,  you  are  Mr.  Robert  R.  Bair,  B-a-i-r  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  are  assistant  United  States  attorney  from  the  dis- 
trict of  Maryland  ? 

Mr  Bair.  That  is  right,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Baltimore,  Md.  ?  How  long  have  you  been  w^itli  the 
United  States  attorney's  office  in  Baltimore? 

Mr.  Bair.  Since  September  1954. 

Mr.  BoBO.  And  your  duties  in  that  office  are  to  prepare  and  present 
cases  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  That  is  correct,  sir.  Enforcing  the  laws  of  the  Federal 

Mr.  BoBO.  Were  you  the  person  in  the  office  of  the  United  States 
attorney  in  Baltimore  who  prepared  the  case  against  Herman  Solomon 
and  Saul  Norman  Daymont  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  I  am. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Louis  Passetti  and  Ruby  Martin  Tayfoia  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  That  was  a  case  involving  what,  Mr.  Bair  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  That  was  a  case  involving  the  depositing  with  the  Rail- 
way Express  Agency  for  shipment  in  interstate  commerce  of  certain 
obscene,  lewd,  and  lascivious  photographs. 

Chairman  Kefau\tr.  Mr.  Bair,  this  map  here  on  the  left  was  made, 
I  believe,  from  the  evidence  worked  up  and  brought  out  by  you  in 
this  case? 

Mr.  Bair.  That  is  correct.     That  evidence  was  available  to  us. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  is  a  so-called  "Soloday"  operation  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kep^auver.  I  want  to  say  just  as  we  close,  as  we  recess  for 
lunch,  that  I  know  of  the  security  in  this  case,  and  I  think  this  is  one 


of  the  most  important  decisions  enabling  enforcement  agencies  and  the 
courts  to  get  at  this  problem  that  we  have  ever  had  in  the  field  of  inde- 
cent and  pornographic  literature. 

Many  prosecutor  all  over  the  Nation  are  awaiting  the  outcome  of  the 
trial  of  this  case  that  you  have  concluded,  and  it  is  a  very  important 
case.  We  want  you  to  take  some  little  time  in  describing  the  opera- 
tions, just  what  was  involved  in  the  case. 

You  will  continue  with  your  testimony  right  after  our  recess  for 
the  lunch  period. 

The  subcommittee  will  stand  in  recess  until  1 :  30. 

(Whereupon,  at  12  noon,  a  luncheon  recess  w^as  taken  until  1 :  30 


Cliairman  Kefau\T3R.  We  will  resume  Avith  the  testimony  of  Mr. 
Bair.     All  right,  Mr.  Bobo,  proceed. 

Mr.  Bono,  The  operations  which  we  were  discussing  before  the 
recess  was  the  operation  "Soloday"  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  That  is  correct.  The  address  was  3500  Harford  Road, 
Baltimore,  Md. 

Mr.  BoBO.  When  did  this  case  originate? 

Mr.  Bair.  The  FBI  in  Baltimore  received  an  anonymous  letter 
about  August  4,  1953,  and  it  was  from  somebody  out  in  San  Francisco 
who  stated  that  there  were  two  men  who  were  shipping  large  ship- 
ments of  lewd  photographs  from  Baltimore,  after  having  been  con- 
victed of  the  same  offense  out  in  Los  Angeles. 

After  that  letter  the  FBI  investigated  tlie  case,  and  conducted  sur- 
veillance of  the  premises  at  Harford  Road,  and  looked  into  the  men 
who  were  going  in  and  out  of  that  building. 

Four  persons  were  primarily  involved.  Plerman  Solomon,  William 
Daymont,  Louis  D.  Passetti,  and  Ruby  Martin  Tayfoia. 

After  a  good  deal  of  investigation  in  which  the  Railway  Express 
Agency  was  cooperating  with  us,  on  December  14,  1953,  the  FBI  was 
notified  that  a  rather  large  shipment  had  been  deposited  with  them, 
and  agents  went  down  there  and  initialed  the  packages  contained  in 
that  shipment. 

Mr.  BoBO.  This  photograph  over  here,  was  that  the  shipment  that 
had  been  deposited  Avith  Railway  Express? 

Mr.  Bair.  That  is  correct;  that  is  the  shipment  of  the  14th  of 
December.  That  shipment  consisted  of  21  cartons  destined  for  14 
consignees  in  7  cities  all  over  the  United  States. 

The  shipment  was  permitted  to  go  through,  and  agents  in  various 
cities  to  which  these  packages  were  consigned,  later  picked  them  up 
and  returned  them  to  Baltimore. 

On  the  basis  of  that,  evidence  warrants  were  issued,  and  the  four- 
named  persons  were  arrested. 

Then  on  January  5,  1954,  the  Federal  grand  jury  at  Baltimore  re- 
turned an  11-count  indictment  against  Herman  Solomon,  William 
Daymont,  Louis  D.  Passetti,  and  on  Ruby  Tayfoia,  the  indictment  was 
based  on  section  14G2  of  title  18  of  the  United  States  Code;  and  it 
charged  them  with  knowingly  depositing  with  the  Railway  Express 
Agency  at  Baltimore  for  shipment  in  interstate  commerce  lewd,  las- 
civious, obscene,  and  filthy  photographs. 


This  11-coiiiit  indictment  concerned  only  17  of  the  cartons  which 
were  addressed  to  11  consignees  in  6  cities. 

The  volume  was  rather  large.  It  consisted  of  7,330  sets  of  photo- 
graphs, and  there  were  12  photographs  to  each  set;  thus  in  all  there 
were  87,960  photographs. 

These  had  a  declared  value  with  the  Kail  way  Express  Agency  of 
almost  $2,400.  They  were  being  consigned  at  about  35  cents  a  set. 
That  was  the  cost  to  the  retailer. 

The  retail  value,  hov>^ever,  was  about  $10,200,  because  I  had  2 
men,  2  of  the  consignees  come  to  testify  at  the  trial,  and  they  indicated 
that  they  received  about  $1.50  j^er  set. 

The  testimony  at  the  tiial  also  revealed  that  these  shipments  were 
taking  place  on  the  average  of  about  twice  a  week,  and  that  the  pro- 
duction was  in  the  neighborhood  of  3,000  sets  per  week.  If  you  want 
to  ap])ly  that  on  an  annual  basis,  that  would  be  156,000  sets',  or  1,872,- 
000  photographs  a  year. 

On  a  weekly  basis,  assuming  that  they  were  able  to  manufacture 
and  sell  3,000  sets  a  week,  at  35  cents  a  set,  the  shipments  out  of  Soloday 
would  come  to  about  $1,050  a  week.  It  is  difficult  to  ascertain  how 
much  of  that  $1,050  was  profit  to  Soloday.  They  indicated  that  maybe 
22  cents  of  the  35  cents  w^as  the  cost  of  production.  I  am  inclined 
to  think  that  is  a  little  high,  and  I  would  say  that  closer  to  about  half 
of  the  $1,000  was  profit  to  Soloday. 

Turning  to  the  market  for  these  photographs,  as  you  can  see  from 
the  map,  there  were  a  great  number  of  consignees  located  all  over  the 
United  States — about  45  or  46  in  number;  but  as  to  the  consignees' 
involved  in  the  prosecution  in  Baltimore,  there  were  11 — and  if  you 
wish  me  to,  I  will  read  those  into  the  record. 

Mr.  BoBO.  If  you  would,  please. 

Mr.  Bair.  Kay's  Bookstore,  1374  East  Ninth  Street,  Cleveland,  Ohio, 
they  received  500  sets  of  photographs. 

City  Hall  News  &  Novelty,  133  Lyons  Street  NW.,  Grand  Rapids, 
Mich.,  they  received  320  sets. 

The  Gallery,  347  North  Clark  Street,  Chicago,  111.,  they  received 
160  sets. 

Frank's  Magic,  at  1220  K  Street,  Sacramento,  Calif.,  received  725 

The  Satisfactory  Distributing  Co.,  501  M.  &  M.  Building,  Houston, 
Tex,,  received  3  cartons  containing  1,700  sets. 

Capital  News,  1709  East  Ninth  Street,  Cleveland,  Ohio,  received 
1,070  sets. 

William  Shatsky,  330  South  Olive  Street,  Los  Angeles,  Calif.,  re- 
ceived 925  sets. 

Joyland  Novelty  Co.,  421  South  Main  Street,  Los  Angeles,  Calif., 
received  300  sets. 

Tom  Libman,  331  South  Main  Street,  Los  Angeles,  Calif.,  received 
180  sets. 

The  G.  &  U.  Newstand,  516  South  ^Nlain  Street,  Los  Angeles,  Calif., 
received  275  sets. 

E.  Smith,  536  South  Main  Street,  Los  Angeles,  Calif.,  received  1,175 

Mr.  BoBO.  These  you  have  just  read  indicate  only  those  in  which 
you  had  in  the  11 -count  indictment  that  were  consigned  against 
Solodav  ? 


Mr.  Bair,  Those  were  the  names  of  the  consignees,  11  to  be  exact^ 
named  in  the  11 -count  indictment  in  this  particuhir  case. 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  this  particular  case  there  were  additional  consignees 
which  you  are  not  at  liberty  to  reveal  at  the  present  time  ? 

Mr.  Bair.   That  is  correct. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Numbering  some  46  altogether? 

Mr.  Bair.  There  are  about  46  names  that  we  have  in  our  file  to 
which  these  photographs  or  similar  ones  were  consigned. 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  addition  to  these  did  you  investigate  and  did  the  trial 
bring  out  the  fact  that  Solomon  or  Daymont  not  only  did  a  Railway 
Express  business  but  also  made  frequent  trips  by  automobile? 

Mr.  Bair.  That  is  true.  There  is  no  question  but  that  a  great  part 
of  this  business  was  not  done  by  Railway  Express.  If  the  figure  of 
3,000  photographs  a  week  is  a  correct  figure,  and  that  was  given  ta 
us  by  Louis  D.  Passetti,  a  much  smaller  number  than  3,000  per  week 
was  sent  by  Railway  Express.  We  know  about  27,000  sets  of  photo- 
graphs were  sent  by  Railway  Express  during  the  5  months  period  of 
July  to  November  1953.  At  the  same  time  at  the  rate  of  3,000  sets  a 
week,  you  w^oukl  have  about  60,000  rather  than  27,000  sets  produced 
during  that  period. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  the  trial  bring  out,  or  did  the  preliminary  investi- 
gation, the  amount  of  film  used  by  this  operation — raw  film? 

Mr.  Bair.  Yes ;  it  did. 

Mr.  BoBo.  I  think  I  should  correct  that — processing  paper. 

Mr.  Bair.  Records  which  were  obtained  by  a  search  warrant  indi- 
cated that  between  July  10  and  November  23,  1953,  Soloday  pur- 
chased over  $2,000  of  photographic  paper  from  Rochester,  N.  Y.,  and 
over  $7,600  worth  of  photogi'aphic  paper  from  a  company  in  New 
York  City. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  any  of  the  pictures  confiscated  portray  any  minors 
in  these  lewd  photographs? 

Mr.  Bair.  No  ;  they  did  not. 

Mr.  BoBo.  "^^Hien  this  material  was  shipped  out  was  it  deposited 
with  the  Railway-  Express  Co.,  or  did  they  go  by  Soloday  and  pick 
up  the  material? 

Mr.  Bair.  As  regards  this  particular  shipment,  I  believe  it  wa& 
brought  to  the  Railway  Express  Agency  by  automobile. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  mentioned  the  names  of  Herman  Solomon  and 
William  Daymont.    Was  this  a  partnership  operation  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  I  might  give  you  some  background  information  about 
those  two,  as  well  as  Avhat  we  know  about  Passetti  and  Tayfoia. 

Of  those  four  people,  Herman  Solomon  and  William  Daymont  were 
primarily  responsible  for  the  business  and  the  success  of  Soloday, 
which  is  obviously  a  combination  of  the  two  names,  Solomon  and 

Solomon  was  the  photographer.  He  had  an  apartment  in  New 
York  City  at  224  West  49th  Street,  where  he  also  had  a  studio.  There 
he  took  photographs  of  various  models. 

He  then  delivered  the  negatives  to  William  Daymont  at  35  Harford 
Road,  in  Baltimore,  where  they  were  developed,  and  where  the  photo- 
graphs were  printed  from  the  negatives. 

Louis  D.  Passetti  was  employed  by  Solomon  at  about  $65  a  week  to 
help  in  packaging  the  photographs. 


Kuby  Martin  Tayfoia  assisted  William  Daymont  in  Baltimore  in 
the  printing  of  the  photographs.  Because  of  her  small  connection 
with  the  matter,  the  indictment  against  her  was  dismissed,  and  only 
the  three  men  were  tried. 

Wliat  we  know  about  Solomon  and  Daymont,  we  know  primarily 
from  the  mouths  of  Passetti  and  Tayfoia.  Mr.  Passetti  met  Solomon 
in  San  Francisco  in  1949,  and  was  employed  by  him  that  year  to 
package  photographs.  While  he  was  in  the  hospital  out  there  he  was 
advised  that  the  police  had  raided  the  place  of  business  in  San  Fran- 
cisco, and  that  was  the  last  time  he  saw  Solomon  until  September 
1953,  when  he  again  began  working  for  Soloday. 

Miss  Tayfoia  was  about  IT  years  of  age  when  she  first  met  Solomon 
and  Daymont  in  Hollywood,  Calif.,  in  about  January  of  1952.  She 
went  to  work  for  them  there  as  a  model,  and  after  a  month  or  two  of 
posing  she  worked  for  them  as  a  printer  of  photographs. 

Just  a  few  months  prior  to  that,  in  October  of  1951,  both  Solomon 
and  Daymont  were  arrested  by  the  Los  Angeles  Police  Department 
on  a  charge  of  lewd  photographs,  and  Solomon  received  in  all  60 
days  suspended  sentence,  and  a  total  of  $200  in  fines. 

Daymont  at  that  time  received  1  year's  probation,  and  a  total  of 
$150  in  fines. 

In  May  of  1952,  while  within  the  probationary  period  of  Daymont, 
the  business  of  "Soloday"  moved  from  Santa  Monica,  Calif.,  to  the 
Harford  Eoad  address.  We  know  at  that  time,  from  September  of 
1952  until  they  were  arrested  in  December  1953,  they  operated  that 
business  in  Baltimore. 

Solomon  would  go  to  New  York  about  4  days  a  week.  He  would 
then  drive  to  Baltimore  and  remain  in  Baltimore  about  3  days  a 
week,  conducting  this  business. 

Daymont,  I  believe,  resided  solely  in  Baltimore. 

As  to  the  question  of  obtaining  models,  they  would  obtain  them 
from  night  clubs  and  burlesque  houses,  et  cetera.  They  would  offer 
them  something  like  $10  for  a  couple  of  hours'  work  in  posing;  and 
as  I  say,  a  good  bit  of  that  was  done  in  a  photographic  studio  in 
New  York  by  Solomon. 

However,  a  number  of  their  consignees  over  the  country,  one  in 
Cleveland  in  particular — we  know  they  offered  to  get  them  models, 
and  Daymont  and  Solomon  would  go  out  to  these  various  places  and 
photograph  other  models  in  studios  in  these  various  cities. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  how  those  negatives  would  be  forwarded 
into  Baltimore? 

Mr.  Bair.  I  have  no  Avay  of  knowing  that ;  no  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Go  right  ahead. 

Mr.  Bair.  Going  to  the  trial  which  took  place  in  Baltimore,  Solo- 
mon, Daymont,  and  Passetti  were  tried  on  this  11-count  indictment 
on  April  25, 1955,  before  Judge  W.  Calvin  Chestnut.  The  jury  was  an 
all-male  jury.  However,  they  returned  a  verdict  of  guilty;  and 
Solomon  was  sentenced  to  90  days  in  jail,  and  $1,000  fine. 

Daymont  was  sentenced  to  90  days  in  jail,  and  $1,000  fine. 

Passetti  was  fined  $500. 

The  issue  of  the  depositing  for  interstate  shipment  was  stipulated 
out  of  the  case  by  counsel,  so  that  the  only  issue  at  that  trial  was  the 
issue  of  obscenity. 


That  brings  me  to  the  type  of  photographs  involved  in  this  case. 
It  was  not  pornographic  ,per  se.  It  was  more  or  less  borderline 
photographs,  borderlining  between  the  art  type  of  photograph,  or  the 
stripping  nude  type  of  photograph.     There  were  three  types  in  all. 

They  were  in  sets  of  12  photographs  each.  The  girls  were  posed 
in  varying  stages  of  undress  in  one  type.  You  might  call  it  a  strip- 
ping nude,  but  it  was  not  strictly  that  inasmuch  as  there  was  not  a 
complete  nude  in  the  whole  group.  They  were  dressed  very  cleverly 
by  using  long  stockings  and  garters  and  black  lingerie,  black  gloves, 
and  black  boots,  and  so  forth.  I  don't  think  you  could  strictly  call 
it  an  artistic  stripping  nude. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Most  of  these  portrayed  long  black  leather  gloves,  and 
long  black  boots  and  high  heels  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  Yes;  I  would  describe  it  as  that.  I  wish  to  repeat  that 
it  was  not  pornographic.     There  were  no  suggestive  poses  involved. 

There  was  another  type  which  we  might  refer  to  as  a  wdiip  or  a 
flagellation  type,  in  which  a  woman  would  have  a  fairly  serious,  stern 
look  on  her  face,  and  she  would  be  holding  a  whip. 

There  was  a  third  type  which  we  might  refer  to  as  a  bondage  picture 
in  which  the  woman  was  jiosed  with  her  hands  and  feet  tied  with 
ropes,  and  in  many  cases  lying  on  a  bed,  with  a  very  frightened  look 
on  her  face. 

The  problem  before  me  was  to  see  Avhether  these  pictures  fitted  the 
tests  of  obscenity  which  had  been  laid  down  in  prior  Federal  court 
decisions;  and  the  tests  that  we  had  to  go  by  were  whether  these 
photographs  were  calculated  to  corrupt  the  morals  of  those  into 
whose  hands  they  might  fall,  by  exciting  lewd  thoughts  or  suggesting 
sensual  desires. 

There  were  two  appraches  to  the  problem.  One  you  might  call  a 
negative  approach,  and  the  other  a  positive  approach. 

As  a  negative  approach,  I  had  an  expert  from  the  Museum  of  Art 
come  in  to  testify  that  they  had  little,  if  any,  artistic  merit  to  them ; 
that  they  did  not  constitute  art,  in  that  any  little  artistic  merit  which 
they  had  was  completely  outweighed  by  emphasis  on  sex. 

There  were  a  number  of  asi)ects  to  the  positive  approach  to  the 
problem.  One  was,  of  course,  the  huge  volume,  the  huge  market  for 
these  photographs.  The  second  was  their  sole  purpose,  which  was 
a  pandering  to  the  lascivious  curiosity  in  men — just  a  strict  commer- 
cialization of  sex,  and  sex  alone.  That  was  emphatically  put  across 
to  the  jnry. 

The  third  approach  was  to  show  the  clever  and  skillful  method  to 
commercialize  this  kind  of  thing.  They  didn't  just  submit  one  photo- 
graph. They  submitted  12  in  a  series;  and  I  think  you  can  safely 
say  that  the  cumulative  effect  of  the  12  photograplis  was  greater  than 
the  sum  of  just  looking  at  12  photograplis  separately. 

Another  very  clever  method  used  by  them  is  the  use  of  partial 
clothing.  There  was  not  a  complete  nude  in  all  the  87,000  photo- 
graphs. There  was  always  just  a  little  bit  of  clothing  in  the  form 
of  garters  or  long  stockings,  or  black  lingerie.  Havelock  Ellis  and 
many  others  are  well  agreed  that  actually  nudity  is  more  chaste  than 
partial  clothing,  and  partial  clothing  is  a  much  easier  way — the  use 
of  partial  clothing  is  a  much  easier  way  to  incite  sensuality  in  man 
than  a  complete  nude. 


That  repi'eseiited  a  very  clever  observation  upon  the  part  of  these 
men,  and  they  ntihzed  it  extensively. 

Another  method  was  the  use  of  fetishes.  The  use  of  long  black 
gloves  and  long  boots,  or  high  heeled  shoes,  the  use  of  stockings  and 
garters,  the  use  of  whips  and  ropes. 

Necessarily  these  things  might  not  be  pi'ima  facie  evidence  to  a 
jury;  and  so  I  had  to  bring  in  a  psychiatrist  to  explain  some  of  the 
symbols.  I  brought  in  Dr.  Jacob  Harry  Conn,  of  Utah  Place,  in 
Baltimore,  and  he  testihed  tliat  pictures  such  as  these  represented  a 
very  skillful  invitation  and  solicitation  to  persons  who  are  in  need 
of  a  substitute  for  a  sexual  experience. 

From  the  huge  market  in  these  photographs  I  think  we  can  infer 
that  there  are  quite  a  few  people  in  such  a  need.  It  represents  the 
need  of  people  who  through  weakness  of  character,  through  age,  and 
lack  of  maturity,  or  through  social  and  moral  inhibitions  are  unable 
to  find  a  normal  outlet  for  the  sexual  urges. 

In  some  cases  the  need  is  a  pathological  need,  and  it  is  represented 
by  perverts,  by  impotents,  borderline  homosexuals.  The  wdiipping 
pictures  and  the  flagellations,  the  bondage  pictures,  they  are  all  di- 
rected to  that  type  of  person. 

At  the  same  time  Dr.  Conn  pointed  out  an  analogy  between  the 
impotent  type  of  person  who  had  this  need  and  the  adolescent  who 
was  just  approaching  the  awakening  of  that  type  of  life  when  he 
was  awakening  to  sexual  needs.  It  was  clear  to  him  that  such  a 
photograph  would  represent  an  outlet  for  a  vicarious  sexual  experi- 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  othei-  words,  actually  what  it  would  do,  if  it  was  a 
juvenile  and  an  innnature  person,  it  is  liable  to  cause  him  to  take  up 
this  partciular  fetish — whipping,  bondage,  as  an  outlet  for  sex? 

Mr.  Bair.  That  is  what  Dr.  Conn  testified  to. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Mr.  Bair,  what  was  the  end  result  of  the  case? 

Mr.  Bair.  As  I  said,  the  only  issue  was  that  of  obscenity,  and  the 
jury  brought  back  a  verdict  of  guilt ;  and  the  three  men  were  sentenced 
as  I  have  stated  previously. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Would  a  clearer  definition  in  the  statute  1461, 1462, 1463, 
1464  of  what  constitutes  pornographic  literature,  have  assisted  in  this 
case  in  obtaining  a  stronger  conviction  for  these  individuals  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  I  don't  think  so.  I  would  hesitate  to  legislate  further 
as  to  the  definition  of  obscenity. 

I  believe  the  courts  over  a  long  period  of  time  have  established 
certain  standards  which  I  might  say  are  flexible  in  that  the  present 
test  is  the  standard  of  the  community  here  now;  and  as  you.  know, 
these  standards  do  change. 

If  you  look  back  to  the  Greco-Koman  era,  or  the  Victorian  era,  these 
standards  do  change. 

The  present  test  allows  you  to  look  at  the  standards  of  the  com- 
munity here  and  now,  and  to  decide  whether  this  material  is  calculated 
to  corrupt  the  morals  by  exciting  lewd  thoughts  and  sensual  desires  ; 
and  I  think  the  test  at  the  present  time  is  adequate.  To  legislate  fur- 
ther on  it  may  restrict  courts  too  much  in  the  future. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Prosecution  and  investigation  of  this  case  required  ap- 
proximately what — 2  years  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  The  investigation  required  almost  5  months. 

Mr.  BoBO.  How  long  was  it  in  the  courts  ? 


Mr.  Bair.  Well,  the  trial  lasted  a  little  over  a  day. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  ]Mr.  Martin,  do  you  have  any  questions  ? 

Mr.  Martin.  Mr.  Bair,  I  believe  you  told  us  the  cost  to  Solomon  was 
22  cents.  I  believe  22  cents  was  the  price  spread  between  the  cost  anc 
what  he  was  selling  for.    Wasn't  the  cost  13  cents  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  Well,  at  the  trial  they  maintained  that  the  cost  was  2S 
■cents.  However,  there  is  evidence  in  their  books  and  records  that  th( 
cost  was  13  cents.  It  is  a  little  hard  to  ascertain  exactly  what  it  cost. 
I  would  estimate  they  made  about  one-half  of  the  35  cents  as  profit. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  When  was  the  final  judgment  rendered  in  this 
case  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  On  April  26, 1955. 

Chairman  Kefau^^er.  I  think  there  have  been  some  other  indict 
ments  brought.  A  good  many  cases  were  waiting  on  the  outcome  o1 
this  one  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  That  is  correct,  Mr.  Chairman.     All  of  these  consignees" 
are  subject  to  prosecution  under  1462,  and  a  great  many  of  the  districts 
had  been  awaiting  the  outcome  of  this  case  prior  to  authorization  of 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  was  interested  in  what  happened  to  this  girl, 
Kuby  Tayf oia.     She  was  in  California  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  That  is  where  she  first  met  Mr.  Solomon,  out  in  Holly- 

Chairman  Kefauver.  At  that  time  she  was  just  a  teen-ager  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  Just  17  years  old. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  they  brought  her  back  to  Baltimore  in 
tne  business  there  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  That  is  correct. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  did  these  fellows  do  before  they  got  into 
this  business — do  you  know  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  We  have  no  way  of  knowing  that.  Senator. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Doesn't  Solomon  have  some  record  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  In  1951  he  was  convicted  in  Los  Angeles  on  the  same  type 
of  charge.  At  that  time  he  received  60  days  suspended  sentence  and 
$200  fine.  We  know  that  he  was  also  printing  these  photographs  as 
early  as  1919,  but  what  he  was  doing  prior  to  that  we  don't  know. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  After  leaving  Los  Angeles  he  came  to  Balti- 
more ? 

Mr.  Bair.  Yes;  he  came  to  Baltimore  in  May  of  1952. 

Chairman  Kefau\ter.  Didn't  some  of  the  girls  who  posed  as  models 
make  some  claims  about  not  knowing  what  they  were  doing? 

Mr.  Bair.  Well,  there  is  a  little  indication  in  the  investigation  that 
Avhile  they  were  posing  for  supposedly  art  pictures,  there  were  two 
cameras  focused  on  them — one  that  they  didn't  know  about. 

Chairman  Kefau\'er.  And  they  claim  they  didn't  sign  the  release 
for  some  of  the  pictures,  but  they  were  used  notwithstanding,  or  they 
didn't  know  what  they  were  signing  when  they  signed  the  release  ? 

Mr.  Bair.  I  do  not  know,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauv'er.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Bair. 

We  appreciate  the  hard  work  that  you  have  put  in  on  this  case,  and 
the  fact  that  you  have  stayed  with  it  so  long,  and  finally  won  your 

As  I  said  before,  I  think  it  had  a  very  salutory  effect  throughout 
the  Nation. 


We  will  have  about  a  3-minute  recess. 

(A  short  recess  was  taken.) 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Proceed,  Mr.  Bobo. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Mr.  Rubin. 

(Abraham  Rubin  was  sworn.) 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Proceed,  Mr.  Bobo. 


Mr.  BoBo.  You  have  counsel  here  with  you  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Will  you  identify  yourself? 

Mr.  Weiss.  Daniel  S.  Weiss,  15  East  40th  Street. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Will  you  state  your  full  name  and  present  address  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  Abraham  Rubin,  1639  41st  Street,  Brooklyn. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  didn't  understand  that. 

Mr.  Rubin.  Abraham  Rubin. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  also  at  other  times  been  known  by  a  different 
name  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provision  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Just  a  minute  now.  Do  you  plead  immunity 
under  the  fifth  amendment? 

Mr.  Rubin.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  As  we  go  along  I  will  pass  on  whether  the 
witness  should  be  ordered  to  answer  the  question.  I  will  have  to  order 
vou  to  answer  that  question,  Mr.  Rubin.  If  you  refuse  to  answer, 
just  sav,  "I  refuse  to  answer." 

Mr.  IRubin.  Thank  you,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauvtsr.  But  under  the  rules  and  for  the  record,  ques- 
tions are  asked,  and  if  you  refuse  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amend- 
ment, if  I  think  it  is  a  proper  question  I  will  have  to  ask  you  to  answer. 
You  either  answer  or  refuse  to  answer. 

Proceed,  Mr.  Bobo. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  furnished  this  subcommittee  all  the  available 
records  which  were  requested  in  the  subpcna  issued  to  you  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  of  the  provision 
of  tlie  fiftli  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  chairman  directs  you  to  answer,  Mr. 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  tlie  immunity  provision  of  the 
fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Mr.  Bobo.  In  1950  you  had  a  reported  income  of  $7,796.82;  in 
1951,  $8,635.35 ;  in  1952,"  $8,688.76 ;  in  1953,  $8,099.94 ;  in  1954,  $7,919.44. 

On  what  basis  did  you  arrive  at  these  figures  without  producing 
records  to  show  your  income  for  those  years  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provision  of  the 
fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  chairman  directs  you  to  answer  the  ques- 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of  the 
fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Weiss,  to  save  time  and  with  full  under- 
standing, if  in  answer  to  a  question  if  he  wishes  to  plead  the  fifth 


amendment,  it  will  be  nnderstood  and  we  let  the  record  make  that 
clear,  that  if  he  says  "I  refuse  to  answer,"  we  will  understand  that 
that  is  on  the  basis  of  the  immunity  provisions  of  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  Weiss.  That  will  save  time. 

Chairman  Kefattver.  Shall  we  also  let  the  record  show  that  I  have 
ordered  him  to  answer  after  he  says  "I  refuse,"  unless  it  is  some  ques- 
tion that  I  feel  should  not  be  asked  him,  in  which  event  I  will  so  desig- 
nate, so  that  will  save  a  lot  of  time. 

Mr.  Weiss.  I  agree  with  you. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Very  well.  Let  me  ask  this  question.  Would 
the  witness  give  us  any  statement,  or  does  counsel  wish  to  give  us  any 
statement  just  what  offense,  or  what  law,  the  prosecution  of  which 
the  witness  may  be  afraid  that  he  would  be  subject  to  in  the  event  he 
answered  ? 

Mr.  Weiss.  His  answer  will  be  the  same,  Senator. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  His  answer  will  be  the  same  ? 

Mr.  Weiss.  Yes. 

Mr.  Martin.  Is  it  a  State  or  Federal  offense? 

Mr.  Weiss.  His  answ-er  will  be  the  same. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Bobo,  ask  such  pertinent  questions  as 
you  wish  to  bring  out. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  kind  of  business  are  you  engaged  in,  Mr.  Eubin? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  I  cannot  understand  you. 

Chairman  Kefaus^er.  He  said  he  refused  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Are  you  the  same  Abraham  Rubin  that  was  arrested  in 
Detroit,  Mich.,  in  1953  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  that  a  photograph  that  was  taken  of  you  at  that  time? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  Kefau^^r.  Let  the  photograph  be  filed  as  an  exhibit. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Were  the  charges  against  you  at  that  time  possession  of 
obscene  literature  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Hand  him  his  w^hole  record  here.  There  is  no 
use  going  over  each  one.  This  is  the  record  that  has  been  introduced 
in  evidence  as  an  exhibit  here. 

The  question  is:  Is  the  photograpli  on  top  of  it,  and  is  this  your 
record  of  arrests,  convictions,  or  acquittal  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  it  be  filed. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Mr.  Rubin,  isn't  is  true  you  are  considered  one  of  the 
major  suppliers  of  pornography  in  the  United  States? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  Bono.  In  the  business  in  wliich  you  are  engaged  in,  in  how  many 
States  do  you  operate  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  this  chart  be  inserted  here. 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  the  business  in  which  you  are  engaged  in,  have  you 
ever  operated  in  the  State  of  New  York,  Pennsylvania,  Ohio,  Indiana, 
Missouri,  Kentucky,  West  Virginia,  Virginia,  and  New  Jersey? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  ever  had  any  contacts  with  any  persons  in  any 
of  those  States  ? 

ujco  ^!^ 






Li.  Zo. 





Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Have  you  ever  been  arrested  before  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  How  long  have  you  been  associated  either  directly  or 
indirectly  with  Eddie  Mishkin  in  the  pornography  traffic? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Does  he  know  Mr.  Miskin  ? 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Mishkin  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Where  were  you  born  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  "What  is  your  citizenship,  Mr.  Rubin  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  How  many  children  do  you  have  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  Bobo.  What  is  your  present  home  address  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  already  gave  it  to  you. 

Mr.  Bobo.  A\liat  is  your  present  telephone  number  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  your  refusal  to  answer  upon  fear  of  bodily 
harm  or  reprisal  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Do  you  know  Frank  Lano,  of  Chicago,  111.  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  ever  done  business  with  Mr.  Lano  in  Chicago, 
111.,  or  in  New  York  City? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Mr.  Rubin,  is  it  true  that  your  business  in  pornography 
amounts  to  approximately  $100,000  a  year? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBo.  How  long  have  you  known  Mr.  Lou  Shomer? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  ever  done  business  with  Mr.  Shomer? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  Bobo.  How  long  have  you  been  doing  business  with  Mr.  Arthur 
Herman  Sobel  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  proper  question  would  be  does  he  laiow 
Mr.  Sobel,  and  does  he  do  any  business  with  him. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Sobel  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  knov7  Mr.  Rotto  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Have  you  ever  done  any  business  with  him  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Do  you  know  INIr.  Stanley  Jablonski  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Have  you  ever  done  any  business  with  Mr.  Jablonski? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Morris  Lowenstein? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Have  you  ever  done  any  business  with  him  in  Flint, 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 



Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Lou  Saxton,  of  Pittsburgh,  Pa.  ? 

Mr.  KuBiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  How  long  have  you  known  Mr.  Saxton? 

Mr.  EuBiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Isn't  it  true  that  you  have  made  numerous  large  deliv- 
eries of  pornographic  material  to  the  Bizon  Co.,  in  Detroit,  Mich.? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr  BoBO.  Isn't  it  true  that  you  were  the  original  printer  and 
distributor  for  the  "Fuller  Brush  Man"  series  of  obscene  comics? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  Bobo.  For  how  many  years  did  you  publish  these  comics  < 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr  Bobo.  Can  you  explain  how  it  is  that  your  name  and  telephone 
number  has  been  found  in  the  address  books  of  large  dealers  arrested 
over  the  country— dealers  of  pornography  throughout  the  United 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer.  ,.  -rr      ^        mo 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  Mr.  E.  Red  Florence  of  Houston,  iex.« 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer.  .  -,   T»r     -r^i  o 

Mr.  Bobo.  How  long  have  you  done  business  with  Mr.  I  lorence' 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer.  „  ,-cr    i  •     .       -r^  ^  o 

Mr.  Bobo.  Do  you  know  Mr.  George  Fodor,  of  Washington,  D.L.i 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer.  .  i  -.^r    -r-  j     o 

Mr.  BoBO.  For  how  long  have  you  done  business  with  Mr.  J^  odor  i 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  KErAU\T2R.  The  witness  refuses  to  answer. 

Mr  Rubin,  in  the  scant  records  which  you  gave  to  the  subcommittee, 
is  a  copy  of  a  statement  of  expenses  and  other  things  prepared  by 
Mr.  Marvin  R.  Fullmer. 

My  question  is :  Will  you  identify  this,  or  are  you  willing  to  identity 


Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  Kefau\'er.  We  will  let  the  record  be  put  m  evidence  as 
o-oing  with  the  questions  which  you  refuse  to  answer. 

(The  information  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  13,"  and  is  as  follows :) 

Review  of  Income  Tax  and  Bank  Statements,  1950  Through  1954 

(By  Marvin  R.  Fullmer) 

Name :  Abe  Rubin,  alias  Al  Stone. 

Occupation:  Wholesale  trade,  jewelry  salesman. 

Income  tax 

commission  merchant. 



$9, 796,  82 
8,  635. 35 
8,  688.  76 
8, 099.  94 
7,  919.  44 

Tax  paid 

1,  332. 06 


Business  figures 

Total  receipts 

Cost  of  mdse 

1951 . 

$13, 663.  00 
16,  429.  25 
16, 820. 00 

.$3,  996 
6  348 


1953  -  - 


6  145 

How  are  these  figures  derived? 

Receipts  ? 

Bill  of  sale,  etc.? 

Wliat  is  your  basis  of  these  figures? 

Savings  accounts 

Greater  New  York  Savings  Bank :  Present  balance,  $8,314.40.  Opened  Decem- 
ber 7,  1945,  Mary  Gordon,  in  trust  for  Abraham  Rubin.     Opening  deposit,  $500. 

Bay  Ridge  Savings  Bank :  Present  balance,  $5,362.37.  Opened  May  23,  1950, 
Mary  G.  Rubin  or  Abraham  Rubin.    Opening  deposit,  $350. 

Checking  account 

The  Public  National  Bank  and  Trust  Co.  of  New  York.  Opened  account  Octo- 
ber 29,  1951,  $1,500  deposit. 

Total  deposits 

1951  $6, 748 

1952 9,  012 

1953 5,  275 

1954 _ 6,  175 

195Jf  expenditures  taken  from  canceled  checks 

Auto,  5  months  at  $75 $375 

Auto,  5  months  at  $106 530 

12  house  payments  at  $50 600 

Income  tax 1,  500 

Martin  Harris    (insurance) SOO 

Standard  Oil  (car  expenses) 250 

Net  savings,  deposits 4,072 

City  tax,  etc ^175 

Telephone ^  75 

Consolidated    Edison ^  120 

Total 8,  494 

1  Approximate, 

Reported  income,  $7,919.  • 

July  28,  1954,  $3,102.32  deposit  by  check  (payor  unknown)  in  savings  account, 
Bay  Ridge  Savings  Bank. 

Safe-deposit  box :  The  Public  National  Bank  and  Trust  Companv  of  New  York, 
vault.  No.  332.    In  whose  name? 

Any  other  boxes,  etc.? 

Chairman  IvEFAtn^ER.  One  part  of  it  is  that  you  have  a  safety- 
deposit  box,  No.  332,  at  the  Public  National  Bank  and  Trust  Co.  of 
New  York.    Is  that  in  your  name,  or  not  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Very  well,  Mr.  Rubin.  Mr.  Rubin,  I  will 
have  to  ask  you  to  remain  under  continuing  subpena  in  the  event  we 
want  to  call  you  back.  In  that  event,  you  or  Mr.  Weiss  will  be 

I  believe  that  is  all  for  the  time  being. 

Call  the  next  witness,  gentlemen. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Mr.  Andy  Bruckner. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  Mr.  Bruckner  here  ? 


(There  was  no  response.) 
Mr.  BoBO.  Mr.  George  Fodor. 


(George  Fodor  was  sworn.) 

Chairman  Ivefauver.  All  right,  Mr.  Bobo.     Proceed. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Mr.  Fodor,  will  you  give  us  your  full  name  and  address? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  George  Fodor,  3710  39th  Street  North,  St.  Petersburg. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  also  maintain  a  residence  in  Washington,  D.  C.  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  lived  in  Washington,  D.  C.  ? 

Mr.  Fodor.  Yes ;  I  did. 

Mr.  BoBO.  When  did  you  leave  that  city  ? 

Mr.  Fodor.  Three  and  a  half  months  ago. 

Mr.  BoBO.  How  are  you  employed,  Mr.  Fodor? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  What? 

Mr.  BoBO.  How  are  you  employed,  what  is  your  job? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Working  in  a  little  store. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Where  were  you  born,  Mr.  Fodor? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Warshaw,  Kumania. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Are  you  presently  a  United  States  citizen  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Wlien  you  lived  in  Washington,  D.  C,  how  were  you 
employed,  Mr.  Fodor  ? 

Mr.  Fodor.  In  the  beginning  or  the  end,  or  when  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Fodor,  I  cannot  quite  hear  you.  You  are 
a  big  man ;  speak  up.  ,     -,       ,  t, 

Mr.  FoDOR.  I  will  try,  sir.  Wlien  I  started  working,  I  worked  at  the 
J.  Warehouse  in  Washington,  D.  C. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Mr.  Fodor,  have  ever  dealt  in  pornographic  material? 

Mr.  Fodor.  Yes ;  I  did. 

Mr.  Bobo.  For  how  long  a  period  did  you  sell  pornography  ? 

Mr.  Fodor.  Around  5  or  6  months. 

Mr,  BoBO.  And  where  was  this  sold  ? 

]\Ir.  Fodor.  In  Washington,  D.  C. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  When  was  this,  Mr.  Fodor;  when  were  you  m 
the  business  in  Washington  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  I  try  to  hgure  it  out.  I  am  very  weak  with  the  numbers 
memory.     I  guess  in  3  years  ago,  or  21/2  years  ago. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Three  years  ago? 

Mr.  Fodor.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bobo.  What  were  the  types  of  pornographic  material  handled 
by  you,  Mr.  Fodor? 

Mr.  Fodor.  I  had  films,  comic  books,  and  pictures. 

Mr.  BoBO.  And  from  whom  did  you  receive  this  pornogi^aphic 

IllcltGl^lcll  . 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Most  of  it  I  received  from  Mr.  Dorfman. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  couldn't  understand  that. 

Mr.  Fodor.  Most  of  it  received  from  Mr.  Dorfman,  from  Baltimore. 

Mr.  Bobo.  D-o-r-f-m-a-n? 

Mr.  Fodor.  Yes. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Where  did  Mr.  Dorfman  live? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  In  Baltimore  some  place.     I  don't  know  the  address. 


Chairman  Kefauver.  Wliat  is  his  first  name  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Ike. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Ike  Dorfman? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Isadore  Dorfman,  is  it  not? 

Mr.  Fodor.  I  don't  know  the  name.     Only  I  know  Ike. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  Mr.  Dorfman  the  only  contact  you  had  for  porno- 
graphic material? 

Mr.  Fodor.  No,  sir.     I  had  from  Jacksonville,  too. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  got  it  from  whom  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Jacksonville. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Jacksonville,  Fla.  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Yes. 

Mr.  BoBO.  From  whom  did  you  buy  it  there,  Stanley  Jablonski? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  I  don't  know  the  name,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  How  would  you  buy  it  from  the  person  in  Jackson- 
ville, Fla.? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  They  brought  to  me.     I  brought  in  only  once. 

INIr.  BoBO.  They  brought  it  to  you? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  Washington,  D.  C.  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Right,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  How  was  the  delivery  made  ? 

Mr.  Fodor.  He  brought  me  with  his  car. 

Mr.  BoBO.  He  brought  you  his  card? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  His  car,  his  car. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  Edward  Mishkin,  M-i-s-h-k-i-n  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  I  don't  recognize  his  name,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  anyone  that  goes  by  the  name  of  Eddie, 
E-d-d-i-e,  of  New  York  City? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  No ;  if  I  know.  If  I  see,  maybe  I  know.  But  I  don't 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  know  Mr.  Al  Stone,  or  Mr.  Abraham  Rubin,  of 
New  York  City? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  I  saw  just  now  here.     That's  all  I  know. 

Mr.  BoBO.  That  is  the  first  time  you  have  ever  seen  him  ? 

Mr.  Fodor.  Yes. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  seen  Mr.  Eddie  Mishkin  in  the  room  today? 

Mr.  Fodor.  Who? 

Mr.  BoBO.  Mr.  Eddie  Mishkin. 

(Mr.  Fodor  shakes  head  in  negative.) 

Mr.  Bono.  Did  you  say  you  could  recognize  him  if  you  saw  him? 

Mr.  Fodor.  1  will  try  (looking  through  courtroom). 

]Mr.  Martin.  Is  Mr.  Mishkin  in  the  room? 

Mr.  Weiss.  I  am  his  attorney.    He  is  not  coming  up. 

Mr.  Martin.  He  is  supposed  to  be  in  the  courtroom  here. 

Mr.  Weiss.  He  is  here. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Sit  down,  Mr.  Fodor. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Who  were  your  customers  for  pornographic  material, 
Mr.  Fodor? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  I  had  Mr.  Chucoski. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  he  the  only  person  to  whoni  you  ever  sold  ? 



Mr.  FoDOR.  No.     I  will  tell  you.     Mr.  Chucoski,  Mr.  King,  Mr. 

Bannister.  -r^  ,-,  o 

Mr.  BoBO.  Wliere  did  they  live,  in  Washington,  D.  C.  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Yes;  all  Washington,  D.  C.    Mr.  Dockett. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  ever  make  any  trips  to  New  York  to  purchase 
pornographic  material  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  No. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  a  Mr.  Lou  Shomer,  S-h-o-m-e-r  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  If  I  see  him,  maybe  I  know  him. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  ever  buy  any  materials  from  this  man  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  I  don't  think  so'l  did.    I  don't  remember. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Where  would  you  make  your  purchases  from  Mr.  Ike 
Dorfman,  of  Baltimore,  Md.  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  I  did  ;  sometime  he  brought  to  me  in  Washington,  D.  C. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  was  the  price  that  you  paid  for  the  materials  you 
bought  from  him. 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Six  cents  I  paid  for  the  comic  book. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Six  cents  you  paid  for  the  comic  book  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Yes,  sir 

Mr.  BoBO.  How^  much  did  you  sell  them  for  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Ten  cents. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  deal  in  any  other  type  of  materials  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Yes;  films. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  ever  know  where  the  films  came  from  which 
you  handled? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  No ;  I  don't. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  never  manufactured  or  made  any  films  yourself? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  rent  a  fihn  to  Mr.  Philip  Stone  of  Washington, 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Who? 

Mr.  BoBO.  Mr.  Phil  Stone,  of  Washington,  D.  C.  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  I  don't  think  so  I  ever  heard  that  name.  I  heard  men- 
tion this  morning,  I  never  give  it  up.  I  never  sold,  I  never  sold  this 
Mr.  Stone. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Was  the  film  that  was  confiscated  at  the  Don  Pallini 
Dance  Studio  in  Washington,  D.  C. 

Mr.  FoDOR.  What? 

Mr.  BoBO.  Was  the  film  that  was  confiscated  taken  by  Inspector 
Blick  of  Washington  from  the  Don  Pallini  Dance  Studio  your  film  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  had  not  operated  that  film  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  I  have  no  idea  where  is  this  dance  studio,  and  I  have  no 
i^ea  wliat  was  there,  and  I  have  no  idea  who  is  this  man. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  have  a  route  serving  approximately  300  cus- 
tomers for  pornographic  material  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  No,  sir.    Four. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Four  customers? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  That's  right. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  other  type  of  business  were  you  engaged  in  while 
you  were  selling  pornography  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  No  other  venture.    I  had  three 


Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  sell  school  supplies  to  schools  and  drugstores  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  That's  right.  That  is  where  I  have  300  customers  where 
I  sold  this ;  that's  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  had  300  customers  for  your  school  sup- 
plies ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  That's  right,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Who  were  your  four  customers  for  pornog- 
raphy ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Four. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Who  were  they  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  I  just  told  you.  Mr.  Dockett,  Mr.  King,  Mr.  Chucoski, 
and  Mr.  Bannister. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  know  their  addresses  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  I  did  know.  At  that  time  I  told  to  the  inspector,  and 
also  to  the  FBI. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  not  have  $30,000  worth  of  school  supplies  m  your 
basement  at  the  time  of  your  arrest  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBo.  What  was  the  value  you  placed  upon  your  stock? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Six  or  seven  thousand. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Six  or  seven — what  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Thousand. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Six  or  seven  thousand  dollars  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Between  six  and  seven ;  yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  remember  just  when  you  were  in 
business,  Mr.  Fodor  ? 

Mr.  Fodor.  I  guess  three,  three  and  a  half  years  ago. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Wliat  are  you  doing  in  Jacksonville  now  ? 

Mr.  Fodor.  I  never  was  in  Jacksonville,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  mean  in  St.  Petersburg? 

Mr.  Fodor.  I  try  to  do  the  same  business  what  1  had  in  Washmgton, 
D,  c. — school  supplies  and  notions  and  toys. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Anything  else,  Mr.  Bobo? 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  have  a  total  sales  of  $50,613  in  1954  ? 

Mr.  Fodor.  In  this  paper,  the  income  tax ;  yes. 

Mr.  Bono.  Was  all  that  derived  from  your  business  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBo.  School  supply  salesman  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  Correct. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Of  your  $50,000  business  in  1954,  how  much  tax  did  you 
pay  to  the  Government  ? 

Mr.  FoDOR.  I  don't  remember.     You  have  the  paper  there. 

Mr.  BoBO.  How  much  of  this  $50,613  represented  pornographic 

Mr.  Fodor.  Nothing. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Fodor,  I  believe  those  are  all  the  ques- 
tions we  have.     Stay  in  the  court  room  for  a  while  this  afternoon? 

Mr.  Fodor.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Mr.  Eddie  Mishkin. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Mishkin,  I  don't  think  you  have  been 
sworn,  have  you? 

Mr.  Mishkin.  No,  sir. 



(Eddie  Mishkin  was  sworn.)  ,.-,,•..  n  a 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  us  get  Mr.  Mishkm  s  full  name  and 

fi  rlcli*BSS 

Mr  BoBo.  Will  you  give  us  your  full  name  and  address? 

Mr.  Mishkin.  Edward  Mishkin,  53  Algonquin  Road,  Yonkers,  N.  Y. 

Chairman  KEFAU^^cR.  I  didn't  understand  the  road. 

Mr.  MisHKiK.  Algonquin  Road. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  right,  Mr.  Bobo. 

Mr.  BoBO.  ^^^at  are  your  businesses,  Mr.  Mishkm  ? 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  ot 
Ihe  fifth  amendment  to  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefau\t:r.  The  chairman  directs  you  to  answer. 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution.  .   , ,    . 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Weiss,  can  we  have  an  agreement  that 
in  his  refusal  to  answer,  when  he  says  "I  refuse  to  answer,  that  it 
will  be  understood  that  it  is  under  the  immunity  provision  of  the 
fifth  amendment? 

Mr.  Weiss.  Certainly.  .  .       -,  ^ 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  that  after  having  refused  to  answer, 
that  he  is  then  directed  to  answer  by  the  chairman. 

ATr  AVeiss    Yes   sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Proceed  to  the  pertinent  questions,  Mr  Bobo. 

Mr  BoBo  ISIr  Mishkin,  is  it  not  true  that  you  own  the  Times  Square 
Book"  Bazaar,  the  Little  Book  Exchange,  and  the  Kiiio;sley  Book 
Store,  located  in  the  Times  Square  area  of  New  York  City? 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer.  •     i     •     j  j? 

Mr.  Bobo.  Is  it  not  true  that  part  of  your  income  is  derived  from 
the  sales  of  pornographic  material  ? 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  it  not  true  that  your  business  amounts  to  approxi- 
mately $1,500,000  a  year? 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  not  formerly  operate  the  Harmony  Book  Store 
of  New  York  City? 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Wasn't  the  Harmony  Book  Store,  or  is  it  not  true  that  the 
Harmony  Book  Store  was  raided  by  the  northern  district  attorney 
and  over  $50,000  of  pornographic  material  seized? 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  Bobo.  From  whom  did  you  receive  the  material  that  was  con- 
fiscated in  this  rade? 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Confiscated  in  this  raid  were  2,600  volumes  of  lights  ot 
Horrow.     From  whom  did  you  receive  these  books  ? 
Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  IvEFAmT.R.  Mr.  Mishkin,  what  business  are  you  in? 
Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Are  you  in  any  ligitimate  business? 
Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 
Chairman  Kefau\^r.  Where  were  you  born  ? 
Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 


Mr.  BoBO.  Is  it  not  true  that  you  employed  one  Eugene  Maletta  to 
print  copies  of  Nights  of  Horrow  for  you  ? 

Mr.  MisHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  furnish  the  plates  to  Eugene  Maletta  ? 

Mr.  MisiiKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  furnish  the  money  to  Mr.  Maletta  to  set  up  his 
printing  shop? 

Mr.  MiSHKix.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  How  long  have  you  done  business  with  Mr.  Eugene 
Maletta  ? 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  ever  give  Mr.  Maletta  a  check  in  payment  for  the 
work  he  did  for  you? 

Mr.  MiSHKTN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  pay  him  in  cash  ? 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  is  the  value  in  dollars  of  the  pornographic  material 
you  have  imported  from  foreign  sources  ? 

Mr.  MisHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  import  any  pornographic  material  from  foreign 
sources  ? 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Have  you  ever  made  any  buys  from  sources  in  Europe  ? 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  Bono.  How  much  obscene  material  have  you  sold  to  Joe  Carroll 
and  Mr.  Pellegrino,  of  New  York  City,  during  the  past  2  years  ? 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  types  of  material  did  you  sell  ? 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  ever  stolen  any  material  from  other  pornog- 
raphy dealers,  copied  what  you  wanted  from  it,  and  reproduced  it  for 
your  own  use  ? 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  have  any  police  record  ? 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Do  you  have  a  man  working  for  you  by  the  name  of  Harry 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  this  same  Harry  Revo  that  was  arrested  in  Birming- 
ham, Ala.,  with  a  load  of  pornographic  material  ? 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  not  furnish  Mr.  Harry  Revo  and  Johnny  Melvin 
with  this  load  of  pornographic  material  ? 

Mr.  MisiiKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Arthur  Herman  Sobel  ? 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBo.  How  much  ])ornographic  material  have  you  sold  Mr. 
Sobel  during  the  past  5  years  ? 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Lou  Saxton,  of  Philadelphia? 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  1  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBo.  And  Pittsburgh,  Pa.  ? 

How  much  business  have  you  done  with  Mr.  Saxton? 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 


Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Al  Stone,  alias  Abraham  Kubin? 
Mr.  MiSHKiN.  i  refuse  to  answer.  ,^0.  v       at 

Mr.  BoBO.  For  how  long  have  you  known  Mr.  btone,  alias  Mr. 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer.  ^     •  i  .     at 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  ever  sold  any  pornographic  material  to  Mr. 
Stone,  alias  Kubin  ? 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 
Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Morris  GiUman  ? 
Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  ever  done  any  business  ot  any  type  witli  Mr. 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  ever  sold  any  pornographic  material  on  credit  ? 
Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Lou  Shomer,  S-h-o-m-e-r  i 
Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer.  ,^01  0 

I^Ir.  BoBO.  Have  you  ever  dealt  with  or  lent  money  to  Mr.  bhomer? 
Mr.  MisHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer.  ^ 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  have  any  interest  in  the  Times  bquare  Book 
Bazaar  ? 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 
Mr.  BoBO.  In  the  Little  Book  Exchange? 
Mr.  MisiiKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 
Mr.  BoBO.  In  the  Kingsley  Book  Store? 
Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  have  any  interest  in  any  other  business  m  New 
York  City? 

Mr.  MisiiKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 
Chairman  Kefauver.  Any  other  questions,  Mr.  Bobo  ? 
■    We  are  not  getting  anywhere  here.     How  old  are  you,  Mr.  Mishkm  ? 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  KEFAU^^2R.  Are  you  married— do  you  have  a  family  ? 

Mr.  MisiiKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Mishkin,  I  will  direct  that  you  remain 
under  subpena  subject  to  the  further  call  by  this  committee  upon 
notification  of  you  or  your  attorney,  Mr.  Weiss. 

That  is  all  now. 

Who  is  our  next  witness,  Mr.  Bobo  ? 

Mr.  Bobo.  Mr.  Arthur  Herman  Sobel. 

Cliairman  Kefau^^r.  Mr.  Bohrar,  you  gave  your  address  and  what 
not  yesterday,  did  you  not? 

Mr.  BoHRAR.  I  did. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  is  B-o-h-r-e-r? 

Mr.  BoHRAR.  B-o-h-r-a-r. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  the  record  show  that  Mr.  Bohrar  is  ac- 
companying Mr.  Sobel  and  is  his  attorney. 

Does  Mr.  Sobel  object  to  having  the  television  cameras  on? 

Mr.  Bohrar.  He  does. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Gentlemen,  I  will  ask  your  cooperation. 

This  is  Mr.  Arthur  Herman  Sobel.     Is  that  correct,  Mr.  Bobo? 

Mr.  BoBo.  That  is  correct. 

Chairman  Kefau^ter.  I  have  not  sworn  you,  have  I  ? 

Mr.  Bohrar.  Not  yet.     Mr.  Sobel  doesn't  hear  very  well. 


Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Sobel,  you  have  not  been  sworn,  have 

Mr.  Sobel.  No,  sir. 


(Arthur  Herman  Sobel  was  sworn.) 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Bobo,  ask  him  in  a  loud  voice  so  he  can 

Mr.  BoBO.  Your  name  is  Arthur  Herman  Sobel  ? 

Mr.  Sobel.  Eight. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Where  do  you  live,  Mr.  Sobel  ? 

Mr.  Sobel.  319  West  48th  Street,  Manhattan. 

Mr.  BoBO.  That  is  Manhattan,  New  York? 

Mr.  Sobel.  That's  right. 

Mr.  BoBO.  How^  old  are  you  ? 

Mr.  Sobel.  Sixty-four. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Mr.  Sobel,  have  you  ever  been  arrested  before  ? 

(Mr.  Sobel  confers  with  Mr.  Bohrar.) 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  ever  been  arrested,  Mr.  Sobel  ? 

Mr.  Sobel.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  ground  of  incrimination,  under 
section,  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Were  you  arrested  May  8 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Just  a  minute.  Mr.  Bohrar,  is  Mr.  Sobel 
going  to  answ^er  any  questions  ? 

Mr.  Bohrar.  I  don't  think  he  will.     In  fact,  I  don't  believe  he  will. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  But  you  don't  know  for  sure  ? 

Mr.  Bohrar.  I  am  certain. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Can  we,  then,  Mr.  Bohrar,  have  an  under- 
standing that  when  he  says  "I  refuse  to  answer,"  that  we  will  under- 
stand he  is  refusing  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  Bohrar.  He  is  invoking  the  fifth  amendment. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  that  as  to"  each  question  he  will  be 
specifically  directed  to  answer  by  the  chairman  of  the  committee. 

Mr.  Bohrar.  I  understand. 

Chairman  Kefau\^er.  Without  formally  directing  him  to  answer. 

Mr.  Bohrar.  That  is  correct. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Proceed,  Mr.  Bobo. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Were  you  arrested  May  8,  1954,  at  Lincoln,  K-.  I. 

Mr.  Sobel.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  Bohrar.  Just  say  you  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  it  not  true  that  the  car  you  were  driving  contained 
a  large  amount  of  obscene  literature  when  you  were  arrested  at  Lin- 
coln, R.  I.  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  refuse  to  answer  ? 

Mr.  Sobel.  Just  a  moment,  your  Honor.  I  would  like  to  go  into 
every  detail  about  this  particular  case. 

When  I  was  arrested  for  speeding,  they  stopped  me  and  they  broke, 
the  police  broke  into  the  car,  for  the  reason  because  I  had  no  proper 
license.  They  were  registered  under  a  name,  Harold  Kantor,  to 
whom  this  car  belonged. 

They  broke  the  lock  of  the  car.  They  asked  me  for  the  keys  of 
the  trunk,  a  little  suitcase  about  2  by  lYo,  just  about  the  size  of  the 
suitcase.     They  asked  me  whether  I  have  the  keys  to  the  suitcase.     I 


told  them  I  have  not.  They  searched  me  all  over,  even  internally,  to 
look  for  the  keys,  but  they  could  not  find  the  key.  I  don't  know 
what's  in  there.     It  does  not  belong  to  me. 

They  broke  the  suitcase  open.  In  the  suitcase  they  found  various 
literature,  probably  10  books,  or  10  rolls,  or  some  pictures. 

All  in  all,  after  I  spoke  to  Mr.  Kantor  when  he  gave  me  the  car 
to  deliver  some  merchandise  to  a  store  out  in  Worcester,  he  told  me 
the  whole  thing  amounts  to  about  $200,  the  entire  thing,  and  that  was 
actually  what  to  my  knowledge  it  would  be  worth,  10  books,  10  rolls, 
and  a  few  other  little  things  in  it. 

They  arrested  me.  First  they  kept  me  overnight  and  they  put 
me  under  $1,500  bail  the  first  time,  and  about  an  hour  later  they 
raised  my  bail  and  put  in  another  charge  for  transportation. 

I  got  an  attorney  recommended  from  the  barracks,  and  this  man 
told^'me  that  he  was  going  to  charge  me  $100,  and  he  got  me  a 
bondsman.     I  paid  him  the  hundred. 

Finally  he  told  me  he  wants  $2,000  to  try  the  case.  I  thought  he 
was  only  out  for  money;  I  engaged  another  man,  but  the  judge  will 
not  let  the  release  for  that  attorney,  get  another  attorney,  unless  I 
pay  this  man  $200  additional  money,  which  I  did. 

A  hearing  was  held.  The  troopers  admitted  that  they  broke  into 
the  car,  th^v  broke  the  lock,  and  they  had  all  the  evidence  which 
they  had  right  in  that  car.  They  had  nothing  on  me  whatsoever.  I 
delivered  the  merchandise  in  Worcester,  which  I  asked  the  man  to 
let  me  have  the  car. 

This  man  pleaded  guilty,  the  same  man  who  loaned  me  the  car 
pleaded  guilty  in  Federal  court  on  January  5  for  mailing  and  trans- 
portation of  lewd  literature.     I  don't  know  what  happened  to  the 
Chairman  Kefatjver.  February  5  of  this  year  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  This  is  a  copy  of  the 

Chairman  Kefauver.  May  I  see  that? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  This  is  a  copy  of  the  pleading  [handing  to  Chairman 
Kefauver] . 

This  car  belonged  to  this  man. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  given  me,  Mr.  Sobel,  United  States 
District  Court  of  the  Southern  District  of  New  York,  United  ."States 
of  America  v.  Harold  Kantor,  before  the  Hon.  Lawrence  E.  Walsh, 
district  judge,  stenographer's  minutes. 

These  minutes  are  where  he  pleaded  guilty  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  He  pleaded  guilty.  You  see,  in  this  particular  time, 
the  case  was  on  for  about  a  year  and  a  half. 

This  car  was  registered  under  his  mother's  name,  which  I  found 
out  later.  He  is  the  one  who  let  me  use  the  car.  It  was  a  1937 
Buick,  that  he  paid  $7.5  for  it,  and  he  let  me  use  it.  I  never  knew  what 
he  had  in  the  back  of  that  car. 

Chairman  Kefau\^r.  Let  me  see  if  I  understand  this. 
You  had  Mr.  Kantor's  car  and  he  had  some — who  is  Mr.  Kantor? 
Mr.  Sobel.  Who  is  he  ? 
Chairman  Kefauver.  Yes. 

Mr.  Sobel.  Well,  a  fellow  that  I  knew,  that  he  used  to  be  m  the 
chemical  business.     I  never  knew  that  he  handled  any  of  that  stuff. 


He  happened  to  come  up  to  the  place  on  a  Friday.  When  I  told 
him  that  I  have  an  order  to  deliver  to  Worcester,  and  I  don't  know  how 
to  (i:et  there,  he  says,  "Why  don't  you  use  my  car?'' 

With  that,  he  gave  me  the  keys  and  he  told  me  he  had  some  stuff 
in  back  which  I  don't  need,  and  he  let  me  use  the  car. 

With  that  I  went  with  that  car.  I  didn't  know  nothing  about  it, 
what  was  in  that  car.  There  was  nothing  on  me  in  any  shape  or 

Chairman  Kefai^ver.  What  was  it  you  delivered  at  Worcester? 

Mr.  SoiiEL.  In  Worcester,  I  delivered  a  magazine  called  Sunshine 
and  Plealth,  that  was  a  decision  last  week  in  the  Supreme  Court  that 
is  legal  to  use  the  mail  and  sell  it. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  so  you  delivered  some  Sunshine  and 
Health  at  AVorcester? 

jVIr.  SoiiEL.  I  don't  hear. 

Cliairman  Kefauver.  You  delivered  a  magazine  Sunshine  and 
Health  at  Worcester? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  I  sold  it  to  a  store  up  there.  And  the  man  gave  me  a 
check,  which  they  found  in  my  possession,  and  he  told  them  what 
I  sold  him. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Then  you  went  on  to  Providence? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  Then  I  went  to  Providence.  I  was  going  to  go  to  a 
race  track  on  a  Saturday,  but  it  was  raining  so  bad  that  I  decided 
to  go  back  to  New  York,  which  I  was  turning,  going  to  New  York. 
I  never  stopped — they  check  everybody  in  the  wdiole  vicinity.  They 
found  a  list  in  the  car  and  they  called  everyone  of  them  when  they 
fouiid  that,  whether  they  ever  heard  of  me  or  saw  me  or  they  knew 
me.     ^i  o  one  said  that  they  knew  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  happened  in  the  case  in  Rhode  Island  ? 

]Mr.  SoBEL.  Here  is  what  happened  to  the  case :  Originally  I  got 
a  certain  man 

Chairman  KEFAU^■ER.  Did  they  let  you  out,  or  did  they  convict  you  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  I  got  an  attorney  who  told  me  that  he  will — there  is 
nothing  to  it,  that  he  is  going  to  the  Supreme  Court  instead  of  the 
district  court;  they  had  no  right  to  break  into  the  car;  they  had 
no  right  to  search  me,  the  stuli'  does  not  belong  to  me. 

After  dragging  the  case  for  about  a  year  and  paying  him  all  the 
money  that  was  due  him,  $1,000  that  I  agreed,  he  came  down  and 
he  started  to  send  me  wires  I  should  send  him  more  money,  500,  500, 
which  I  didn't.  And  he  saw  that  he  couldn't  get  any  more  money 
out  of  me,  he  says,  "The  best  thing  for  you  in  this  particular  case 
is  for  you  to  plead,  whether  no  pros,  it  is  not  a  conviction,  you  are 
letting  the  court  to  decide  whether  the  decision  in  the  case,  and  I 
will  get  a  suspended  sentence." 

After  I  pleaded  to  that  he  sent  me  a  wire  back,  which  I  have  in 
my  possession,  I  should  send  $1,000  tine,  otherwise  they  can't  do  it. 

I  told  him  why  not  withdraw  the  case  and  go  to  court  with  it.  Well, 
he  says,  "The  best  thing  to  do,  I  can't  withdraw  my  claim,"  and  that's 
what  happened.    They  gave  me  $1,000  fine. 

In  other  words,  I  was  forced  under  duress,  right  in  court,  I  told 
them  I  would  like  to  withdraw  my  case  and  try  the  case,  because  I 
never  had  anything  to  do  with  it. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Anyway,  you  paid  $1,000? 

Mr.  Sobel.  I  paid  $1,000  fine/and  costs. 


Chairman  Kefattv'er.  ^Vliere  is  Mr.  Kantor  now  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  Mr.  Kantor,  I  don't  know  where  he  is,  but  he  is  m — 
whether  he  was  sentenced  or  not,  I  don't  know. 

Chairman  Kefau's^r.  Is  he  living  now  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  I  don't  know. 

Chairman  KErAu\T:R.  This  transcript  which  shows  about  the  car, 
will  be  filed  as  an  exhibit  here  and  not  copied  in  the  record,  but  filed 
as  an  exhibit. 

(Tlie  document  above  referred  to  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  14, 
and  is  on  file  with  the  subcommittee.) 

Mr.  SoBEL.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  lawyer  had  a 

Chairman  Kefauver.  How  long  were  you  in  business  in  this  Sun- 
shine and  Health  magazine,  Mr.  Sobel? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  About  a  year  ago,  in  April,  Dr.  Boone  came  to  me,  I 
told  him  that  if  I  can  sell  those  magazines,  and  with  that  he  gave  me 
about  3,000  of  them. 

I  knew  that  you  can't  sell  them  in  New  York— no;  for  a  fact  I  had 
them  quite  awhile,  but  I  didn't  care  to  sell  them  in  New  York,  for  the 
reason  that  it  was  illegal  to  sell  them  on  the  newsstands,  and  I  didn't 
want  to  handle  them. 

But  he  came  down  to  me  with  a  decision  from  a  district  court  judge, 
admitting,  getting  an  injunction  against  the  postmaster.  The  United 
States  court  went  and  appealed  the  case  to  the  court  of  appeals,  and 
they  upheld  the  decision  of  the  district  court. 

Then  the  case  went  to  the  Supreme  Court,  it  was  last  week  or  2 
weeks  ago,  and  they  refused  to  review  the  case,  claiming  this  is  not 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  magazine  you  are  talking  about  is  called 
Sun  Bathing;  is  that  right? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  Sun  Bathing  and — they  have  about  3  or  4  different 
magazines,  but  they  are  all  on  the  similar,  they  have  been  printing 
them  for  the  last  35  years,  as  I  understood. 

Chaiman  Kefaua^er.  How  long  were  you  in  the  business  of  handling 
these  magazines? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  Well,  probably  since  that  time,  since  about  March  or 
February  or  April  1954. 

Chairman  Kefauat.r.  Who  is  this  Dr.  Boone  that  you  talk  about? 

Mr.  SoBEE.  Wliere  is  Dr.  Boone  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Well,  who  is  he  and  where  is  he? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  Well,  he  is  in  Jersey,  Mays  Landing.  Under  the  name 
Nudist  magazine,  or  something  in  that  effect. 

Chairman  KEFAU^^:R.  What  is  Dr.  Boone's  first  name,  do  you  know? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  I  don't  know.     He  is  the  president  of  the  company. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  right,  the  Supreme  Court  did  in  its 
decision  make  some  ruling  in  connection  with  some  of  these,  with  the 
Nudist  magazine  and  Sun  Bathing.     Are  you  still  in  that  business? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  is  your  regular  business,  sir? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  My  occupation  now? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Yes. 

Mr.  SoBEL.  Well,  I  sell  various  items,  like  perfume,  which  I  have 
my  own  registered  name.  And  I  also  sell  various  other  novelty  stuff, 
and  so  on. 

Chairman  Kjefauver.  Do  you  have  a  store  ? 


Mr.  SoBEL.  No.  I  hiid  quite  an  office,  but  being  the  publicity  that 
came  along,  I  had  to  curtail  all  my  activities.  I  took  just  a  mailing 
address,  which  I  still  maintain  at  the  same  place. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Where  is  your  place  of  business  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  1133  Broadway. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  AVliat  is  the  name  of  your  business  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  The  name  of  the  firm  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Yes. 

Mr.  SoBEL.  Loki  Co. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Along  with  your  business,  have  you  ever  been 
in  the  business  of  selling  pornography,  distributing  it  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  No,  sir.  1  had  a  factory  on  11th  Avenue  for  5  years 
where  I  employed  400  people  until  1949. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  had  a  factory  in  the 

ISIr.  SoBEL.  Where  I  manufactured  dolls  and  doll  carriages. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  perfume  here,  Loki,  Paris  of  New 

Mr.  SoBEL.  I  am  selling  to  various  stores  in  New  York,  and  Boston, 
and  as  a  matter  of  fact  in  various  other  places. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  never  have  been  in  this  film  business  ? 

Mr.  Sobel.  No,  sir ;  never  did. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  don't  see  why  you  came  here  prepared  to 
answer  questions,  then. 

Mr.  SoBEL.  I  don't  know. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  haven't  anything  to  hide? 

Mr.  Sobel.  I  am  charged  with  having  in  my  possession  $50,000 
worth  of  merchandise.  Evidently  I  should  be  worth  at  least  $25,000, 
but  my  records,  1  have  been  sick  in  1950  and  1951,  I  was  operated  in 
the  hospital  for  about  3,  4  weeks,  and  I  couldn't  work  after  that.  And 
then  things  didn't  move  along  fairly  well. 

I  started  a  few  things.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  last  year,  in  1954, 1  had 
a  firm  that  put  up  $15,000  to  go  in  business  with  them,  they  financed 
me  the  deal  in  the  perfume  business,  whicli  I  was  working  at  until 
this  thing  came  along. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  This  trouble  in  Rhode  Island,  is  that  the  only 
trouble  you  ever  had  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  No,  sir,  never  been  in  Rhode  Island. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  In  Providence. 

Mr.  SoBEL.  Providence;  no.  Well,  I  was  in  Providence,  probably 
I  used  to  go  to  the  races  now  and  then.  And  then  I  would  go  out  and 
try  to  buy  some  jobs  in  jewelry,  but  I  don't  think  I  was  down  there 
more  than  twice  or  three  times  during  my  lifetime. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  said,  this  time  you  got  arrested  and  where 
you  paid  a  fine  when  you  had  Mr.  Kantor's  car,  is  that  the  only  time 
you  have  been  in  trouble  with  the  law  ? 

Mr.  Sobel.  I  have  been  in  trouble  before  with  the  law.  I  have  been 
in  trouble  for  a  few  other  times.  I  have  been  in  trouble  for  not  renew- 
ing a  license  for  a  gun,  which  I  went  to  Boston,  I  stayed  there  for  a 
couple  of  years.  When  I  come  down  here  I  brought  them  back  the 
license  and  they  say  to  me,  "Well,  technically  you  are  not  guilty; 
morally  you  are  guilty,"  and  they  gave  me  a  fine-^no,  a  suspended 
sentence.     But  I  show^ed  them  I  had  a  license  in  Boston. 

At  the  time  I  brought  the  gun  back  to  the  station  house,  to  take  that 
gun  and  hold  it,  if  I  will  renew  my  license  or  not,  I  don't  know.     He 


says,  "Take  that  check  with  you,  and  if  the  license  will  not  be  renewed, 
then  you  will  bring  it  back." 

As  it  came  out,  there  was  a  fight  in  the  street.  They  searched  me 
and  picked  up  the  gun.  They  brought  me  back  to  the  station,  and 
they  verified  on  it. 

Chairman  IvEFAtn^R.  That  was  in  1930,  possession  of  a  revolver. 
You  got  a  suspended  sentence ;  is  that  it  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  That's  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  see  in  February  1934  you  were  charged 
with  forging  sweepstake  tickets. 

Mr.  SoBEL.  They  weren't  forged.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  I  worked 
for  the  Government,  for  the  Irish  Government,  a  man  by  the  name  of 
Frisco  employed  me.  I  was  getting  at  the  time  salary  and  expenses 
to  work  for  him,  for  2  years. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  So  that  was  a  mistake. 

Then  October  1934,  you  got  3  months  for  gambling;  did  you  not? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  For  gambling? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Yes. 

Mr.  SoBEL.  That  was  the  same  charge.  This  is  the  same  charge, 
gambling  and  possession  of  lottery  tickets.  That's  what  they  charged 
for,  possession  of  lottery  tickets. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  One  seems  to  have  been  in  February  1934, 
and  the  other  seems  to  have  been  in  October  1934. 

Mr.  SoBEL.  No;  it's  wrong  on  that. 

Chairman  Kefau\'er.  Then  in  July  1937,  conspiring  to  transport 
stolen  securities.      What  was  that? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  That  was  another  case  that  has  to  be  fully  explained. 

Just  a  moment,  you  fellows  are  laughing,  but  I  will  show  you  how 
justice  was  meted  out  in  a  United  States  court,  which  I  have  a  copy 
of  1937  papers,  where  tlie  papers  came  out,  "Unusual  procedure  took 
place  in  Federal  court,"  in  two  newspapers. 

I  had  an  attorney  who  died  3  days  before  the  trial.  It  tells  you 
everything  right  here.  He  died  before  the  trial,  and  I  wanted  to  get 
an  adjournment,  and  the  judge  says,  "No  adjourmnent." 

Butler  objected  to  the  adjournment,  go  on  trial.  And  I  had  an 
attorney  I  just  brought  in  for  the  day,  and  he  appeared  for  me  and 
he  told  the  judge  that  the  attorney  died,  which  they  knew,  and  they 
wanted  an  adjournment  just  to  get  the  papers  that  my  man,  that  my 
attorney  had  in  his  possession,  because  everything  is  locked  on  account 
of  his  death.     They  refused  to  give  an  adjournment. 

Have  you  ever  heard  of  it,  like  it? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  If  you  want  to  file  something  here,  we  will 
make  that  an  exhibit. 

Mr.  Sobel.  It  is  very  interesting,  what  was  done  [handing  document 
to  Chairman  Kefauver] .  They  promised  me,  after  I  refused ;  finally 
they  coaxed  me  and  threatened  me  with  all  kinds  of  threats.  If  I 
don't  plead  guilty  I  will  get  10  years,  or  so  many  years. 

As  a  result  I  pleaded  guilty.  The  district  attorney  promised  me 
I  will  get  3  months.  Before,  when  it  came  up  before  the  judge  it  came 
a  year  and  a  day. 

But  they  claim  here  through  my  efforts,  they  bought  $12,000  worth 
of  stolen  stock  in  my  office,  but  the  people  who  have  robbed  the  bank, 
the  president  of  the  bank,  and  a  brewery  man,  for  $250,000,  they  got 


a  suspended  sentence.  It  is  all  on  records.  You  can  have  this  and 
read  it. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  all  of  that  in  here  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  No ;  it  doesn't  say  about  them,  but  I  know  it. 

The  papers  said  it.  They  got  a  suspended  sentence,  after  robbing 
the  public  for  a  quarter  of  a  million  dollars. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  given  me  a  New  Haven  paper  dated 
Tuesday,  October  26,  1937. 

Mr.  SoBEL.  That's  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  this  is  the  front  page.     It  says: 

Stock  Thkft  "Fence"  Given  Prison  Term 

Herman  Sobol,  49.  New  York  City,  alleged  "fence"  who  is  reported  to  have 
sold  stolen  securities  at  $18,000  to  George  Brott,  former  cashier  of  the  East 
Hampton  Bank  &  Trust  Company  of  East  Hampton,  was  sentenced  to  1  year  and 
a  day. 

What  is  that  fence ;  I  didn't  know  what  that  meant. 

Mr.  Sobel.  What's  that? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  does  the  word  "fence"  mean  in  this 
story  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  A  "fence"  would  mean  a  receiver. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  So  they  charged  you  with  receiving  the  se- 
curities ? 

Mr.  Sobel.  No.  They  charged  me  with  selling  them,  for  conspiracy 
to  sell  them.  But  I  never  sold  any,  nor  have  I  ever  bought  any  of 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  this  be  inserted  in  the  record. 

(The  information  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  15,"  and  is  as  follows:) 

[From  the  New  Haven   (Conn.)   Evening  Register,  October  26,  1937] 

Stock  Theft  "Fence"  Given  Prison  Term — New  Yobker  Also  Fined  $2,000 
BY  Feoeral  Court  in  East  Hampton  Bank  Fraud 

Herman  Sobol,  49,  New  York  City,  alleged  fence  who  is  reported  to  have  sold 
stolen  securities  at  $18,000  to  George  Brott,  former  cashier  of  the  Bast  Hampton 
Bank  &  Trust  Co.  of  East  Hampton,  was  sentenced  to  1  vear  and  a  day  in  the 
Federal  Penitentiary  at  Lewisburg,  Pa.,  by  Judge  Carrol  C.  Hincks  in  the  United 
States  district  court  today  after  he  had  entered  a  plea  of  guilty  to  a  charge  of 
conspiracy  to  transport  stolen  securities. 

In  addition  to  the  penitentiary  term,  Sobol  was  fined  $2,000,  this  to  be  paid 
before  he  is  released  from  his  sentence. 

United  States  attorney  Robert  P.  Butler  informed  the  court  that  Sobol  was 
1  of  0  persons  involved  in  the  affairs  of  the  defunct  East  Hampton  bank.  He  said 
that  Sobol  was  a  fence  who  obtained  :jOO  shares  of  Noranda  Mines.  Ltd.  common 
stock  valued  at  $18,000  in  1936  and  sold  them  to  Brott  and  one  Harry  E.  Price 
of  Hartford,  for  $1,200.  These  securities  were  later  used  by  Brott  as  collateral 
to  secure  fake  loans  in  the  East  Hampton  bank,  it  was  charged. 

Mr.  Butler  said  that  when  the  affairs  of  the  East  Hampton  Bank  became 
known  in  1936  an  investigation  revealed  the  stolen  securities  which  were  left 
as  collateral  for  notes  signed  by  Brott  as  cashier  of  the  bank. 

name  forged 

The  stocks.  Mr.  Butler  said,  were  stolen  from  the  desk  of  R.  Thornl)erry,  an 
officer  of  the  Nova  Scotia  ISank  in  New  York.  How  they  got  into  the  hand  of 
Sobol  he  said  he  did  not  know.  The  shares  are  issued  in  the  name  of  William 
E.  Cunningham,  whose  name  was  forged  to  the  certificates. 

Mr.  Butler  said  that  the  person  who  forged  the  securities  was  known,  but  has 
not  yet  been  apprehended.    He  said  the  man  would  probably  be  apprehended  later. 


Sobol  appeared  at  first  on  a  not  guilty  plea.  He  was  represented  by  J.  Michael 
'Sullivan  of  New  York  City,  prominent  criminal  lawyer,  who  asked  the  court  for 
an  adiournment  of  the  case  today  declaring  that  he  was  called  in  at  the  last 
minute  to  represent  Sobol  when  previous  counsel  died,  and  therefore  had  no  time 
to  prepare  his  case. 


Mr  Butler  objected  to  any  adjournment  declaring  that  he  had  witnesses 
present  and  that  Sobol,  up  to  2  weeks  ago,  had  emitloyed  David  Paley.  Judge 
Hincks  turned  down  the  plea  for  an  adjournment  and  ordered  Mr.  Sullivan 
to  proceed  with  the  case.  However,  Mr.  Sullivan  said  that  the  defendant  would 
stand  mute  rather  than  go  to  trial  unprepared. 

Judge  Hincks  then  asked  if  the  defense  counsel  would  desire  a  recess  to 
inspect  the  indictment,  and  it  was  allowed.  It  was  during  the  recess  that  Sobol 
■decided  to  change  his  plea.  ,  ,        . 

liank  Commission  Walter  Perry  was  among  the  si>ectators  in  court. 

Mr.  SoBEL.  That's  what  happened  in  cases  where  you  have  no  money 
to  fight  the  cases  and  you  are  broke. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  was  up  in  Connecticut  m  1937,  was  it 

not  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  That's  the  one ;  that's  the  case. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Now  here  in  1937  they  have  you  charged  with 
transporting  stolen  securities  out  in  Pennsylvania. 

Mr.  SoBEL.  This  is  the  same  identical  case  that  you  are  referring 
to  now.  It  happened,  it  took  place— I  was  in  New  York.  I  was  never 
in  Connecticut.  But  the  transaction  took  place  in  Connecticut.  They 
had  him  indicted.    Then  they  held  me  as  a  conspirator  for  selling  it. 

Chairman  Kefau-vtsr.  Did  they  try  you  down  in  Pennsylvania  later, 

Mr.  SoBEL.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Ivefauver.  Didn't  you  get  charged  down  in  Pennsyl- 
vania ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  With  what? 

Chairman  Ivefauver.  Didn't  they  make  a  charge  against  you  in 
Pennsylvania  ? 

Mr.  Sobel.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefau\t3R.  Never  had  any  trouble  in  Pennsylvania  ? 

Mr.  Sobel.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Wliat  is  this  July  1937,  National  Stolen 
Property  Act? 

Mr.  Sobel.  What's  that?    National  what? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  National  Stolen  Property  Act,  1  year  and  1 
day,  and  a  $2,000  fine. 

Mr,  Sobel.  This  is  the  same  thing,  right  here. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Then  this  other  thing  was  May  8, 1954,  trans- 
porting obscene  literature.  That  is  the  one  you  are  talking  about  at 
Lincoln,  R.  I.? 

Mr.  Sobel.  That's  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Bobo,  do  you  have  any  questions  you 
want  to  ask? 

Mr.  BoBO.  I  have  a  few  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Did  you  ever  sell  any  pornographic  film  to  Mr.  Harold  Kantor  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  ever  have  any  business  dealings  other  than  this 
one  time  ^^  ith  Mr.  Kantor  i 


Mr.  SoBEL.  No,  sir.  Except  about  2  or  3  years  back,  it  was  the  alco- 
holic business  in  Jersey,  and  I  had  some  deal  with  him  trying  to  get 
some  perfume  out  of  him. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  a  Mr.  Fred  Berson  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  Who? 

Mr.  BoBO.  Fred  Berson,  B-e-r-s-o-n  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  No. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  never  approached  or  talked  or  did  any  type  of  busi- 
ness with  Mr.  Berson  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  Don't  know  him. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Have  you  ever  done  any  business  in 
Brooklyn  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoHRAR.  Did  you  hear  the  question?  Did  you  ever  do  any 
business  in  Brooklyn? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  What  kind  of  business? 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  ever  done  any  business  in  Brooklyn? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  Well,  I  sold  some  merchandise  up  there,  but  I  didn't 
sell  any — except  perfume,  probably,  or  some  other  materials,  like 
household  goods. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  have  some  business  with  Delaware 
Wired  Music  Co.  in  Wilmington,  Del.  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  know  that  company  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  No ;  never  heard  of  them. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  never  heard  of  them? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Would  you  make  phone  calls  to  there  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  Today  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  No  ;  to  this  Delaware  Wired  Music  Co.  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  In  Wilmington  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Yes. 

]Mr.  SoBEL.  There  were  phone  calls  made  by  a  fellow — if  this  is 
the  fellow— who  gives  out  information  on  races,  and  I  think  I  had 
a  fellow  that  was  in  my  office — I  mean,  he  used  to  come  up  occa- 
sionally— and  told  me  he  wants  to  make  a  few  long  distance  calls. 
And  I  think  those  calls  were  made  to  Wilmington  to  get  results  on 
races,  or  something  to  that  effect. 

The  same  thing  happened  in  Baltimore. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  is  the  Armstrong  Sports  Service  in 
Baltimore  ? 

Mr.  Sobel.  That's  right.  If  he  made  the  calls,  I  don't  know  any- 
thing about  it.    Whatever  calls  he  made,  he  ])aid  me  for  them. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Was  that  in  connection  with  any  bookmak- 
ing  business  ? 

Mr,  Sobel.  I  don't  know  if  he  was  connected,  but  he  was  using 
the  phone.    Probably  a  couple  of  times  a  week  for  about  a  month  or  so. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  have  a  long  list  of  calls  that  you  have 
made,  and  made  back  and  forth  to  you,  either  by  you  or  to  you, 
from  a  whole  bunch  of  w^hat  appear  to  be  book  stores  or  fun  shops, 
and  things  of  that  sort.  Do  you  know  about  those?  I  could  name 
them  off  here  to  you. 


Mr.  SoBEL.  If  you  will  ask  me  the  names  I  will  probably  recollect 
and  recall. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  will  just  hand  you  this  memorandum  and 
let  you  see  it.    Here  are  three  pages  of  them  [handing  to  Mr.  Sobel] . 

Mr.  SoBEL.  George  Magic  Store,  I  did  call  them  a  few  times.  As  a 
matter  of  fact,  I  sold  him  some  picture  magazines,  the  same  thing  that 
I — I  also  had  some  stuff  from  a  film  out  in  Chicago.  As  a  matter  of 
fact,  they  are  suing  me  for  2,000  books  that  they  sent  to  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  kind  of  books  were  those? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  Those  are  picture  books,  just  models,  you  know,  nothing 
else  but  models.  They  are  selling  them  right  along,  they  are  sending 
them  through  the  mails.  I  have  the  name,  the  Magic — they  have 
about  three  different  titles.  I  have  the  papers,  because  Dun  &  Brad- 
street  were  trying  to  serve  me  with  a  summons. 

Chairman  kEFAIT^T.R.  He  is  trying  to  sue  you  for  books  that  he 
claims  you  have  not  paid  for? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  What? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  he  trying  to  sue  you  for  books  he  claims  you 
have  not  paid  for  ? 

Mr.  Sobel.  That's  right. 

When  this  case  came  up  to  Providence,  of  course  they  teletyped  it  to 
the  different  stations  here  in  New  York.  And  when  I  got  back  on  a 
Sunday  morning,  Monday  morning  the  police  were  in  my  hotel  and 
the  manager  let  them  in  to  search  my  room.  I  found  out  only  about  it 
3  weeks  later,  3  months  later. 

When  I  got  back  to  the  office  on  a  Monday  morning  there  were  also 
police  down  there  searching  the  rooms,  the  place  of  business.  And 
they  went  away.  But  they  did  find  in  there  the  magazine  that  I  got 
from  Chicago.  They  also  found  the  magazines  that  were  from  the 
Sunshine  and  Health. 

They  were  there,  and  then  they  sent  over  the  inspector.  The  in- 
spector came  back  and  took  two  of  those  books  with  him. 

About  a  week  later  the  same  officers  came  in;  they  says  they  got 
orders  from  the  inspector  to  take  those  books  out,  although  they  were 
laying  in  a  corner  all  tightly  packed. 

They  took  them  out  and  they  took  them  to  tlie  property  clerk.  I 
was  arraigned  in  special  sessions  court,  and  the  case  was  dismissed. 
And  still  in  this  clay  I  couldn't  get 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  were  buying  books  from  somebody  in 
Chicago,  and  he  is  trying  to  sue  you.  Did  vou  buy  a  lot  of  books  from 

Mr.  SoBEL.  Did  I  what  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Did  you  buy  a  lot  of  books  from  him  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  I  bought,  yes.  But'l  told  him,  if  it  weren't  for  the 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Where  did  you  buy  books  from,  Mr.  Sobel? 
Chicago  and  anywhere  else  ? 

Mr.  Sobel.  And  those  people  here. 

Chairman  KErAu\T.R.  What  peo])le  here  ? 

Mr.  Sobel.  The  Sunshine  and  Health,  in  Mays  Landing. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  would  you  do  with  the  books  ? 

Mr.  Sobel.  They  took  the  books  away,  and  I  never  got  them  back. 


So  I  reported  to  the  property  clerk  to  claim  the  books  over  there. 
They  took  it  out  of  my  place.  Never  offered  to  sell  them,  right  here 
or  any  other  place,  except  out  of  town. 

Cliairman  Kefauvek.  Your  counsel  has  a  list  there  of  2  or  3  pages 
of  fun  shops  where  you  called  back  and  forth.  What  would  all  that 
be  about?    I  don't  want  to  go  into  the  details. 

Mr.  SoBEL.  This  probably  would  be  the  Wilmington  number.  Hobo- 
ken  number  I  don't  know.  Long  Beach,  St.  Louis — that  is  one  of  the 
men  that  was  in  my  office,  Schlesser.  calling  St.  Louis.  Boston  is 
Jack  Goldberg.    I  was  selling  him  perfume. 

Philadelphia,  Stanton  Bernstein;  I  don't  know  him. 

Jack  Goldberg  again  in  Boston. 

Stone  in  Boston :  I  sold  him  a  lot  of  perfume  for  a  firm  that  I  repre- 
sented at  the  time,  and  I  was  working  on  a  commission  basis,  and  I 
])robably  called  him  a  few  times. 

Stone  Bros.,  they  are  on  Hanover  Street,  this  is  the  right  address. 
1  spoke  to  him  a  number  of  times. 

Now,  Irving,  this  is  a  man  that  I  sold  him  magazines;  he  is  a  book- 
store there. 

Chairman  Kefaua'er.  Hand  me  back  the  book,  please. 

(Document  returned  to  Chairman  Kefauver.) 

Chairman  Kefauver.  So  those  do  represent  some  kind  of  calls  back 
and  forth  about  something,  do  they  ? 

Mr.  SoBEL.  That's  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  know  Al  Stone  ? 

Mr.  Sobel.  No  ;  I  don't  know  him. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Never  saw  him  before  ?  • 

Mr.  SoBEL.  No. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  How  about  Mr.  Mishkin,  do  you  know  him? 

Mr.  Sobel.  No  ;  I  don't  know  him  either. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  not  had  any  business  with  Mr. 
Mishkin  at  all? 

Mr.  Sobel.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Rubinstein,  of  Brooklyn? 

Mr.  Sobel.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Who  is  Francis  J.  Pelletier? 

Mr.  Sobel.  ^Y\\o  ? 

Chairman  Kefau^'er.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Pelletier? 

Mr.  Sobel.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Bobo,  anything  else? 

Mr.  BoBo.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  thank  you  for  answering  the  questions. 
I  think  we  got  along  a  whole  lot  better  than  if  you  refused  to  answer. 
Don't  you  think  so,  Mr.  Bohrar?. 

Mr.  BoiiRAR.  I  think  so.  He  did  just  exactly  what  he  told  me  he 
wouldn't  do. 

Mr.  Sobel.  If  you  people  came  and  checked  a  picture,  I  couldn't 
liold  out  any  more  but  tell  the  truth.  This  is  actually  the  truth.  It 
could  be  verified  through  the  court  over  there,  with  my  |)ayment  of 
the  money,  and  the  refusal  to  withdraw  my  plea  after  I  gave  the  man 
all  that  money  w^e  agreed  to,  and  I  refused  to  go  to  court,  after  he 
had  all  the  minutes  written  up. 

Cliairman  Kefauver.  Your  experience  with  lawyers  has  not  been 
ver}'  good,  has  it  ? 

65263—55 12 


Mr.  SoBEL.  That's  when  you  go  through  life,  it  happens. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  hope  you  don  t  get  mixed  up  with  these 
things  any  more. 

Thank  you,  Mr.  Sobel. 

We  will  have  about  a  5-minute  recess. 

(Whereupon,  a  five-minute  recess  was  taken.) 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  subcommittee  is  glad  to  have  a  visit 
from  Dr.  Herbert  C.  Mayer,  who  is  a  distinguished  former  college 
president,  who  has  given  the  subconnnittee  many  worthwhile  sugges- 
tions and  helped  us  on  several  problems.  We  are  glad  to  have  you 
with  us.  Doctor. 

Mr.  Bobo,  who  is  our  next  witness  ? 

Mr.  Bobo.  Mr.  Abe  Rotto. 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  object  to  the  television. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  ask  the  cooperation  of  the  press. 


(Abe  Rotto  was  sworn.). 

Mr.  Levine.  I  am  H.  Robert  Levine,  154  Nassau  Street,  New  York 

Chairman  Kefau\'er.  You  are  Mr.  Rotto's  attorney,  sir? 

Mr.  Levene.  Yes;  I  am. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Proceed,  Mr.  Bobo. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Your  full  name  is  Abe  Rotto,  R-o-t-t-o  ? 

Mr.  Rotto.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  is  your  address,  Mr.  Rotto? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  55  Linden  Boulevard,  Brooklyn  26. 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  what  business  are  you  engaged  ? 

Mr.  RoTTo.  At  the  present  time  I  am  selling  novelties,  pens,  im- 
ported lighters,  gadgets,  balloons,  various  things  for  candy  stores 
and  small  drugstores. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Would  you  speak  up,  Mr.  Rotto  ? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bobo.  From  where  do  you  conduct  your  business  ? 

Mr.  RoTTo.  From  55  Linden  Boulevard. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Mr.  Rotto,  are  you  acquainted  with  a  Mr.  William 
Landers  ? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of  the 
fifth  amendment. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Levine,  I  will  direct  the  witness  to  answer 
questions  that  I  w^ish  answered.  Can  we  let  the  record  show  that 
where  he  refuses  to  answer  that  he  is  directed  to  answer  ? 

Mr.  Levine.  Yes ;  and  that  he  refuses. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  that  when  he  says  he  refuses  to  answer, 
we  will  have  it  understood  that  that  is  under  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  Levine.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Were  you  engaged  in  partnership  with  Mr.  William 
Landers  in  the  Landers  Novelty  Co.,  220  Fifth  Avenue,  New  York? 

Mr.  Rotto.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of  the 
fifth  amendment. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  will  let  the  record  show  what  provision 
of  the  Constitution  you  are  refusing  to  answer  under.  That  is  under- 


Mr.  Levine.  Yes. 

Mr.  RoTTO.  Thank  you. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Ely  Goldsmith  of  1321  Nostrand  Ave- 
nue, Brooklyn  ? 

Mr.  EoTTO.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Were  you  arrested  with  Mr.  Goldsmith  on  February  12. 
1954,  for  the  possession  and  sale  of  indecent  books,  films,  and  photos  f 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Were  you  released  on  $250  bail  after  this  arrest  ? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  Ivefauver.  Mr.  Bobo,  do  you  have  the  police  record  ? 

For  the  record,  the  report  on  which  you  base  your  questions  may  be 
put  in  the  record. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Were  you  arrested  on  July  29,  1954,  at  197  Clarkson 
Street  for  having  in  your  possession  indecent  films,  books  and  photos? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  I  hand  you  here  a  list  of  films  and  pornographic  material 
nnd  ask  you  is  this  a  list  of  the  material  that  was  found  in  your 
possession  as  of  that  date  [handing  to  Mr.  Rotto]  ? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  it  be  put  in  the  record  to  show  on  what  the 
question  was  based. 

(The  document  above  referred  to  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  16,"  and 
is  as  follows:) 

Exhibit  No.  10 

.July  29,  1954. 

At  11 :  30  a.  m.,  .July  29,  1954,  Patrolman  John  Hayes,  No.  9404,  B  H.  B.  P.  S., 
<issisted  by  Patrolman  Piay  Lamas,  No.  7709,  B.  H.  B.  P.  S.,  arrested  one  Abe 
Rotto,  male,  white,  61  years.  United  States,  address  .55  Linden  Boulevard. 
(Arrest  No.  342,  71st  precinct)  Charge  No.  1,  violation  of  section  1141  P.  L. 
(indecent  films,  books,  and  photos).  Charge  No.  2,  violation  of  section  1142 
P.  L.  (contraceptives,  "French  ticklers")  having  had  in  his  possession  with  intent 
to  sell  and  stored  in  premises  a  store  (first  floor)  197  Clarkson  Street  (4-story 
brick,  stores,  and  dwelling),  owned  by  E.  Miller,  197  Clarkson  Street,  second 

Following  removed  and  held  as  evidence : 

Film :  Rolls 

8-mm.  film   (indecent  photos) 230 

16-mm.  film 84 

Oriswald  film  splicer,  R2-R4.3G62 1 

Mansfield  film  splicer.  Model  No.  950 1 

Books  and  booklets  :  Copies 

Indecent  books,  Boudoir  Secret 227 

Indecent  booklets : 

Lazy   Lovers 316 

The  Honeymoon 130 

Books : 

Weekend  at  Nudist  Camp  (price,  $10  per  copy) 201 

Playing  With  a  Mistress 60 

Booklets : 

Various 103 

Midnight  Intimacies 18 

Books,  Affairs  of  Tronbadore  (price  $25) .^7 


Books  and  booklets — Continued 

Booklets :  Copies 

London  Stage 38 

Jaws  of  Fate 26 

Erratic    Professor 21 

Hollywood  in  June 63 

Various 1, 130 

Wedding  Bells  and  others 740 

Wally  and  the  King  and  others 956 

Photos : 

Sets  inuecent  photos  (25  photos  per  set) 29 

Sets  lewd  photographs 12V^ 

Sets  of  lewd  postcards — 4 

Lewd  photos 300 

Decks  lewd  playing  cards 450 

Package  pornographic  poses 1 

Slides,  immoral  poses 9 

Pieces  obscene  objects 49 

Obscene  novelty  pins 202 

Contraceptives  "French  ticklers"  (violation  Public  Law  1142) 183 

Small  suggestive  telescopes 160 

(Portion  of  film  shown  in  presence  of  defendant  at  71st  precinct,  who  admitted 

Also  defendant's  auto,  1949  Pontiac.  4-door.  license  No.  6Y-8066  seized  and 
held  as  evidence.  Found  in  raito :  1  roll  8-mm.  film  and  1  roll  16-mm.  film  and 
miscellaneous  cards  and  salesbooks. 

Followinu'  present  at  scene :  D.  C.  I.  Goldberg.  D.  I.  Bradley,  Capt.  William  Fleig, 
Patrolman  Robert  Kirschmeier.  No.  14250 ;  Arthur  Long,  No.  4644 ;  Alex  Green- 
wald.  No.  6650 ;  Patrolman  Nolan,  legal  bureau  ;  Assistant  District  Attorney  Gaza. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  it  not  true  that  yon  have  been  in  the  business  of  selling 
pornography  since  1935  ? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Al  Stone,  alias  Abraham  Rubin  ? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  it  not  true  that  yon  have  been  purchasino;  and  dis- 
tributino-  pornography  from  Mr.  Al  Rubin,  Mr.  Al  Stone,  alias  Abra- 
ham Rubin,  since  1945  ? 

Mr.  RoTTO,  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  it  not  true  that  Mr.  Al  Stone  sold  pornographic  mate- 
rials to  you  when  you  were  in  a  partnership  with  "William  Landers? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  Bono.  Is  it  not  true  that  he  also  supplied  you  with  pornographic 
materials  at  197  Clarkson  Street,  Brooklyn,  N!  Y.? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Is  it  not  true  that  you  refused  to  divulge  the  names  of 
your  suppliers  of  pornographic  material  because  you  feared  bodily 
harm  ? 

Mr.  RoTTo.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Mr.  Rotto,  you  are 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Rotto,  are  you  refusing  to  answer  any  of 
these  questions  because  of  fear  of  retaliation,  what  might  be  done  to 
you  ? 

(Mr.  Rotto  confers  with  Mr.  I^evine.) 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  stand  on  m}^  refusal,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  did  not  understand.  Are  you  in 
about  which  you  can  tell  us  at  the  present  time? 

Mr.  Rotto.  I  told  the  counsel  what  business  I  am  in. 

Chairman  Kefau\ter.  How  big  a  business  is  that  ? 


Mr.  RoTTO.  Very  small,  sir. 

Chairman  Ketauver.  Do  you  sell  just  in  your  shop  or  do  you  get 
out  on  the  street? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  have  no  shop ;  I  go  out  soliciting  the  business. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  go  out  what? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  go  out  selling  these  items. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  go  out  selling  the  items  about  which 
you  are  talking? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Where  do  you  sell  them? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  just  got  started ;  I  just  got  a  few,  just  a  handful  of  cus- 
tomers I  called  on. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  sell  in  Brooklyn? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauvter.  On  what  street  do  you  w'ork  ? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  Wherever  I  can  land,  sir.  No  street.  I  am  not  a  street- 
corner  hawker,  sir.  I  walk  into  a  store  and  I  try  to  sell  the  items 
that  I  have. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  right,  IVIr.  Bobo ;  anything  else? 

Mr.  Bobo.  Have  you  ever  been  employed  as  a  salesman  for  the  Times 
Square  Corp.? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Have  you  ever  received  any  telephone  calls  from  Mr.  Al 
Stone,  alias  Abraham  Rubinstein? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Do  you  know  Edgar  Maynard  Levy,  of  Washington, 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  ever  done  any  business  with  Mr.  Levy  ? 

Mr.  RoTTO.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Well,  Mr.  Rotto,  we  will  keep  you  under  con- 
tinuing subpena  subject  to  further  call  of  the  committee,  upon  notice 
to  you  or  your  counsel,  Mr.  Leviiie.     That  is  all  now. 

Mr.  RoTTO.  Thank  you,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Call  our  next  witness. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Mr.  Eugene  Maletta. 

Mr.  Lazer.  My  client  will  object  to  the  use  of  television. 


(Mr.  Maletta  was  sworn  by  the  chairman.) 

Chairman  Kefauier.  Mr.  Maletta — by  the  way,  what  is  your  name, 

Mr.  Lazer.  Leon  D.  Lazer,  120-09  Liberty  Avenue,  Richmond  Hill, 
N.  Y. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Richmond  Hill,  N.  Y.  ? 

Mr.  Lazer.  Richmond  Hill ;  yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Maletta,  what  is  your  address  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  188-29  120th  Avenue,  St.  Albans,  N.  Y. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  right,  Mr.  Bobo.  You  ask  Mr.  Maletta 
your  questions. 

How  old  are  you,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  Twenty-eight. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  me  ask  one  or  two  questions. 


Mr.  BoBO.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Were  you  born  here  in  New  York  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Where  did  you  go  to  school  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  I  don't  want  to  get  it  in  the  papers. 

Mr.  Lazer.  You  have  got  to  answer  the  questions. 

Mr.  Maletfa.  I  went  to  P.  S.  62,  P.  S.  108.  Then  I  went  to  Stuyve- 
sant  High  School,  and  then  to  City.  I  finished  school  after  I  came- 
out  of  the  Army  in  Jamaica  High  School  on  Long  Island. 

Chairman  Kefaua-er.  Do  you  w^ant  to  tell  us  what  business  you 
are  in  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  I  am  in  the  printing  business,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  is  the  name  of  your  company  ? 

Mr.  ]\Ialetta.  Pilgrim  Press. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  103-43  Lefferts  Boulevard,  Richmond  Hill? 

Mr.  Maletta.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  started  in  this  about  1950  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  that  a  corporation  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  No,  sir ;  it  is  sole  ownership. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  How  large  a  press  is  this  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  I  have  a  fairly  large  place,  Senator. 

Chairman  Kefai^  er.  How  many  people  do  you  employ  ? 

Mr.  JNIaletta.  I  employ  three,  sir,  plus  my  wife  who  helps  me  out. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  do  you  print  at  this  press  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  We  print  any  printing  job  at  all.  Senator,  any  type  of 
printing.  We  do  business  cards,  any  type  of  printing  that  is  called 
for  in  the  normal  course  of  an  office  work,  or  anything  such  as  that. 

Chairman  Kefau^'er.  Did  you  print  Nights  of  Horror  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  under  the  fifth 
amendment,  that  it  may  tend  to  incriminate  me.  Senator. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  will  have  to  direct  you  to  answer  it. 

Mr.  Maletta.  I  would  still  have  to  refuse.  Senator  under  the  fifth 

Chairman  Kefaum^r.  Can  we  understand,  then,  Mr.  Lazer,  that 
when  the  questions  are  asked,  Mr.  Maletta  will  be  directed  to  answer. 

Mr.  Lazer.  Yes ;  that  is  agreed  to.  Senator. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  if  he  refuses  to  answer  we  will  under- 
stand that  that  is  under  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  Lazer.  That  is  agreed  to. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  right,  IMr.  Bobo. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Mr.  Maletta,  did  you  ever  have  in  your  possession  plates 
used  for  printing  Nights  of  Horror  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Mr.  Maletta,  have  you  ever  been  arrested  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  It  is  not  true  that  you  were  arrested  in  New  York  for 
printing  and  having  in  your  possession  obscene  literature  under  the 
title  of  Nights  of  Horror  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Is  it  not  true  that  the  plates  which  you  had  in  your  pos- 
session were  furnished  to  you  by  Mr.  Eddie  Mishkin  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  Kefautver.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Eddie  Mishkin  ? 


Mr.  Maletta.  I  refuse  to  answer,  Senator. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  How  large  is  this  business  of  yours;  what 
is  your  gross  business  a  year? 

Mr.  Maletta.  Well,  I  don't  have  my  tax  forms:  they  have  it. 
But  I  think  last  year  I  did— I  am  not  sure,  Senator;  I  mean,  every 
day  I  do  business.  But  I  think  I  did  about  between  thirty-five  and 
forty  thousand  dollars.     I  am  not  sure  exactly.  Senator. 

Chairman  Kefau\"er.  I  understand  that  the  reports  you  have  given 
here  show  forty-odd-thousand  dollars. 

Mr.  Maletta.  I  will  tell  you  the  truth,  all  I  did  was  sign  the  form. 
My  accountant  comes  every  month,  and  he  does  it. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  Mr.  Levine  your  regular  lawyer — I  mean 
Mr.  Lazer? 

Mr.  Lazer.  May  I  make  a  statement.  Your  Honor? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Yes. 

Mr.  Lazer.  Bather.  Senator.  I  represent  Mr.  Maletta  in  some, 
matters,  and  I  don't  in  some  other  matters. 

I  think  you  might  describe  me  as  one  of  his  lawj^ers. 

Chairman  Kefau\"er.  All  right.     Thank  you,  sir. 

Continue,  Mr.  Bobo. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Mr.  Maletta,  when  did  you  first  begin  in  the  printing 
business  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  I  first  began  in  the  printing  business  working  for 
someone  else,  sir,  after  I  came  out  of  the  Army. 

Mr.  BoBO.   "\^nien  did  you  first  establish  the  Pilgrim  Press? 

Mr.  Malett\4.   I  think  1950.     I  think  I  am  in  it  5  years. 

Mr.  BoBo.  At  that  time  what  was  your  net  worth,  Mr.  Maletta  ? 

Mr.  MaletTxV.  To  start  my  business  I  borrowed  money,  to  be  exact. 

Mr.  BoBO.  From  whom  did  you  borrow  this  money  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  I  borrowed  money  from  my  mother,  and  later  on 
from  banks  to  help  increase  the  business. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Have  you  ever  borrowed  any  money  from  Mr.  Eddie 
Mishkin  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  is  your  net  worth  as  of  today,  Mr.  Maletta? 

Mr.  Maj.etta.  I  will  estimate.  I  could  not  say  exactly.  I  have 
about  $35,000  worth  of  equipment  and  fixtures,  plus  stock. 

Mr.  Bobo.  In  the  past  4  years  you  have  purchased  most  of  this 
equipment  valued  at  approximately  $35,000  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Was  all  the  income  you  derived  from  printing,  stationery, 
business  cards,  and  items  of  that  type? 

Mr.  Maletta.  I  refuse  to  answer  this. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  anyone  furnish  you  the  money  to  purchase  the  equip- 
ment which  you  are  now  using  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  No;  no  one  furnished  me  with  any  money,  except  the 
banks.    I  did  borrow  from  various  banks. 

Mr.  Bono.  Mr.  Maletta.  have  you  ever  printed  anv  memo  pads 
entitled  "Things  To  Do  Today"  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.    I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  ever  sell  any  of  these  memo  pads  to  Mr.  Eddie 
Mishkin,  or  the  Kingsley  Book  Store  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Mr.  Bobo.  Did  you  buy  an  offset  press  at  the  figure  of  $5,000  ? 


Mr,  Maletta.  Yes.    I  bought  it  from  Craig  &  O'Kane  Corp. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  receive  any  of  the  funds  for  purchasing  this 
press,  Mr.  Eddie  Mishkin  ? 

Mr.  Mai.etta.  I  refuse  to  answer  that. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  an  offset  press  the  type  of  ]n-ess  that  uses  phites  to 
present  printed  matter  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  If  I  interpret  you,  in  other  words,  it  uses  phxtes  to 
reproduce ;  and  that's  it. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  ever  printed  any  books  or  magazines  of  any 

Mr.  Maletta.  I  have  j^rinted  various  books  and  literature. 

Cliairman  KE^Au^^:R.  Is  it  the  Nights  of  Horror — do  you  know  this 
Cosmo  Boy — do  you  know  the  book  Xiglits  of  Horoor  ? 

Mr.  Maletta.  I  refuse  to  answer  that. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Very  welh  I  guess  that  is  all,  Mr.  Maletta. 
We  may  want  to  call  you  back  again,  sir. 

Mr.  Lazer.  We  will  hold  ourselves  ready. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  should  say  that  a  number  of  these  witnesses 
plead  the  fifth  amendment,  all  of  these  matters  will  be  studied  by  the 
staif  of  the  committee  and  submitted  to  the  whole  committee  for  such 
action  as  may  be  indicated. 

I  must  say  that  personally  I  don't  see  the  justification  for  the  plea 
in  answer  to  many  of  the  questions  that  have  been  asked  by  counsel. 
We  have  had  before  us  some  })eople  who  the  records  show  are  substan- 
tial people  in  this  pornographic  business,  Mr.  Mishkin  particularly, 
whose  name  appears  as  one  of  the  big  operators,  the  kingpins  in  the 
business,  in  a  good  part  of  the  country. 

I  cannot  say  what  will  be  the  action  on  some  of  these  pleas,  but  they 
w^ill  be  presented  to  the  committee,  and  my  personal  recommendation 
will  be  to  the  committee  that  the  ])leas  are  not  justified  in  answer  to  a 
good  many  questions  by  counsel. 

Who  is  our  next  witness  ? 

Mr.  BoBo.  ]\Ir.  Lou  Shomer. 


(Mr.  Shomer  was  sworn  by  the  Chairman.) 

Chairman  Kefau\'er.  You  are  counsel  ? 

Mr.  Rachsteix.  Yes,  sir.    Jacob  Rachstein,  E-a-c-h-s-t-e-i-n. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  is  your  address,  Mr.  Rachstein? 

Mr.  Rachstein.  280  Broadway,  New  York. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  counsel  here  for  Mr.  Shomer? 

Mr.  Rachstein.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  right,  Mr.  Bobo. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Would  you  give  us  your  full  name? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Louis  Shomer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  is  your  present  address,  Mr.  Shomer  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  1541  East  Fifth  Street,  Brooklyn. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Is  that  Brooklyn,  N.  Y.  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Mr.  Shomer,  in  what  business  are  you  engaged? 

Mr.  Shomer.  In  the  real-estate  business. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Would  you  speak  up  so  I  can  hear  you  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  I  am  in  the  real-estate  business. 


Mr.  BoBO.  I^Ir.  Sliomer,  have  yon  ever  been  engaged  in  liandling 
pornogr-a]1hic  materials  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Yes,  sir.  j     i^o 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  what  type  of  pornoofra])hic  materials  have  yon  dealt? 

Mr.  Shomer.  I  took  photographs,  improper  pliotographs. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Yon  took  improper  pliotographs? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Showing  obscene  acts  and  perversion? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  When  were  yon  engaged  in  this  bnsiness? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Before  the  war. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  year  Avas  that  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  1940,  I  believe. 

Mr.  BoBO.  To  whom  did  yon  sell  these  photographs  which  you 


Mr.  Shomer.  I  didn't  sell  any  photographs.    I  jnst  took  the  photo- 
graphs.   I  was  a  photographer. 

Mr.  BoBO.  I  can't  hear  yon,  Mr.  Shomer. 

Mr.  Shomer.  I  didn't  sell  these  photographs;  I  jnst  did  the  pho- 

Mr.  BoBO.  For  whom  did  yon  work  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  For  Jack  Brotman. 

Chairman  Kefaitver.  1  did  not  understand  yon. 

Mr.  Shomer.  Jack  Brotman. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  How  do  yon  spell  the  last  name? 

Mr.  Shomer.  B-r-o-t-m-a-n. 

Chairman  Kefaitver.  Where  does  he  live ;  where  is  he  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  I  don't  know,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Yon  don't  know  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir.    I  haven't  seen  him  since  then. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  that  take  place  in  New  York  City  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Mr.  Shomer,  have  yon  ever  been  arrested  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  I  was  arrested  then. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  sentence  did  you  receive? 

Mr.  Shomer.  I  was  sentenced  to  the  city  prison. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  ever  been  arrested  since  that  time  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Onc«. 

Mr.  BoBO.  W[mt  were  yon  arrested  for  then  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  I  don't  remember  the  charge,  but  it  was  possession 
of  indecent  or  improper  literature,  possession,  and  transportation. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Where  did  that  arrest  take  place  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  In  Portsmouth. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Portsmouth,  Maine? 

Mr.  Shomar.  No.    Portsmonth,  Va. 

Mr.  BoBO.  At  that  time  what  type  of  pornographic  material  did 
you  have  in  your  possession  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  I  didn't  have  it  in  my  possession.  I  was  accompany- 
ing a  friend,  and  he  was  riding  down  to  Florida.  He  had  some  trouble 
with  the  car  then,  and  he  was  arrested  and  I  was  with  him. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  from  whom  your  friend  received  the  porno- 
graphic material  he  had  in  the  car? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 


Mr.  BoBO.  What  is  the  name  of  your  friend  that  was  arrested 
with  you  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Ben  Riceburg. 

Mr.  BoBO.  How  do  you  spell  that  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  R-i-c-e-b-u-r-g. 

Mr.  BoBO.  R-i-c-e-b-u-r-g? 

Mr.  Shomer.  I  think  so. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Where  does  Mr.  Riceburg  live  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Somewhere  in  New  York.    I  don't  see  him. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  have  not  seen  him  since  the  time  you  were  arrested  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No  ;  I  saw  him  once  last  year. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  was  his  address  at  the  time  3^ou  were  arrested  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  I  don't  remember. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Mr.  Shomer,  have  you  ever  had  any  dealings,  or  do  you 
know  Mr.  Ike  or  Isadore  Dorf man,  of  Baltimore,  Md.  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Haven't  you  ever  met,  or  didn't  you  in  fact,  in  1953, 
meet  Mr.  Dorfman  and  George  Fodor  in  Washington,  D.  C.  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Did  you  meet  these  two  people  in  Brooklyn,  N.  Y.  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  had  any  business  dealings  at  all  with  Mr. 
Tsadore  Dorfman  and  Mr.  George  Fodor? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  where  the  Brooklyn  Navy  is  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Did  you  not  in  1953  meet  with  Mr.  Ike  Dorfman  and 
Mr.  George  Fodor  in  the  company  of  a  man  named  Ben  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  Edgar  Maynard  Levy  of  Washington, 
D.  C? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  have  never  had  any  business  dealings  with  Edgar 
Maynard  Levy  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  He  formerly  lived  on  Tinker  Drive  on  Long  Island. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  don't  know  him  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Eddie  Mishkin  ? 
•    Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  ever  had  any  business  dealings  at  all  with 
the  Kingsley  Book  Store  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Or  the  Times  Square  Corp.  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  ever  had  any,  or  do  you  know  Mr.  Al  Stone? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  ever  had  any  business  dealings  with  Mr. 
Al  Stone,  alias  xVbe  Rubin  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 
.    Mr.  BoBO.  Mr.  Shomer,  do  you  have  the  original  records  which 
were  called  for  in  your  subpena  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Yes,  sir,  I  have  everything. 


Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  have  those  where  they  could  be  presented  to  the 
subcommittee  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  What  was  your  income  for  the  year  1954  i 

Mr.  Shomer.  I  have  the  records  here,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Well,  about  how  much  was  it  ? 

Mr.  SiioMER.  About  eight  or  nine  thousand.     It's  a  jomt  income,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Joint  income  of  you  and  your  wife? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  the  business  in  which  you  are  engaged,  what  was  the 
cross  business  which  you  did  'I 

Mr.  Shomer.  Which  business  do  you  mean,  sir?  The  real  estate 
business  ? 

Mr.  BoBO.  The  real  estate  business. 

Mr.  Shomer.  I  have  just  gone  into  it  in  the  last  2  months. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  gotten  out  of  the  other  and  gone 
into  this:  is  that  right?  .  n.-      t  i     i 

Mr.  Showier.  I  have  been  out  of  business  now  since  194(.  1  had  a 
publishing  business,  and  my  health  failed,  and  I  had  to  give  it  up. 
The  business  was  on  its  way  down. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Didn't    you    write    some    books    and    some 

irticles  ( 

Mr.  Shomer.  I  used  to  write  the  Laugh  Library  at  that  time,  pub- 
lisher.    It  was  distributed  nationally  on  the  newsstands. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  When  you  would  make  these  pictures,  to 
w'hom  did  you  sell  them? 

Mr.  Shomer.  I  didn't  sell  them;  I  just  did  the  photography  tor 
someone  else. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Someone  else  would  furnish  you  the  models 
and  the  equipment  and  you  would  make  the  pictures '? 

^Ir.  Shomer.  No.  The  party  that  I  worked  for  subsequently  was 
arrested,  we  all  were  arrested,  and  his  conviction,  because  he  opened 
up  on  evervone.     I  was  just  the  employee. 

Mr.  Bono.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Harry  Kunkelman? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Cleveland,  Ohio? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Akron,  Ohio  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  have  never  sold  or  dealt  in  any  motion-picture  film 
with  Mr.  Kunkelman  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Have  you  ever  received  any  negatives  from  Mr.  Kunkel- 
man or  transferred  any  negatives  to  him? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Shomer,  we  don't  want  to  get  you  m  any 
trouble  here,  but  we  have  a  lengthy  letter  from  the  captain  of  detec- 
tives out  at  Akron,  saying  that  they  had  Harry  Kunkelman  before 
them  and  he  received  a  great  deal  of  films,  from  their  investigation, 
find  that  Mr.  Kunkelman's  statement  was  that  one  of  the  principal 
sources  of  this  material  was  from  you. 

Mr.  Shomer.  That's  not  true,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  don't  think  that  is  true? 

Mr.  Shomer.  I  know  it  is  not. 


Chairman  Kefauver.  You  never  shipped  any  out  to  Akron? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Never,  sir. 

Chairman  Keifauver.  You  don't  know  Mr.  Kunkelman  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  don't  know  this  man  Harry  Kunkehnan 
at  all? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  How  much  material  of  pornographic  nature 
was  in  this  automobile  in  which  you  were  riding  with  your  friend  in 
Portsmouth,  Va.  ? 

Mr.  Shomer,  There  were  several  packages,  but  I  don't  know  how 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  inean  several  big  packages? 

Mr.  Shomer.  I  really  don't  know. 

Chairman  Kefau\^er.  Where  was  he  taking  it,  to  Florida  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  I  really  wouldn't  know. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  were  riding  with  him.  To  where  did 
you  start  out? 

Mr,  Shomer.  We  left  from  Brooklyn. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  where  were  you  going  to? 

Mr.  Shomer.  We  were  going  to  Florida. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Where  in  Florida  ? 

Mr,  Shomer,  Miami, 

Mr.  Chumbris.  AMio  to  in  Miami  ? 

Mr,  Shomer.  I  wouldn't  know, 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Where  did  you  finally  end  up? 

Mr.  Shomer,  Portsmouth.     In  jail. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Did  your  friend  make  any  stops  between  Newark  and 
Portsmouth,  Va.,  and  drop  off  any  pornographic  literature  or  any- 
thing in  his  car? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Mr,  BoBo.  Neither  you  nor  he  stopped  at  any  place? 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBo.  Have  you  ever  been  in  Port  Chester,  N,  Y,,  Mr.  Shomer? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Where? 

Mr.  BoBo.  Port  Chester,  N,  Y. 

Mr.  Shomer.  No,  sir, 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  never  have  met  Mr.  Edgar  Maynard  Levy  in  Port 
Chester,  N.  Y.,  and  transferred  to  him  large  quantities  of  pornographic 
material  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Never, 

Chairman  Kefauver,  All  right,  Mr.  Shomer.  If  we  want  vou  again, 
we  will  get  in  touch  with  Mr.  Rachstein. 

Mr.  BoBO,  I^have  just  one  more  question.  Senator,  if  I  may. 

Chairman  Kefaua'er.  All  right. 

Mr.  BoBo.  During  the  past  month,  from  April  through  May  15, 
you  have  deposited  in  the  bank  some  $16,733,20, 

Mr.  Shomer.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Was  that  all  derived  from  what  source  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  When  I  sold  the  large  book  company  I  had  about 
$25,000  or  $30,000,  and  I  got  about  $10,000  for  the  large  book  company. 
Tlien  I  sold  my  house,  T  got  $11,000  out  of  that. 

Mr.  BoBo.  When  did  you  sell  your  book  company  ? 


Mr.  Shomer.  I  sold  that  to 

Mr.  BoBo.  When? 

Mr.  Shomer.  In  1947. 

Mr.  BoBo.  This  is  April  4,  1955,  we  were  speaking  of,  March  29. 
1955,  through  April  2,  1955. 

Mr.  Shomer.  Yes,  sir.     Now  may  I  have  the  question  again,  please? 

Mr.  BoBO.  From  what  source  did  you  derive  the  $16,7o3.20  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  I  have  the  money  at  my  broker's.  I  ordered  the 
money  from  my  broker.  I  got  a  $10,000  check  and  a  $2,000  check  from 
my  broker. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Who  is  your  broker  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Barron  G.  Helbig  &  Co. 

Mr.  BoBO.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Gennaio  Di  Napoli  and  Mr.  Ealph 
Ardolina  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBO.  You  paid  them  on  March  31,  1955,  $4,000? 

Mr.  Shomer.  That's  right. 

Mr.  BoBo.  What  was  that  payment  for,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Shomer.  That's  a  contract  on  a  house  on  East  Second  Street, 
1714.     The  closing  will  be  the  end  of  July,  July  28, 1  believe— June  28. 

Mr.  BoBO.  And  your  average  income,  according  to  your  bank  de- 
posits, is  some  $2,000  a  week  from  March  29  to  April  2? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Bank  deposit? 

Mr.  BoBO.  Yes. 

Mr.  Shomer.  I  have  no  bank  deposit. 

Mr.  BoBO.  In  the  National  City  Bank  of  New  York  City. 

Mr.  Shomer.  It  is  a  bank  account  I  just  opened  up  to  do  the  real 
estate  business.  Whenever  I  need  any  money  I  get  it  from  the  broker. 
I  didn't  have  any  prior  bank  accounts.  I  would  sell  some  stock  and 
get  what  I  need. 

Mr.  BoBO.  March  29  to  April  2,  April  4,  6  days,  you  had  transac- 
tions involving  $16,733.20? 

Mr.  Shomer.  Yes,  sir.     I  have  the  contracts  here. 

Chairman  Ivefauver.  All  right,  Mr.  Shomer.     Thank  you. 

Mr.  Rachstein.  Your  Honor,  is  his  checkbook  available,  by  any 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Can  we  return  it  to  him,  Mr.  Bobo? 

Mr.  BoBO.  Yes  [handing] . 

Mr.  Rachstein.  Thank  you  very  much.  Your  Honor. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Since  being  here  we  have  received  a  good 
many  letters  from  people  expressing  interest  in  the  hearing.  I  am 
particularly  interested  to  receive  one  letter  today  postmarked  Brook- 
lyn, May  25.     It  says: 

Dear  Sir  :  This  is  an  unsolicited  advertisement  received  by  a  16-year-oId  high- 
school  boy. 


An  Anxious  Mother. 

The  advertisement  apparently  came  in  this  envelope  [exhibiting], 
Atine  Co..  631  Third  Avenue,  New  York  City.  The  advertisement 
will  speak  for  itself.  I  am  going  to  put  the  advertisement  soliciting, 
trying  to  sell  movies,  nude  pictures,  various  and  sundry  kinds  of 
things,  in  the  record.     This  will  be  made  part  of  the  files. 

(The  matter  above  referred  to  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  17,"  and 
is  on  file  with  the  subcommittee.) 


Chairman  Kefauvek.  Maybe  some  of  the  press  would  like  to  see- 
what  is  being  sent  out  through  the  mails. 

The  other  witnesses  that  we  have  subpenaed,  and  some  others,  will 
be  asked  to  come  back  next  Tuesday,  the  31st.  Our  hearing  that 
morning  will  begin  sharply  at  10  o'clock. 

We  stand  in  recess  until  next  Tuesday. 

(Whereupon,  at  4 :  30  p.  m.,  the  subcommittee  recessed  until  10  a.  m.,, 
Tuesday,May  31, 1955.) 


(Obscene  and  Pornographic  Materials) 

TUESDAY,   MAY   31,    1955 

United  States  Senate, 
Subcommittee  of  the  Commii'iee  on  the  Judiciary, 

TO  Investigate  Juvenile  Delinquency, 

New  York,  N.  Y. 

The  subcommittee  met,  pursuant  to  adjournment,  at  10:20  a.  m.,  in 
room  1703,  United  States  Court  House,  Foley  Square,  New  York  City, 
N.  Y.,  Senator  Estes  Kefauver,  chairman,  presiding. 

Present :  Senators  Estes  Kefauver  and  William  Langer. 

Also  present :  Peter  N.  Chumbris,  associate  counsel ;  Vincent  Gaug- 
han,  special  counsel ;  George  Butler,  investigator ;  George  Martin,  in- 
vestigator; Pat  Kiley,  investigator,  and  William  Haddad,  consultant. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  As  chairman  of  the  subcommittee,  I  want  to 
apologize  for  being  late  this  morning;  although  I  left  Washington  in 
ample  time,  my  plane  had  some  difficulty  in  landing  and  also  finding 
a  place  to  put  out  the  airport — the  traffic  was  pretty  bad,  too. 

We  are  awfully  glad  to  have  Senator  Langer  with  us  again  this 
morning  at  this  hearing. 

Today  the  subcommittee  is  holding  its  third  hearing  on  pornographic 
material  and  its  tie-in  to  juvenile  delinquency. 

At  our  first  meeting  last  Tuesday,  several  witnesses  established  the 
correlation  between  pornographic  material  and  juvenile  delinquency, 
which  I  think  most  of  us  understood,  anyway. 

Dr.  Karpman,  for  instance,  the  famous  criminologist,  said  that  he 
was  convinced  that  the  distribution  of  these  materials  among  youngs- 
ters in  many  cases  led  to  unnatural  sex  practices  and  to  juvenile  de- 

Father  Egan  and  others  testified  that  they  had  noticed  a  definite 
increase  in  the  use  of  these  materials  by  youngsters. 

On  Thursday  the  pattern  of  sale  and  distribution  of  these  materials 
was  established.  Pornography  was  shown  to  be  "big  business"  with 
tentacles  in  almost  every  community  in  the  Nation. 

The  members  of  the  subcommittee  were  shocked  to  learn  that  chil- 
dren as  young  as  3  and  4  years  old  were  being  used  in  making  porno- 
graphic films.  Although  this  low  age  bracket  is  the  singular  case,  it 
was  established  that  boys  and  girls  in  their  upper  teens,  not  only  see 
these  films,  but  actually  engage  in  their  manufacture  and  sale."  In 
most  cases  these  children  are  being  exploited  by  unscrupulous  adults. 

On  Thursday  several  witnesses  saw  fit  to  avail  themselves  of  the 
self-incriminations  of  the  fifth  amendment.  I  feel  that  all  of  these 
witnesses  were  unjustified  in  refusing  to  answer  some  of  the  ques- 



tions  and,  as  I  stated  at  the  time,  my  recommendation  would  be 
that  they  be  proceeded  against  for  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Today  we  are  recalling  some  of  these  witnesses  for  additional  ques- 
tions. Several  portions  of  their  testimony  are  in  need  of  clarification. 
If  they  see  fit,  they  can  use  this  opportunity  to  cooperate  with  the 
committee,  ancl  that  will  be  taken  into  consideration. 

Senator  Langer.  I  say,  Mr.  Chairman,  you  have  unanimous  support 
in  your  attitude  as  to  those  pleading  the  fifth  amendment. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Thank  you.  Senator  Langer.  I  am  certain 
that  the  other  members  of  the  committee  will  feel  that  they  were 
unjustified  in  refusing  to  testify  and  answer  some  of  the  questions. 

In  our  hearings  last  week  we  saw  that  the  pornography  business 
operates  partially,  at  least,  because  of  loopholes  in  the  Federal  law  to 
curtail  distribution  of  these  materials. 

In  addition,  widepsread  use  of  pornography  exists  because  of  in- 
adequate local  and  State  laws.  I  sincerely  hope  that  every  community 
will  evaluate  its  own  pornography  laws  and  possibly  revamp  them 
in  the  light  of  information  extracted  at  these  hearings. 

Any  community  that  desires  the  help  of  the  staff  of  the  subcom- 
mittee or  of  the  subcommittee  need  only  to  write  and'  we  will  assist 
them  in  any  way  possible. 

I  am  glad  to  say  that  there  is  a  connnunication  and  a  contact  be- 
tween tlie  members  of  this  staff  and  many  legislators  and  enforce- 
ment officials  throughout  the  country. 

Of  course,  in  the  final  analysis  the  attitude  of  the  public  will  be 
what  will  determine  whether  this  business  is  going  to  be  stamped 
out  or  not. 

We  have  had  witnesses  who  have  testified  as  to  the  seriousness  of 
this  problem,  one,  that  they  think  this  is  more  serious  than  commu- 
nism; others  think  that  it  is  more  serious  than  narcotics.  In  any 
event,  we  do  think  the  hearings  have  brought  out  that  it  is  of  more 
sinister  influence  than  most  people  have  thought. 

Today  we  will  hear  from  postal  and  customs  officials  about  their 
problems  in  curtailing  the  distribution  of  pornography;  we  will  also 
hear  from  subpenaed  witnesses  who  are  allegedly  engaged  in  the  sale, 
distribution,  and  manufacture  of  pornographic  materials. 

By  cooperating  with  this  subcommittee  these  witnesses  can  help 
wipe  out  this  hideous  business  that  preys  like  a  vulture  upon  many 
of  our  innocent  children. 

Senator  Langer,  do  you  wish  to  make  any  statement  before  we  call 
our  first  witness? 

Senator  Langer.  No,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Chumbris,  our  associate  counsel,  will 
conduct  the  examinations  today.  Mr.  Bobo  had  another  assignment 
he  had  to  begin  this  morning. 

Mr.  Chumbris,  who  is  our  first  witness? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Samuel  Roth. 

Chairman  Kefai^ver.  Mr.  Koth,  will  you  come  around,  sir? 

Do  you  solemnly  swear  the  testimony  you  will  give  this  committee 
will  be  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes,  sir. 



Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Roth,  will  you  please  state  your  name  and 
address  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  My  name  is  Samuel  Rotli.  My  address  is  110  Lafayette 
Street,  New  York  City. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  And  what  is  your  occupation  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  both  write  and  publish  books. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  For  how  long  a  period  of  time  have  you  been 
writing  and  publishing  books  ^ 

Mr.  Roth.  About  38  years. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  How  long  have  you  been  at  that  location  at  110 
Lafayette  Street  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  About  5  years. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Would  you  please  state  the  names  of  some  of  the 
books  that  you  publish  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Before  I  do  I  have  two  very  short  statements  I  wish 
to  make  to  the  committee  that  may  save  it  a  great  deal  of  trouble  and 
time.     May  I  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  right,  Mr.  Roth. 

Mr.  Roth.  Thank  you. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Providing  you  will  talk  a  little  bit  louder. 

Mr.  Roth.  During  my  brief  appearance  before  this  committee 
last  year  I  read  a  statement  written  by  my  attorney,  Mr.  Nicholas 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  is  his  name? 

Mr.  Roth.  Nicholas  Atlas. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  right. 

Mr.  Roth.  This  statement  apprised  the  committee  that  I  was  under 
indictment  in  two  courts,  and  it  cited  a  United  States  Supreme  Court 
decision  that  in  effect  establishes  the  immunity  of  all  evidence  offered 
by  a  witness  before  a  congressional  committee  from  use  in  any  action 
against  him  in  anv  other  court. 

Upon  my  concluding  the  reading  of  the  statement.  Senator  Hen- 
drickson  accused  me  of  pleading  the  fifth  amendment. 

I  want  it  to  be  establislied  in  the  record  that  this  is  not  so.  I  believe 
in  the  hfth  amendment,  but  I  know  that  it  will  be  at  least  50  years 
before  an  honest  man  will  be  able  to  plead  it  without  being  misunder- 

It  is  my  stand  before  this  committee  that  I  have  a  right  to  the  pro- 
tection granted  me  under  the  above-mentioned  United  States  Supreme 
Court  ruling,  but  that  I  will  happily  answer  the  questions  of  the  com- 
mittee if  I  am  ordered  to  do  so. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  are  glad  to  have  your  statement,  Mr. 

Mr.  Roth.  I  have  one  more,  and  I  wish  to  read  that. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Very  well,  sir. 

Mr.  Roth.  If  this  committee  is  limited  to  an  inquiry  into  the  causes 
of  juvenile  delinquency  in  our  midst,  it  is  going  far  off  its  course  in 
questioning  me.  With  the  single  exception  of  a  book  of  instruction 
for  children,  entitled  "Tina  and  Jimmy  Learn  How  They  Were  Born," 
written  by  my  daughter  for  the  instruction  of  her  own  children.  I  have 
never  published  or  advertised  a  book  an  adolescent  would  bother  to 

65203 — 55 13 


read.  I  have  never  offered  books  to  juveniles,  and  refused  to  serve 
them  whenever  they  were  so  identified  in  my  mails. 

Sensational  as  my  advertising  appears  to  the  eye,  it  can  hardly  be  of 
interest  to  any  but  people  sophisticated  enough  to  resist  my  verbal 

I  don't  think  this  committee  has  reached  the  heart  of  the  problem 
of  juvenile  delinquency.  Father  Egan  only  suggested  it  when  he 
testified  before  this  committee  on  its  first  hearings  that  there  is  no 
more  smut  in  circulation  today  than  in  previous  periods;  it  is  just  that 
the  juveniles  of  our  time  have  no  respect  for  the  religion  of  their 
elders.     This  goes  to  high  office  as  well  as  to  the  home. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Anything  else,  Mr.  Roth  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Nothing  else.  Thank  you.  I  am  now  ready  to  answer 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  are  glad  to  have  you  make  your  state- 
ments. They  will,  of  course,  be  printed  in  the  record  with  the  rest  of 
your  testimony. 

Mr.  Roth.  Thank  you. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Roth,  where  were  you  born,  and  when? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  was  born  on  November  17, 1894,  in  what  is  now  Poland. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  When  did  you  come  to  this  country  '. 

Mr.  Roth.  I  came  to  this  country  in  1904. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Where  did  you  first  reside  in  tlie  United  States  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  don't  remember  that.  It  was  on  Broome  Street,  273 
Broome  Street. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  New  York  City  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  New  York  City. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  I  understand  you  stated  that  you  have  been  in  this 
business  about  38  years? 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  In  the  publishing  business? 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right. 

^Ir.  Chumbris.  You  are  connected  with  certain  companies  that 
publislied  such  books  as  Gargantuan  Books ;  is  that  correct. 

Mr.  Roth.  That  is  not  correct.  Gargantuan  Books  is  a  trade  name 
which  I  have  used  for  distributing  books  for  a  period  of  6  weeks. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  And  are  there  any  other  such  books  that  you  have 
used  as  a  trade  name;  would  you  please  tell  us? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  can't  remember  them,  but  there  are  at  least  15. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  And  Seven  Sirens  Press ;  is  that  one  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  No.  Seven  Sirens  Press  is  the  mother  corporation  of 
all  my  activities. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  How  about  Gargoyle  Books? 

Mr.  Roth.  That  is  a  name. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Book  Gems? 

Mr.  Roth.  That  is  another  name. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Falstaff  Books? 

Mr.  Roth.  That  is  another  name. 

IVIr.  Chumbris.  Paragon  Books? 

Mr.  Roth.  That,  too. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  publish  and  edit  Good  Times? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  The  American  Aphrodite? 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right. 


Mr.  Chumbris.  Beautiful  Sinners  of  New  York? 

Mr.  EoTH.  Yes,  that  is  a  past  publication. 

Mr,  Chumbris.  Lila  and  Colette  and  the  Isles  of  Love? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  distribute  any  nudist  books? 

Mr.  EoTH.  Yes. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Would  you  please  name  those  ? 

Mr.  RoTii.  They  are  books  whose  names  are  really  numbers.  Their 
general  title  is  "N.  U.  S.,"  and  they  are  very  beautiful  nudes  which 
come  through  the  Customhouse  and  are  sanctioned  by  the  custom  cen- 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  distribute  "Nudist  Colony"  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes.     That  was  one  of  the  titles. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Adult  Companion? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  don't — it  is  something  that  has  to  do  with  my  busi- 
ness, but  I  do  not  remember  whether  it  is  a  book  or — oh,  yes.  Of 
course.     It  is  a  Treasury  of  Literature,  edited  by  Tiffany  Thayer. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Bedside  Treasure'^ 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  another  book  exactly  like  that. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Lady  of  the  Sofa  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  by  Crabyon.  That's  one  of  my  books.  It  is  a 
great  French  classic. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Nudes? 

Mr.  Roth.  That  comes  under  N.  U.  S.  I  have  never  had  the  book 
called  Nudes,  as  I  remember  it. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Loves  of  the  Orient  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes ;  that's  a  book. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Fiery  French  Nudes? 

Mr.  Roth.  No.  It  is  the  way  I  would  adertise  the  book  of  nudes, 
but  it  is  not  the  title  of  a  book. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  The  Nude  in  the 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let's  just  see.  Did  you  advertise  the  book 
tliat  way  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right.  I  think  I  remember  advertising  a  book 
that  way. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  The  Nude  in  the  French  Theatre? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Strange — — 

Mr.  Roth.  That  I  should  call  your  attention  to  it.  The  introduc- 
tion to  it  was  by  Anatole  France,  w^ho  was  a  Nobel  prize  winner, 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Strange  Loves? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes.  That's  a  regular — it  is  a  book  published  by  one 
or  the  other  of  the  big  publishers  which  I  bought  as  a  remainder. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Red  Light  Babe? 

Mr.  Roth.  There  you  have  got  me.     I  don't  remember  that. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  You  don't  remember  that  one  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  It  sounds  like  a  paper-covered  book  that  I  also  bought 
as  a  remainder. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  do  vou  mean  "bought  as  a  remainder," 
Mr.  Roth? 

Mr.  Roth.  Most  of  my  business  is  buying  regular  publishers'  books 
that  the  publishers  themselves — if  publishers  publish  5,000  books  and 
sold  only  4,000,  he  sells  the  remainder  of  the  1,000  to  me  as  a  remainder, 
and  that  makes  it  possible  for  me  to  make  almost  a  publisher's  profit. 


Mr.  Chumbris.  Her  Candle  Burns  Hot? 

Mr.  EoTH.  That's  tlte  title  of  a  book?  If  you  say  so,  it  would  be 
one  of  those  paper-covered  books,  but  it  would  be  a  very  hannless  book 
if  I  sold  it. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Carnival  of  Passion  ? 

Mr.  EoTH.  Yes ;  that  I  remember. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Women  of  Plentipunda  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes.     Thafs  an  adaptation  of  an  old  book. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Now,  referring  to  the  Women  of  Plentipunda,  is 
that  the  same  book  which  you  described  in  this  advertising,  in  these 
Tvords : 

Since  adolescence  represents  an  age,  psychiatrists  tell  us,  during  which  a 
youngster's  normal  sexual  curiosity  reaches  a  high  point— 

Would  it  be  fair  to  say  that  the  kinds  of  materials  you  handle  would 
be  of  particular  interest  in  this  age  group  ? 

Mr.  Eoth.  You  begin  by  saying  that  you  were  reading  something 
of  mine ;  yon  wind  up  with  something  that  doesn't  sound  like  me.  Is 
that  a  question  you  are  asking  me  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  This  is  one  of  your  advertisements  on  these  particu- 
lar books— on  this  particular  book  The  Women  of  Plentipunda. 

Mr.  Roth.  Did  you  read  me  my  advertisement  of  it? 

Mv.  Chumbris.  Yes. 

Mr.  Roth.  I  didn't  recognize  it.    Would  you  please  read  it  again? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Is  that  the  same  book  which  you  describe  in  this 
advertising  in  these  words,  and  I  quote : 

Since  adolescence  represents  an  age,  psychiatrists  tell  us,  during  which  a 
youngster's  normal  sexual  curiosity  reaches  a  high  points 

would  it  be  fair  to  say  that  the  kinds  of  materials  you  handle  would 
be  of  particular  interest  in  this  age  group  ? 

Mr.  RoTPi.  I  would  say  not,  because  in  the  fii-st  place  the  expression 
"Plentipunda"  is  a  purely  Indian  one— it  belongs  to  the  Indian,  to 
the  religion  of  the  Hindus. 

In  the  second  place,  if  you  have  a  page,  any  page  of  that  book,  as 
a  matter  of  fact,  it  is  a  philosophically  written  book,  a  description  of 
what  might  be  considered  a  Utopia,  a'Utopia  that  people  imagine  for 
themselves,  but  which  is  hardly  described  in  that  book  in  any  lan- 
guage that  could  even  be  of  the  "faintest  interest  to  children. 

Besides  that,  I  can't  be  appealing  to  children  because  we  advertise 
only  in  the  most  adult  magazines.  In  the  first  circular  that  we  send 
people  we  ask  them  for  their  age,  and  that  is  how  our  list  is  made  up. 

The  cheaj:»est  book  we  sell  is  $1.98,  and  that  very  rarely — usually  it 
is  $2.98,  and  we  can't  expect  children  to  pay  us  any  prices  like  that ;  and 
we  Avouldn't  sell  them  these  books  under  the  circumstances. 

We  don't  think  that  any — I  don't  think  that  any  kind  of  a  book 
written  in  adult  fashion  can  possibly  appeal  to  children.  If  there  is 
anytliino-  there  that  you  think  would  appeal  to  children,  I  would 
like  to  hear  it. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  I  will  hereby  show  you  some  advertising  material 
that  reached  the  hands  of  a  minor.  This  advertising  material,  one  is 
on  the  French  Pornographer,  Good  Times,  and  The  American  Aphro- 
dite, which  return  address  is  Book  Gems,  110  Lafayette  Street,  which 
vou  testified  are  concerns  with  which  you  are  connected. 


Will  you  please  tell  us,  is  this  your  type  of  advertising  [handing 
to  Mr.  Roth]  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes.  I  have  already  conceded  that  my  type  of  adver- 
tising is  very  exciting,  but  anybody  can  see  who  has  ever  tried  to  read 
one  of  those  books — you  take  for  instance  the  book  The  French  Por- 
nographer,  you  would  find  an  adult  under  30  who  has  not  had  a  college 
education  would  find  it  difficult  to  go  beyond  the  third  page,  or  even 
beyond  the  first  page. 

It  is  a  very  fine  book ;  it  is  a  translation  from  the  French. 

I  deal  almost  exclusively  in  French  classics.  I  could  say  that  my 
exciting  style  of  advertising  is  a  net  that  I  spread  among  people  who 
have  not  had  a  chance  for  a  very  good  education  to  get  good  books 
into  their  homes,  and  I  am  prepared  to  prove  that  almost  every  book, 
except  those  paper-covered  books,  which  I  do  not  consider  harmful, 
are  within  the  realm  of  either  contemporary  or  modern  classics,  except 
those  books,  and  most  of  the  books  that  I  advertise  in  my  magazines 
are  books  more  than  2,000  years  old,  books  that  have  been  classics  for 
20  centuries. 

Now,  do  you  want  me  to  tell  you  about  this? 

Chairman  Kefatjv^r.  Well,  first,  Mr.  Roth 

Mr.  Roth,  I  don't  want  to  take  up  too  much  time. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  all  of  this  material  you  have  here,  advertis- 
ing which  you  have  sent  out? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Very  well.     Let  it  be  made 

Mr.  Roth.  Except  for  the  sheet  of  written  paper  on  top  of  it.  The 
front  there  seems  to  be  a  letter  sent  to  the  committee  by  somebody. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  By  the  mother  of  a  minor  child. 

Mr.  RarH.  That  was  really  what  I  should  have  answered  first. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  It  will  be  made  an  exhibit  here  and  part  of 
the  record. 

(The  information  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  18."  The  advertise- 
ment is  on  file  with  the  subcommittee.  The  letter  accompanying  the 
literature  reads  as  follows:) 

This  enclosed  filth  was  sent  to  a  IS-year-old  boy  from  Gargoyle  Books,  110 
Lafayette  Street,  New  York  13,  N.  T.  I  think  it's  time  something  should  be 
done  about  this  contribution  to  juvenile  delinquency.  I  intend  to  follow  this 


Mr.  Roth.  I  believe  it  got  here  by  accident. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Roth,  you  stated  previously  in  answer  to  my 
question  that  you  made  sure  that  you  asked  the  ages  of  persons  to 
whom  you  sent  your  advertising  and  material. 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right. 

Mr,  Chumbris.  That  particular  letter  did  get  to  a  minor;  is  that 
correct  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Roth,  do  you  have  name  lists  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  How  mau}^  names  would  you  say  are  on  your  name 

Mr.  Roth.  At  present  they  come  to  about  400,000. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  400,000  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Where  do  you  receive  those  name  lists  ? 


Mr.  Roth.  Mainly  from  publications? 

Senator  Langer.  From  what  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Mainly  from  publications.  I,  for  instance,  advertise 
by  sending  out  lists  like  these  to  lawyers,  doctors,  dentists,  bankers, 
responsible  business  people.  There  is  no  way  in  which  I  can  help  it 
if  a  child  would  grab  his  father's  mail  and  put  clown  on  it  that  he 
is  80  years  old.     How  would  I  know  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Now,  Mr.  Roth,  when  you  acquire  these  name  lists 
from  these  various  publications,  what  inquiry  do  you  make  as  to 
whether  the  person  is  a  minor  or  an  adult  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Well,  the  first  circular  we  send  them  we  ask  them  to 
put  down  their  age.  I  admit  that  they  don't  always  do  so;  but  we 
judge  by  the  fact — in  the  first  place,  I  wish  to  make  this  very,  very 
emphatic — I  don't  believe  this  circular  might  excite  the  mind  of  an 
older  person  to  want  the  book,  which  is  what  it  is  intended  to  do,  would 
be  of  the  fainest  interest  to  a  juvenile,  because  the  words  won't  mean 
anything  to  him ;  they  are  not  written  in  his  language. 

Senator  Langer.  What  about  the  pictures  ?  Would  they  interest  a 

Mr.  Roth.  They  might.  But  they  are  always  very  beautiful  pic- 
tures and  within  the  law — entirely  within  the  law. 

I  believe  I  shall  have  to  comment  on  that  as  the  questions  are 
asked  me. 

Chainnan  KErAu\TER.  Mr.  Roth,  just  out  of  some  of  our  corre- 
spondence that  we  have  received — and  this  is  not  all  of  it  [exhibit- 
ing]— here  is  a  letter  from  Mrs.  Shuler  in  Davenport,  Iowa,  saying 
that  this  was  received  by  her  8-year-old  son — some  of  your  advertis- 
ing [handing  to  Mr.  Roth]. 

Here  is  a  letter  from  Schoharie,  N.  Y.,  from  Catherine  S.  Rickard: 

We  received  some  objectionable  literature,  but  from  another  company,  Gargoyle 

It  says : 

I  am  enclosin.::?  the  whole  thing,  and  I  was  just  fortunate  to  notice  it  before 
the  children  got  a  hold  of  it. 

Apparently  this  was  addressed  to  her  son.  This  is  marked  "Per- 

Mr.  RoTir.  Is  the  original  envelope  there? 
Chairman  Kefauver.  Yes ;  it  seems  to  be  there. 
Mr.  Roth.  iNIay  I  see  it  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Yes  [handing  to  Mr.  Roth] . 
Here  is  one  to  L.  Mann,  Lake  Junaluska,  N.  C. : 

We  have  reason  to  believe  this  letter  contains  literature  which  should  not 
be  allowed  to  go  through  the  mails. 

This  was  addressed  to  a  child,  age  17  : 

We  do  not  know  where  she  is  so  cannot  forward  this.  Two  years  ago  she  left 

Anyway,  it  was  sent  to  a  young  girl  who  was  in  camp  [handing  to 
Mr.  Roth]. 

Here  is  one  to  a  15-year-old  boy.  Postmaster  in  Erie,  Pa.,  sent  this. 
This  was  sent  to  a  15-year-old  boy,  apparently. 

Here  is  one  from  Burlington,  Iowa,  in  which  a  mother  says  it  was 
sent  to  a  juvenile — it  does  not  give  his  age  [handing  to  Mr.  Roth]. 


Here  is  one  that  seems  to  have  gotten  to  Mr.  J.  Edgar  Hoover  in 
some  way  [handing  to  Mr.  Eoth] . 

Mrs.  Garrett  Wilson  back  in  Ohio,  who  complained  to  her  Congress- 
man about  her  children  getting  this  thing  here  [handing  to  Mr.  Koth] . 

Here  is  one  from  the  president  of  a  college  at  Columbus,  Ohio, 
saying  literature  like  this  came  to  him  and  to  others  at  the  college 
[handing  to  Mr.  Roth]. 

Here  is  one  forwarded  by  a  college  president  to  Mrs.  Oveta  Hobby. 
She.  in  turn,  sent  it  to  us  [handing  to  Mr.  Eoth] . 

Mr.  Roth,  you  say  you  make  sure  that  none  of  your  literature  reaches 
the  young  people.     What  do  you  say  about  all  of  this  ? 

]NIr.  Roth.  I  would  like  to  answer  this. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  identify  these  as  being  literature  that 
you  sent  out  ? 

Mr.  RoTii.  Yes;  these  were  all  things  that  were  sent  out  by  my 
office,  under  my  general  direction. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  By  your  various  corporations  or  publications, 
or  publishing  companies? 

Mr.  Eoth.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  They  M'ill  all  be  made  exhibits,  together  with 
the  accompanying  letters,  which  speak  for  themselves. 

(The  information  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  19."  The  advertise- 
ments are  on  file  with  the  subcommittee.  The  letters  accompanying 
the  literature  read  as  follows :) 

We  have  reason  to  believe  this  letter  contains  literature  which  should  not 
be  allowed  to  go  through  the  mails.  Miss  M.  is  a  (age  17)  young  girl  who  at- 
tended our  camp  several  years  ago  and  we  do  not  know  where  she  is  so  cannot 
forward  this.  Two  years  ago  after  she  left  camp,  similar  mail  came  for  her, 
unsealed,  second  class,  which  we  did  not  forward  when  we  found  it  contained 
obscene  material.     Please  investigate. 


Burlington,  Iowa,  November  20,  1953. 
Postmaster  General, 

Washinyton,  D.  C: 
Enclosed  find  literature  that  was  mailed  to  my  home.  It  was  sent  to  my  son 
who  tore  it  up.  Why  are  such  vile  pictui-es  permitted  to  be  sent  through  the  mail? 
It  is  no  wonder  we  have  so  many  sex  crimes  and  juvenile  delinquency  if  this  kind 
of  literature  can  be  had.  I  think  it  is  a  disgrace  to  all  decency  and  I  am  very 
angry  that  my  address  is  used  for  such  a  purpose.  I  think  this  firm  should  not 
be  permitted  to  use  the  mail  and  that  they  should  not  be  permitted  to  print  such 
pictures.  I  hope  that  you  can  do  something  to  stop  them. 
Sincerely  yours, 

Mrs.  E.  B. 

Davenport,  Iowa,  Octohei-  28, 1958. 
Postmaster  General, 

Washington,  D.  C. 
Dear  Sir  :  Enclosed  please  find  an  advertisement  that  was  sent  to  my  18-year- 
old  son.     He  is  now  in  college  and  this  was  forwarded  but  it  is  evident  that  these 
are  being  sent  to  boys  in  preparatory  schools. 

We  are  always  hearing  that  the  Postal  Department  is  run  at  a  loss  and  rates 
should  be  raised.  I  resent  very  much  paying  taxes  to  pay  my  postman  to  deliver 
this  type  of  thing.  I  have  always  understood  that  there  was  a  law  about  the 
type  of  literature  that  could  be  sent  through  the  mail. 

I  should  appreciate  a  statement  from  you  as  to  the  legality  of  this  publication. 
Very  truly  yours, 

Mrs.  C.  S.,  Jr. 


Schoharie,  N.  Y.,  November  20,  1953. 
Post  Office  Inspector, 

Washington,  D.  C. 
Dear  Mr.  Simon  :  Again  we  received  some  objectionable  literature,  but  from 
another  company:  Gargoyle  Books,  110  Lafayette  Street  (8th  floor).  New  York, 
N.  Y.     I'm  enclosing  the  whole  thing,  and  I  was  just  fortunate  to  notice  it  before 
the  children  got  a  hold  of  it. 

Is  there  any  way  we  can  find  out  where  they  obtain  my  husband's  address? 
Could  such  a  practice  be  abolished — especially  for  such  obscene  material? 

Thank  you  very  much  for  your  previous  investigation,  and  for  anything  you 
do  this  time. 

Sincerely  yours, 

C.  S.  R. 

CoRVALLis,  Oreg.,  June  12, 1953. 
Mrs.  OvETA  CtXLP  Hobby  : 

It  is,  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  that  you  are  in  the  position  of  doing  what  you 
can  for  the  welfare  of  our  country.  This  is  a  problem  that  I  wish  could  be  solved. 
I  live  in  a  college  town  and  for  years  these  obscene  ads  have  been  coming  to  our 
students.  I  feel  it  is  one  of  the  worst  demoralizing  influences  we  have  to  bring 
our  Nation  low. 

I  have  no  idea  if  or  how  anything  can  be  done  about  it. 

The  envelopes  are  marked  "Personal."  The  P.'  O.'s  are  strewn  with  them. 
Students  are  curious  and  make  good  bait. 

Thank  vou. 

C.  D. 

Ck)LUMBUS,  Ohio,  October  9,  1953. 
Mr.  J.  Edgar  Hoover, 

Director,  FBI,   Washington,  D.   C. 
Dear  Mr.  Hoover  :  Isn't  there  some  way  to  stop  such  filth  as  the  enclosed,  from 
coming  to  decent  people  through  the  United  States  mail? 

This  is  the  worst  that  I  have  ever  seen  and  one  of  our  graduate  students  who 
is  helping  out  in  the  ofiice  was  so  shocked  at  this  awful  stuff  that  she  insisted  I 
write  you  at  once  about  it. 
Very  truly  yours, 

G.  S.  R. 

Mr.  Roth.  May  I  continue,  please? 

Chairman  Kef AuvER.  Yes;  yon  may  continue. 

Mr.  Roth.  Thank  you. 

You  will  notice  that  a  few  of  these  in  which  the  original  envelope  is 
offered,  the  addresses  are  not  on  stencils.  This  one  [indicating]  is  not 
on  a  stencil ;  this  one  is  not  on  a  stencil ;  and  those  are  where  the  orig- 
inal envelope  has  not  been  received ;  they  are  probably  names  of  people 
who  were  addressed  through  the  telephone  directories,  w^hich  is  why 
their  first  name  is  "Dr.  So-and-So."  That  covers  the  letter  which 
reached  Mr.  Hoover — J.  Edgar  Hoover — and  it  covers  another  letter 
that  I  heard  you  say  had  been  sent  in  by  a  doctor. 

Chairman  Kefauver,  Apparently  these  are  written  out  and  copies 
are  made,  and  then  the  name  and  address  is  just  cut  off  with  a  scissors 
and  pasted  on. 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes,  I  realize  that.  But  I  want  to  explain  what  this 
means,  this  little  thing  [exhibiting].  It  means  that  these  people  on 
the  list,  which  another  company  addressed  for  me,  and  in  which  I  got 
the  best  assurance  you  can  possibly  get  from  people  you  do  business 
with,  that  they  were  not  going  to  minors;  and  these  hajDpened  to  be 

There  is  no  point  in  my  disputing  that,  when  my  real  point  is  that 
if  they  reached  minors  they  couldn't  possibly  have  any  bad  influence 


on  them,  and  they  would  disreo;ard  them.  They  wouhl  disregard 
them  because  the  language  which  my  circulars  are  written  in  may 
mean  something  to  a  Senator,  may  mean  something  to  a  mature  adult, 
but  cannot  mean  anything  to  a  boy  or  a  girl. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr,  lioth,  do  you  mean  to  say  that  these  pictures 
that  are  present  on  this  folder  [exhibiting]  will  not  excite  a  minor 
if  it  gets  into  his  hands?  Won't  you  take  a  good  look  at  those  [hand- 
ing to  Mr.  Roth]  ? 

]\Ir.  Roth.  When  you  put  these  pictures  against  the  battery  of 
females  that  any  child  sees  on  any  morning  in  a  ride  through  the 
subway,  in  a  walk  through  a  street,  this  is  ridiculous  as  an  argument 
against  my  business.     These  are 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Rotli,  just  a  minute. 

Mr,  Roth.  Forgive  me,  I  shouldn't  have  said  that  at  all.  I  am 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  a  pamphlet  there  with  nude  fe- 
males in  various  positions,  and  some  of  them  with  nude  males,  ap- 
parently. You  are  comparing  those  with  what  you  see  when  you  ride 
on  a  subway  ? 

Mr,  Roth,  Yes.  It  is  not  unusual  to  see  a  man  with  his  arm 
around  a  woman  wdio  is  naked  up  to  here  [indicating],  and  if  the 
child  wants  to  play  around  with  that  kind  of  an  image  it  can  very  well 
imagine  the  rest  of  the  body  to  be  as  naked  as  the  upper  part  of  it. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Rotli,  if  this  won't  excite  children • 

Mr.  Roth.  I  don't  think  so. 

Chairman  Kefauver,  Children  are  more  easily  excited  than  adults. 

Mr,  Roth.  Look  at  this.  This  is  a  cartoon,  and  it  is  a  cartoon  that 
can  hardly  give  anybody  pleasure  in  looking  at  it, 

Mr,  Chumbris,  Why  do  you  spend  so  much  money  putting  these 
photos  on  that  advertisement  if  it  does  not  excite  the  men  that  you 
hope  to  sell  the  books  to  ? 

Mr,  Roth.  I  beg  your  pardon ;  I  didn't  say  that.  I  said  that  I  do 
hope  to  excite  the  men  into  buying  these  good  books. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Why  doesn't  it  excite  the  children  then  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Because  children's  minds  are  different.  They  are  prob- 
ably better  than  the  minds  of  mature  people  in  that  respect,  A  child 
3'^ou  have  got  to  tell,  to  give  a  real  image,  or  the  child  just  disregards 

Chairman  Kefauver,  You  think  men,  then,  are  more  susceptible 
to  harm  from  pornography,  or  lewd  pictures,  than  children, 

Mr,  Roth.  I  don't  consider  these  lewd  pictures  by  any  means. 

Chairman  Kefauver,  Wliatever  they  are,  you  think  men  are  more 
susce^Ttible  to  being  affected  by  them  than  children  are? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  tliink  that  is  a  matter  of  course.  Their  business  is — 
they  have  more  business  in  the  relations  with  women  than  children 
have.     Children  don't  know^  anything  about  it  as  yet,  mostly. 

There  is  nothing  in  these  pictures  that  I  would  say  was  in  any  way 
]ewd  or  indecent.  And  certainly  nothing  that  would  be  new  to  chil- 
dren whose  eyes  are  wide  open  wherever  they  walk. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr,  Roth,  have  you  ever  received  a  letter  from  a 
minor  with  a  high-school  address  on  it  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  know  that  we  received  such  mail.  My  orders  to  the 
people  who — you  know  that  I  don't  fill  the  orders,  or  open  them ;  but 


my  orders  are  strictly  not  to  pay  any  attention  to  such  an  address. 
And  when  money  is  enclosed,  we  return  it,  either  by  cash  or  by  check. 
1  think  usually  by  check. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  But  you  stated  a  while  ago  that  you  buy  name  lists 
from  other  groups ;  is  that  correct  ? 

Mr,  Roth.  No;  I  don't  buy  them;  I  rent  them.  I  am  not  there 
when  they  are  addressed. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  And  the  name  lists  that  you  buy  or  rent  are  some- 
times on  a  name  plate,  just  a  small  little  plate;  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  EoTH.  I  wouldn't  say  that  that's  always  so.  These  happened 
to  be,  I  believe  these  were  on  these  gum  paper  labels. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That's  right.  And  otliers  are  on  mineographed 
sheets ;  is  that  correct  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  They  have  every  way  of  addressing  them  that  I  have. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Then  when  you  Iniy  or  rent  those  name  lists  you  do 
not  have  the  slightest  idea  whether  the  person  from  whom  you  pur- 
chased that  name  list  has  a  list  of  minors  or  adults,  do  you  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  have  the  assurance  that  they  are  only  adults ;  be- 
cause I  do  not  like  to  spend  postage  on  addressing  children. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  How  did  all  of  these  exhibits — and  we  are  just 
giving  you  a  portion  of  what  came  into  our  office — how  did  you 

Mr.  Roth.  Have  you  any  idea  of  how  much  mail  that  represents? 
That  i^robably  represents  10  million  pieces  of  mail,  and  you  have  got 
about  20  or  30  pieces  here,  culled  over  a  great  many  years.  Why  do 
you  think  that  is  representative  of  my  business  ? 

Chairman  Kefalh'er.  Mr.  Roth.  I  think  as  to  your  point,  the  staff 
tells  me  that  we  have  literally  a  file  cabinet  full  of  your  mail  which  has 
been  sent  in  from  all  over  the  country.  I  do  not  believe  I  have  shown 
you  all  of  what  we  have  here. 

Here  is  another  one  sent  to  the  Postmaster  General.  This  was  sent 
to  a  15-year-old  boy,  Gargoyle  Books. 

Now  I  want  to  ask  you,  Mr.  Roth,  you  said  that  you  put  on  these 
things  that  they  were  not  supposed  to  be  sent  back  or  ordered  by 
minors.  I  have  not  been  able  to  find  that  on  any  piece  of  this  litera- 

Mr.  Roth.  I  didn't  get  that  last  part. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  said  that  your  instructions  on  these 
pieces  of  advertising  made  it  plain  that  minors  could  not  order  it,  that 
only  adults  would  be  permitted  to  order  it  from  these  pamphlets. 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right. 

Chairman  Kefau^-er.  I  have  not  been  able  to  find  that  on  any  of 
these  pieces  of  literature. 

Mr.  Roth.  Well,  that's  not  something  I  know  how  to  explain. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  the  boss  of  the  business  ? 

]\Ir.  Roth.  That's  right. 

Chairman  KEFAU^T>R.  Why  did  you  tell  us  a  little  while  ago 

Mr.  Roth.  They  were  not  sent  in,  though. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  But,  ]Mr.  Roth,  I  want  to  get  this  straight. 
You  said  in  the  beginning  in  one  of  your  statements  that  this  was 
not  any  business  of  this  subcommittee,  handling  juvenile — what  you 
were  doing  was  no  business  of  this  subcommittee,  because,  in  the  first 
place,  you  did  not  send  the  advertisements  to  minors,  and,  in  the 
second  place,  it  was  definite  that  they  were  required  to  give  their 


age,  and  if  it  appeared  that  they  were  a  minor,  the  orders  would  not 
be  fulfilled. 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right. 

Chairman  IvEFAtn^ER.  Where  on  any  of  this  literature  do  you  ask 
anyone's  age  [handing  to  Mr.  Roth]  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  The  first  circular  which  I  send  to  a  person  who  has  sent 
in  an  order,  say  through  a  magazine  or  through  the  mails,  probably 
has  never  been  sent  in. 

I  wish  to  remind  you  again  that  these  pieces  are  the  results  of 
millions  of  pieces  of  mail  that  have  gone  out  in  the  last  few  years. 

Chairman  KeTxYuv^er.  Mr.  Roth,  we  have,  I  think,  a  cross-section 
of  all  the  kinds  you  have  sent  out,  and  my  staff  tells  me  they  find  no 
inquiry  about  the  age  on  any  of  them. 

Mr.  Roth.  That  is  my  point,  that  these  are  never  sent  in ;  these  are 
sent  in  to  us,  and  the  complaints  come  on  those  that  come  later. 
That's  the  only  way  I  can  explain  it.  I  am  not  making  a  perfect 
explanation,  because  there  is  no  perfect  explanation. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Roth,  you  have  a  briefcase  there.  Do 
you  find  any  in  your  briefcase  that  inquire  the  age  of  the  person  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  have  none  here.     I  have  brought  nothing  with  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  no  copy  with  you? 

]\Ir.  Roth.  No.  And  I  wish  to  say  we  are  in  the  process  of  wind- 
ing up  our  business.  I  don't  know  whether  any  of  these  circulars 
show  it,  but  the  last  circular  we  sent  out  we  announced  that  that  was 
the  third  of  the  last  six  announcements  we  are  making,  and  so  we  are 
not  using  those  lists  any  more. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Roth,  the  staff  using  Eastern  High  School  sta- 
tionery in  Washington,  D.  C,  sent  out  letters  to  persons  dealing  in 
publications  such  as  yours,  pictures,  and  not  only  did  they  receive  a 
reply  from  those  people  to  whom  the  letters  were  directed,  but  within 
a  month,  5  or  6  companies  dealing  in  the  type  of  material  in  which 
3^ou  deal,  and  pictures,  bondage  pictures,  and  fetish  pictures,  and 
nudes,  and  so  forth,  reached  our  office  although  no  letter  was  directed 
to  those  companies. 

Now,  how  would  you  explain  how  your  office  got  answers  from 
people  to  w^hom  letters  were  not  directed  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Chumbris,  you  have  not  made  clear  what 
you  are  trying  to  get  at. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  I  have  made  a  statement,  and  I  want  him  to  explain 
the  statement. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  he  means  is  that  on  high-school  sta- 
tionery inquiries  have  been  sent  to  other  companies.  Shortly  after 
they  are  sent  to  other  companies,  your  companies  write  these  people 
who  made  the  inquiry,  the  children  who  made  the  inquiries. 

Mr.  Roth.  I  can  answer  that  fully  and  very  briefly. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  In  other  words,  you  exchange  lists? 

Mr.  Roth.  We  do  not. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  puts  you  on  notice  that  these  inquiries 
were  from  children,  but  shortly  after  the  inquiries  are  made  of  other 
companies,  your  companies  get  the  list  and  send  them  literature. 

Mr.  Roth.  Oh,  that  happens;  yes.     That  can  happen. 

In  the  first  place,  I  want  to  say,  w-hen  you  talk  about  companies  like 
mine,  I  want  to  correct  that.  There  isn't  a  company  like  mine.  My 
business  is  unique,  there  is  nothing  like  it  in  the  world.  No.  1. 


No.  2,  we  have  consistently  in  all  our  experience  refused  to  rent  9ut 
our  lists,  except  to  legitimate  enterprises,  like  insurance  companies, 
Life,  Esquire,  Time,  all  the  big  magazines. 

We  have  been  offered  as  much  as  $30  a  thousand,  which  is  twice  as 
much  as  the  regular  rate,  for  people,  such  as  some  of  your  other  wit- 
nesses here,  to  use  our  lists.  We  have  never,  never,  allowed  anyone 
but  a  legitimate  enterprise  to  use  our  lists,  and  that  we  have  kept 
down  to  a  certain  number. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Roth,  you  just  stated  that  there  is  no  other 
business  in  the  countrv  like  yours. 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right.  . 

Mr.  Chumbris.  You  stated  a  while  ago  that  you  are  connected  with 
Gargoyle  Sales  Corp. 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right. 

Mv.  Chumbris.  I  hereby  show  you  an  exhibit  of  advertisement  of 
girls  being  whipped,  or  what  is  known  as  fetish  and  bondage  pictures, 
which  is  a  type  of  photograph  and  material  sent  out  by  another  com- 
pany here  in  New  i'ork  City.  I  would  like  for  you  to  look  at  that 
[handing  to  witness]. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Will  you  identify  that  as  being  some  ot  the 
literature  that  your  company  has  sent  out  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Oh,  no.  That's  an  entirely  different  company;  it  has 
nothing  to  do  with  me. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  You  just  stated  that  Gargoyle  Sales 

Mr.  Roth.  I  had  a  company  called  Gargoyle  Books.  This  is  Gar- 
goyle Sales  Corp.  It  hasn't  the  remotest  connection  with  me.  And 
I  would  like  to  see  all  the  others  that  you  think  are  like  my  business 
[returning  to  Mr.  Chumbris] . 

Mr.  Chumbris.  I  read  you  the  name  of  Gargoyle  Sales  Corp.,  and 
you  said  it  was  your  company. 

Mr.  Roth.  One  thing  to  answer  as  honestly  as  I  could,  and  hearing 
"Gargoyle,"  which  is  a  part  of  the  name — I  never  heard  of  this 

Mr.  Chumbris.  This  particular  company  is  not  one  of  your  com- 

Mr.  Roth.  I  never  heard  of  the  name  before. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  But  the  others  that  we  have  shown  you.  Good  Times, 
and  so  forth.  The  American 

Mr.  Roth.  These  are  my  circulars  and  my  business.  I  stand  for 
them,  and  I  do  not  believe  that  anyone  under  25  could  possibly  be 
influenced ;  and  if  they  were  influenced,  it  would  be  for  the  good. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  don't  think  anyone  under  25  could  be 
influenced  for  the  bad  from  these  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  What  would  be  bad  ?  The  worst  they  could  do  is  buy  the 
book,  and  the  books  are 

Chairman  KEFAU^^2R.  Let  me  get  this  again.  Wliat  did  you  say 
about  25  ,  a  minute  ago,  that  you  did  not  believe  anyone  under  25  or  over 
25  would  be  influenced  for  the  bad  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  believe  that  very  few  people — it's  very  difficult  to 
talk  in  a  generality  like  under  25,  over  25 — very  few  people  who 
haven't  had  a  certain  amount  of  experience  would  be  attracted  by  this 
sophisticated  language  with  which  we  sell  this. 

We  don't — I  haven't,  for  instance,  read  that  circular,  I  never  saw 
it,  and  I  never  saw  the  name  before,  but  I  would  be  willing  to  bet 


that  that  would  prove  my  case.    This  is  how  they  sell,  and  this  is  how 
I  sell.  ,     ^ 

I  sell  only  fine  books.  The  biggest  seller  on  my  list  m  the  last  4 
years  has  been  a  book  called  "My  sister  and  I"  by  Frederick  Weacher, 
and  that  is  a  philosophical  book.  I  have  been  able  to  get  that  in 
almost  100,000  homes,  and  that  is  a  triumph.  I  don't  expect  any  medals 
for  it,  but  I  don't  expect  to  be  called  a  publisher  of  pornographic 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Of  course  the  thing  is  not  the  reading  ma- 
terial on  these  things  so  much  as  the  pictures  that  you  have  sent  around. 

Mr.  EoTH.  I  disagree  with  you,  Mr.  Kefauver;  I  really  do  not 
agree  with  that. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  If  pictures  do  not  make  any  difference,  why 
do  you  put  so  many  pictures  on  them  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  am  a  salesman.  I  remember  once  going  into  a  haber- 
dashery shop  and  asking  to  buy  a  shirt  I  saw  in  the  window,  and  what 
Vv'as  shown  me  didn't  look  at  all  like  it. 

I  said,  "Is  that  the  same  shirt  I  saw  in  the  window  ?" 

The  man  said,  "Yes,  Mister,  but  I  spend  a  lot  of  money  on  the  lights 
in  my  window,  and  I  can't  expect  an  ordinary  shirt  to  look  like  that." 

If  I  do  it  with  good  books,  I  don't  think  that  could  be  held  against 

Mr.  Chumbris.  ]\Ir.  Roth,  you  have  not  yet  fully  explained  your 
role  in  avoiding  sending  that  particular  type  of  advertisement  ta 

Mr.  Roth.  To  young  people,  you  mean  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  In  view  of  the  fact  that  you  buy,  rent,  exchange,  or 
what  have  you,  mailing  lists  with  other  concerns. 

Mr.  Roth.  But  I  have  just  told  you  that  I  don't. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  What  is  that? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  have  just  told  you  that  I  do  not  rent  my  lists  to  anyone 
except  people  like  Life,  Time,  Esquire;  these  people  rent  my  lists  2 
or  3  times  a  year  because  mine  are  adult  buyers  and  can  subscribe  to  a 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Don't  you  rent  lists  from  a  party  in  Brooklyn  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  "From,"  but  not  "to."   That's  the  difference. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That  is  what  I  am  referring  to.  If  you  are  renting 
from  a  party,  and  you  do  not  make  a  clear  and  direct  analysis  of  the 
ages  of  that  name  list,  then  j^our  material  could  get  to  juveniles,  could 
it  not? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  believe  that  in  that  respect  my  business  could  be  rein- 
forced a  little  bit  by  greater  care.  I  admit  that ;  but  I  am  always  given 
the  assurance  that  the  people  who  bought  these  things  spent,  at  least 
$1.98,  and  that  they  were  mature  people.  That's  the  best  I  can  do  at 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Well,  now,  how  many  lists  do  you  buy,  how 
many  thousands  of  names  on  them  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Well,  now,  a  company  in  Brooklyn  was  mentioned  from 
whom  I  bought  approximately  180,000  names,  which  dwindled  down 
to  about  70,000. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Would  you  like  to  give  his  name,  please,  for  the 
record  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  don't  know  whether  I  should.  I  don't  know  whether  I 
shouldn't,  because  I  was  assured  that  these  were  names  of  people  who 


bought  pinups.  Now,  pinups,  I  do  not  consider  them  as  obscene  mat- 
ter.   I  consider  them  a  little  like  the  things  I  myself  use. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  In  other  words,  you  have  a  pmup  mailing 
list  to  send  your  literature? 

Mr.  KoTH.  That's  right ;  yes. 

Chairman  Ivefauver.  Mr.  Chumbris,  you  know  the  name  of  the  man 
in  Brooklyn ;  you  give  it  to  us. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Vallon;  is  that  right? 

Mr.  RoTii.  Yes. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Will  you  give  the  full  name  and  address? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  have  his  full  name  and  his  address  in  my  books,  but  I 
don't  remember  it.  I  think,  if  you  have  difficulty  finding  his  name  m 
the  Brooklyn  directory,  his  business  goes  under  the  name  of  Mapleton 
Books,  Mapleton  something-or-other. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Anyway,  Mr.  Vallon  has  a  pmup  list  of  about 
180,000  names  to  which  he  sends  pinup  materials  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  rented  his  list  to  send  out  this  literature  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  That  list  I  bought.  I  didn't  rent  it.  But  we  dwindled 
it  down  to  about  70,000. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Suppose  we  question  the  other  list  that  you 

bought?  . 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  the  only  list  that  I  have  ever  bought  m  my  lite. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  other  lists  have  you  rented? 

Mr  Roth.  I  have  rented  lists  from  a  regular  list  house  called  Book 
Buyers  Lists.  That's  what  it  is  called.  That's  on  369  Broadway. 
They  are  a  very  legitimate  and  fine  enterprise. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  do  you  do  to  get  the  names  of  the 
juveniles  out  of  them  ?  It  would  seem  that  when  you  see  a  high  school 
and  when  you  see  the  account  down  in  North  Carolina,  you  would 
know  that  that  was  a  juvenile. 

Mr.  Roth.  We  would  know  that.  I  would  mention  this,  although 
I  do  not  hold  it  against  these  people,  because  they  have  a  very  heavy 
business,  but  I  do  not  mail  out,  they  mail  out  for  me.  I  pay  for  the 
postage— no,  no,  forgive  me.  I  do  mail  that  out,  but  it  is  very  diffi- 
enlt  to— if  I  make  a  mailing,  say,  of  10,000,  it  is  very  difficult  to  go 
through  and  try  to  catch  that. 

I  should  say  that  we  are  supported  by  the  feeling  that  we  are  not 
selling  them  anything  bad,  that's  all.  But  we  have  had  an  under- 
standing in  advance  that  we  do  not  contain  the  names  of  juveniles. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Roth,  do  you  think  it  would  be  bad  and 
deleterious  for  the  children  for  you  to  mail  this  stuff  to  the  children? 

Mr.  Roth.  It  would  be  very  bad  business  for  me,  I  can  tell  you. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  mean,  it  would  be  bad  for  them,  too,  would 
it  not  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  don't  think  they  would  pay  any  attention  to  it.  I  give 
you  my  word  of  honor. 

I  have  brought  up  a  family.  I  have  grandchildren,  and  my  grand- 
children occasionally  come  to  see  me.  They  look  at  these  things  and 
they  drop  them. 

I  can't  see — an  adult  would  be  interested — but  I  cannot  see  how 
children  would  be  interested. 

Chairman  Kefau\'ER.  And  you  think  an  adult  would  pay  more  at- 
tention to  them  than  children  would? 


Mr    Roth.  They  do  pay  attention,  or  I  wouldn't  be  in  business. 

Senator  Langer.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  call  attention  to  the  fact  that 
a  few  moments  ago  the  witness  stated  that  he  had  sent  out  10  million. 
It  is  curious  where  he  got  all  the  10  million  names. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  that  the  number  you  sent  out— m  how  long 

a  period  of  time?  „    ,  ^  ,  •   j 

Mr.  Roth.  No,  I  meant  that  these  were  culled  from  a  long  period 

of  my  business,  and  that  in  that  period  I  have  sent  out  over  10  million 

^  That's  a  guess,  by  the  way,  the  10  million.  It  could  be  20  million 
and  it  might  be  only  5.  I  think  it  would  be  around  10  million,  because 
mv  instincts  in  such  matters  are  good. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let's  follow  Senator  Langer  s  question. 

Where  did  you  get  a  mailing  list  for  10  million^ 

Mr.  Roth.  I  haven't  a  mailing  list  for  10  million,  but  I  have,  say, 
a  mailing  list  for  only  10,000  in  10  years  I  could  send  it  out  10  mil- 
lion times— I  mean,  I  could  send  out  to  10  million  people.  It  wasn't 
intended  to  be  a  single  mailing. 

I  don't  think  anybody  in  the  United  States  since  the  Literary 
Digest  died,  has  sent  out  as  many  as  10  million  pieces  of  mail. 

Senator  Langer.  A  moment  ago  you  said  you  had  400,000  names,  did 
you  not,  Mr.  Witness  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right.    That's  very  far  from  10  million. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  mailing  permit  do  you  have  to  send 
these  through  the  mails  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  have  the  regular  Pitney  Bowes  machine  permit. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  that  second-class  'I 

Mr,  Roth.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Second-class  permit? 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right. 

May  I  mention  one  more  thing? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Have  you  had  any  trouble  with  the  Post 
Office  Department  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Oh,  lots  of  trouble. 

We  have  a  sign  in  our  door  that  has  been  there  ever  since  I  can 
remember,  maybe  18  years.  It  has  been  on  different  doors,  of  course, 
and  the  sign  says  "No  books  sold  on  the  premises."  No  book  goes  out 
which  hasn't  got  on  it  the  post  office's  permission  to  open  it  and 
examine  it. 

Mr.  CiiuMBRis.  A  moment  ago  you  said  you  had  plenty  of  trouble 
with  the  Post  Office  Department,  but  you  always  worked  it  out.  That 
is  not  exactly  true,  is  it  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes ;  the  post  office  accuses  me  of  having  sent  an  obscene 
book  through  the  mails,  such  as  Beautiful  Sinners  of  New  York,  and 
it  is  put  before  a  jury,  and  the  jury  comes  back  a  few  minutes  later 
and  sees  nothing  wrong  with  it.  I  have  straightened  it  out  with  the 
post  office. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Have  you  ever  been  convicted  of  a  violation  of  a 
post  office  regulation? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes;  for  selling  Ulysses,  by  James  Joyce,  which  is  now 
must  reading  in  all  colleges  and  high  schools.  Not  all  of  them,  but 
enough  of  them. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  When  was  that? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  think  1929. 


Mr.  Chumbris.  Aiid  then,  in  1930,  you  were  also  convicted  of  viola- 
tions ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Whenever  I  was  convicted  of  a  violation  of  a  book  that 

1  sent  through  the  mails  I  believed  it  was  safe  to  send  it.  There  are 
differences  of  opinion  on  that,  yes;  usually  I  go  to  jail,  and  then  the 
laws  confirm  my  being  right. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  In  1936,  would  you  please  explain  whether  you  had 
any  difficulty  with  the  law  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  had  a  great  deal  of  difficulty.  I  went  to  prison  that 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Explain  it,  please. 

Mr.  Roth.  It  involved  about  seven  books  which  the  post  office  con- 
sidered obscene. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Did  you  go  to  prison  for  that  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right ;  I  just  told  you  that. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  How  long  did  you  serve  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  served  a  3-year  sentence. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  In  1941,  did  you  have  any  trouble  with  the  law? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes;  you  have  the  record  there.    You  tell  me. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  April  14,  1941,  you  were  found  guilty  of  violating 
probation,  is  that  correct;  and  your  probation  was  extended  to  Decem- 
ber 16,  1946 ;  is  that  correct  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes.  May  I  say  something  now  ?  The  district  attorney 
in  charge  of  that  case  opened  the  case  against  me — I  was  really  not 
convicted  there.  The  judge  dismissed  it.  He  opened  the  case  by  say- 
ing, "This  defendant  is  not  being  accused  of  selling  any  book  which 
cannot  be  found  in  any  bookstore  in  the  United  States.  We  just  don't 
like  a  man  on  parole  to  sell  these  books." 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Your  statement  that  you  had  difficulty  with  the 
Post  Office  Department,  but  you  always  worked  it  out,  wasn't  exactly 
true,  was  it? 

Mr.  Roth.  Well,  I  worked  it  out  even  when  I  went  to  prison.  You 
must  try  it  sometime. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That  gives  a  different  connotation  than  "working 
it  out." 

Mr.  Roth.  I  mean  that  eventually  the  laws  almost  always  justified 
what  I  had  done.  For  instance,  there  was  a  time  when  you  could  go 
to  prison  for  just  a  picture  like  this.  Now  you  find — I  would  like  to 
read  you  a  list  of  the  magazines  that  publish  nudes  almost  all  the  time. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Before  you  get  to  that  list — you  have  quite  a 
record  here  of  arrests,  and  being  in  court,  and  you  and  your  wife  to- 
gether, usually. 

Mr.  Rom.  That's  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  your  wife  in  all  of  these  matters? 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  She  has  been  convicted,  too;  is  that  correct? 

Mr.RoTH.  The  only  thing  I  can  tell  you  is  that  we  were  right. 

Chairman  Kefau^t^r.  Sit  down,  Mr.  Roth. 

On  December  16,  apparently  you  and  your  wife  got  convicted  for 

2  years,  and  she  got  a  suspended  sentence;  is  that  right? 
"Slv.  Roth.  That  is  correct. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Chumbris,  you  have  this  entire  history 
here.  Do  you  want  to  go  over  it,  or  do  you  want  to  show  it  to  Mr. 
Roth  ? 


Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Roth,  on  February  27,  1928,  you  pleaded  guilty 
to  mailing  obscene  literature,  and  were  fined  $500  and  given  6  months' 
suspended  sentence;  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Roth.  That  is  correct.    Would  you  like  me  to  explain  it? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Let  me  go  through  this. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Give  him  a  right  to  explain.  You  plead 
guilty  ? 

Mr.  RoTii.  I  plead  guilty  after  a  conference  with  Judge  Knox.  I 
pointed  out  the  book  was  a  Hindu  classic,  and  it  should  be  permitted 
to  be  sold  at  the  price  which  I  sold  it  for,  which  was  $35  a  copy. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  did  you  plead  guilty  for? 

Mr.  Roth.  On  the  advice  of  counsel — very  bad  advice, 

Mr.  Chumbris.  On  October  19,  1928,  sentenced  to  serve  3  months 
on  Welfare  Island  for  possessing  and  selling  obscene  books. 

Mr.  Roth.  That  is  correct.  It  was  a  book  which  I  have  since  sold 
freely  and  through  the  post  office  for  a  great  many  years. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Did  you  plead  guilty,  or  were  you  convicted  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  was  convicted  of  that  in  special  sessions. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  November  27,  1929,  arrested  for  possession  and  sale 
of  obscene  literature ;  case  dismissed.     Was  that  correct  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  don't  see  why  I  have  to  argue  with  that.     Go  on. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  January  28,  1930,  sentenced  to  6  months  in  Federal 
Detention  House  for  violation  of  probation ;  is  that  correct  ? 

Mr.  Roth,  Yes;  that  is  correct.  I  didn't  consider  it  a  violation  of 
probation,  and  I  think  the  judge  who  kept  the  case — Judge  Knox — 
who  kept  the  case  running  for  3  years,  didn't  either,  except  he  finally 
decided  it  was  better  to  let  me  serve  a  sentence.  I  didn't  serve  6 
months.     He  changed  it  to  2  months  at  the  last  minute. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  July  7,  1930,  sentenced  to  serve  60  days  for  the  sale 
and  possession  of  obscene  books.     Where  was  that  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  know  where  that  was.  That  was  Philadelphia,  and 
that  was  for  protecting  Ulysses  so  my  grandchildren  and  your  grand- 
children will  be  able  to  read  that  book. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Did  you  plead  guilty? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  did  plead  guilty.  Mr.  Kefauver,  I  was  threatened  by 
the  man  who  ruled  Philadelphia  if  I  dared  stand  trial  on  that  book, 
he  would  see  that  I  got  at  least  3  years.     I  have  witnesses  to  that. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  pled  guilty  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  had  to  plead  guilty. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  December  16, 1936,  sentenced  to  3  years  in  Lewisburg 
Penitentiary  for  mailing  obscene  literature, 

Mr.  Roth.  You  covered  that. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  April  14, 1941,  found  guilty  of  violating  probation; 
probation  extended  to  December  16,  1946. 

Mr.  Roth.  I  have  already  covered  that. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Then  recently,  last  year,  you  had  some  difficulty  with 
the  State  authorities  on  obscene  literature;  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right.  Have  you  on  the  record  what  happened 
on  that? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Yes;  I  think  last  week  the  matter  was  thrown  out 
of  court  for  illegal  search  and  seizure ;  is  that  correct  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Not  only  that,  but  because  they  picked  up  70,000  books 
on  my  premises  and  didn't  find  a  single  bad  one  there,  and  there  were 
none,  and  they  are  all  being  returned  to  me. 

G52G3— 55 14 


Mr.  Chumbris.  Was  there  any  official  ruling  to  that  effect? 

Mr.  Roth.  No;  but  I  have  no  doubt  that  the  official  ruling  will 
be  made  some  day,  maybe  today. 

Mr,  Chumbris.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  they  didn't  even  go  into  the 
contents  of  the  book;  they  only  went  into  the  question  of  whether 
the  search  was  legal  or  illegal  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  That  is  true,  but  I  do  know  they  went  into  the  books. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  Post  Office  Department  issued  fraudu- 
lent orders  against  trade  styles  used  by  you  back  in  1942? 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  does  that  mean  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  "Fraud''  in  the  language  of  the  post  office  means  almost 
anything  except  fraud,  but  it  meant  in  my  case  that  I  had  described 
books  as  very  sexy,  which  they  didn't  think  sexy  at  all.  That  is  the 
whole  thing. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  overstated  the  sex  angle  in  your  books  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  That  is  it.  I  admitted  that,  but  I  thought  I  had  a  right 
to  since  it  got  good  books  into  the  hands  of  people  who  otherwise 
wouldn't  have  gotten  them. 

Chairman  Kefauvt.r.  I  don't  understand,  Mr.  Roth,  why  it  is  that 
you  have  a  great  number  of  corporations.  I  have  never  seen  such 
a  list.  Did  you  operate  through  one  at  one  time  and  another  one 
at  another  time  ?    Why  is  that  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  It  is  for  reasons  that  anyone  in  the  publishing  busi- 
ness can  explain.  I  am  not  the  only  such  publisher.  I  sell  philosoph- 
ical books — and  for  every  kind  I  have,  I  have  a  different  name. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  For  each  book  you  have  a  different  corpora- 
tion i 

Mr.  Roth.  Every  kind  of  book. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Isn't  the  real  idea  that  if  one  gets  knocked 
off  by  the  postal  authorities,  you  can  continue  to  operate  your  other 
corporations  ^ 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right.  Not  only  that.  If  there  is  any  implica- 
tion in  that  that  I  do  that  to  hide  myself,  that  isn't  true.  I  do  not 
change  my  address,  110  Lafayette  Street. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  one  corporation  publishing  5  or  6 
different  types  of  books,  and  if  one  was  found  in  violation  of  postal 
operations,  they  might  stop  your  whole  business? 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  So  you  have  all  these  various  corporations? 

Mr.  Roth.  Not  only  for  that. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  It  enables  you  to  send  out  literature  in  dif- 
ferent names  to  prospective  purchasers  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  My  prospective  purchasers  know  when  they  come  from 
tlie  8th  floor  at  110  Lafayette  Street,  that  we  are  the  people  from 
whom  they  bought  in  the  past. 

Cliairman  KEFAu^'ER.  Do  you  think  the  children  know  that? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  don't  think  the  children  care.  I  don't  think  it  is  part 
of  that  thing.  I  think  you  pay  too  much  attention  to  that,  and  there- 
fore, do  not  pay  attention  to  things  that  are  more  vital. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  is  what  this  committee  is  organized 
for — to  see  what  the  children  are  getting. 

For  some  reason,  Mr.  Roth,  there  has  been  a  very  sharp  increase, 
over  110  percent  in  the  last  10  years  of  sex  crimes  among  juveniles. 


You  see  about  it  in  tlie  papers,  and  we  had  always  been  taught,  at 
least  we  thought,  that  there  was  something  to  the  fact  that  children 
the  atmosphere,  environment,  and  the  kind  of  things  they  read  affected 
them.  Psychiatrists  and  parents  have  told  us,  and  have  written  us 
that  the  smutty  literature  and  pamphlets  we  see  here  that  you  are 
sending  out,  do  not  have  a  very  wholesome  effect  on  young  people. 
Don't  you  think  that  is  true  ? 

Mr.  EoTH.  No.    I  don't  believe  any  circulars  like  this. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Why  is  it  you  have  been  so  careful — or  rather 
you  think  you  have  been  careful  not  to  send  this  to  young  people  'i 

Mr.  Roth.  The  only  reason  why  I  have  been  careful  mostly,  I  do 
not  believe  this  can  possibly  touch  the  psychology  of  a  juvenile,  but 
mostly  I  have  been  careful  because  it  would  be  very  bad  business  to 
send  out  circulars  and  get  no  returns.  You  can  only  get  returns 
from  mature  people.  I  am  quite  candid  in  telling  you  that.  I  think 
that  the  idea  that  the  present  juvenile  delinquency  comes  of  por- 
nographic literature,  I  think  it  slightly  wrong.  I  was  a  child  myself 
in  the  public  schools  of  New  York. 

Chairman  IvEFAUATiR.  You  think  that  is  overrated  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  think  it  is  very  much  overrated. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  naturally  think  it  is  overrated  since 
that  is  your  business  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes;  I  admit  I  could  be  prejudiced  by  that. 

Chairman  Ivefauver.  You  would  be  reluctant  to  admit  that  your 
business  was  doing  very  much  to  adversely  affect  juveniles,  but  you 
are  in  the  business. 

Mr.  RoTii.  I  am  in  the  business,  and  occasionally  circulars  of  mine 
might  reach  juveniles,  but  I  do  not  think  that  I  could  have  any  possible 
effect  on  that,  and  I  do  not  believe  that  the  very  worst  kinds  of  these 
things  can  be  avoided,  because  they  are  underground.  They  do  not 
send  out  mail  the  way  I  do.  They  reach  children  the  way  they 
reach  children  when  I  was  a  child.  They  come  to  you  in  front  of 
school,  and  offer  you  an  obscene  pamphlet. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  don't  want  to  labor  the  point.  You  don't 
think  it  is  too  bad  for  children,  your  type  of  literature,  although  you 
claimed  at  first  you  have  taken  unusual  precaution  about  young- 
people  getting  it.  You  wouldn't  put  your  judgment  up  against  that 
of  J.  Edgar  Hoover,  would  you  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  don't  know  about  that.  If  Mr.  Hoover  made  a  study 
of  this,  he  would  know  more  than  I  do. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  If  Mr.  Hoover  said  that  it  was  degrading 
and  increased  criminal  tendencies,  and  was  one  of  the  real  evil  influ- 
ences leading  to  juvenile  delincjuency,  you  would  rather  have  his  judg- 
ment than  yours  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes,  but  I  don't  believe  he  had  tliese  circulars  in  mind. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  He  talked  about  this  kind  of  literature,  too. 
I  read  his  statement  into  the  record  the  first  day  here. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Roth,  what  is  your  gross  income  from  your  op- 
erations in  these  books  that  we  are  discussing  here  this  morning? 

Mr.  Roth.  It  is  around  $260,000,  $270,000  a  year. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  What  is  the  net  profit  that  you  receive  from  that 
gross  income  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  can  put  it  to  you  this  way :  I  get  a  salary  of  $10,000  a 
year,  my  wife  gets  a  salary  of  $3,000  a  year,  and  at  the  end  of  the  year, 


we  have  never  yet  had  so  much  money  left  that  I  could  withdraw  and 
call  it  a  profit.  My  books  are  open.  We  do,  I  think,  very  well,  be- 
cause our  ap])etites  are  not  too  great. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  I  didn't  hear  that  last  statement. 

Mr.  Roth.  I  said  we  do  pretty  well,  living  as  we  do  in  our  com- 
munity, and  I  am  satisfied  with  what  I  do. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Of  the  $260,000  to  $270,000  gross,  you  say  that  you 
receive  $10,000  a  year  and  your  wife  receive  $3,000  salary  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  And  you  have  very  little  to  share  as  profit  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  At  the  end  of  the  year,  yes.     We  have  never  done  it  yet. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  How  many  people  do  you  employ  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  would  say  we  employ  an  average  of  about  15  people. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Fifteen  people  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  At  110  Lafayette  Street? 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  ^Vliat  are  their  duties  mostly  ? 

Mr.  Roth,  They  are  writers,  they  are  file  clerks,  they  are  typists, 
they  are  editors.  I  believe  that  about  covers  it.  Shipping  clerks,  of 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  have  any  persons  who  print  any  of  these 
so-called  2-by-4  booklets? 

Mr.  RoTii,  We  have  never  printed  any  2  by  4  booklets. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Have  you  or  any  of  your  employees  made  any  of  the 
cartoons  that  go  into  these  2-by-4  Jbooklets? 

Mr.  Roth.  No. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  How  much  is  your  subscription  to  all  your 
books  and  magazines  each  year — about  $400,000  ? 

]Mr.  Roth.  I  have  been  asked  the  gross  income.  The  gross  income 
is  around  $260,000,  $270,000. 

Chairman  Kefaitv'er.  Do  you  have  agents  out  on  the  road  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  No. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  send  all  these  books  by  mail  ? 

JVIr.  Roth.  We  solicit  by  mail  and  fill  orders  by  them. 

Chairman  KEFAU^^ER.  You  don't  send  by  mail? 

Mr.  Roth.  None. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Have  you  ever  sent  by  car  or  Railway 
Express  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Never. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Always  by  mail? 

Mr.  Roth.  Railway  Express,  we  mail  occasionally ;  when  a  man  tells 
us  he  has  no  post  office  near  him,  but  there  is  a  Railway  Express  office, 
then  we  make  hiin  pay  the  extra  cartage. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Anything  else? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  have  a  complete  list  of  the  names  and  ad- 
dresses of  your  employees? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Would  you  please  furnish  them  to  the  subcom- 
mittee ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  will  be  very  happy  to. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  For  the  record,  when  will  you  send  that  in, 
Mr.  Roth? 

Mr.  Roth.  If  you  want,  I  will  send  that  in  this  afternoon. 


Chairman  Kefauver.  Anything  else? 

Mr.  Eoth,  do  you  try  to  get  contracts  with  people  so  you  can  have 
publishers  write' their  life  and  experiences  about  them  ? 

Mr.  Eoth.  No.  We  are  asked  to,  and  we  do  not  have  anythnig  to 
do  with  that. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Were  you  president  ot  beven  birens  Fress, 

Inc.  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  That's  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Will  you  explain  what  this  seems  to  be  on 
the  letterhead  of  your  corporation  'I  -,     .    ^      ^ 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes;  I  will  be  very  glad  to.  At  the  end  ot  the  hrst 
Jelke  trial,  I  contacted  the  woman  known  as  Pat  Ward,  and  oli'ered 
her  this  contract  for  a  book.  If  you  meant  this  kind  of  a  contract, 
we  offer  it  to  people  whose  books  miffht  interest  us.  This  contract 
was  never  signed  by  Miss  Ward,  or,  I  know,  by  anybody  else. 

Chairman  Kefau\ter.  If  you  are  dealing  in  abstracts,  and  heroes 
over  in  Europe,  and  metaphysical  characters,  why  do  you  want  to 
get  a  contract  with  Pat  Ward  right  after  the  first  Jelke  trial? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  believe  a  very  fine  book  can  be  made  on  that.  By  the 
way,  there  is  one  in  the  making  anyway. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  didn't  get  the  contract  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  No. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  She  turned  you  down  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  She  wanted  too  much  money. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  is  that  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  She  wanted  too  much  money. 

Chairman    Kefauver.  Any    way,   you    tried   to   negotiate    for    a 

contract  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes ;  the  book  was  to  have  been  written  by  a  very  fine 
writer  and  was  to  have  been  a  very  fine  book. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Why  would  you  like  to  have  a  book  about 
a  person  who  had  just  been  in  a  notorious  trial? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  believe  the  New  Testament  rotates  around  just  that 
kind  of  a  woman. 

Chairman  Kefau\tsr.  In  this  contract,  you  were  going  to  do  the 
dictating,  and  she  was  going  to  attach  the  name  of  Sandra  to  the 

Mr.  Roth.  I  don't  remember  that  as  a  detail,  but  it  you  say  so, 

that  is  true. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  propose  contracts  like  this  to  other 
people  who  claim  notoriety  in  these  kinds  of  trials  ? 

I^Ir.  Roth.  I  believe  that  if  a  book  like  that  has  been  published  by 
me.  and  it  is  possible,  that  it  has  usually  been  planned  in  my  office, 
and  if  it  hasn't,  it  has  usually  been  brought  to  me,  but  whether  it  is 
planned  or  brought,  or  whether  I  write  it  or  it  is  written  by  the  person 
himself,  or  herself,  it  has  to  be  a  good  book  before  I  publish  it. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Paragraph  6  forces  her  to  accept  anything 
you  write  under  the  contract  you  proposed  to  her. 

Mr.  Roth.  May  I  see  that  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Yes ;  that  is  your  contract.  You  can  see  it. 
That  is  what  she  balked  at  ?  She  would  not  agree  to  use  her  name 
at  anything  you  wrote? 

Mr.  Roth.  Forgive  me  now.  I  remember  that  was  just  as  big  a 
stumbling  point  as  the  money.     It  wasn't  Pat  Ward.      It  was  her 


mother  wlio  objected  violently  to  this  paragraph.  I  asked  her  why. 
She  said,  "I  don't  want  any  book  published  in  which  my  daughter  is 
looked  upon  as  a  whore." 

I  said,  "The  emphasis  has  been  made  so  heavily,  I  don't  see  how  you 
can  object." 

If  it  was  $5,000,  it  would  have  been  all  right. 

Chairman  KErAU\T2R.  You  offered  her  $5,000? 

Mr.  Roth.  No. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  offered  a  big  percentage? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes.  I  had  to  do  that  to  make  sure  it  would  be  a  good 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  fact  that  she  was  a  juvenile,  would  that 
have  any  effect? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes,  it  had  consideration.  I  believe  a  book  should 
appear  that  would  give  her  a  chance  for  living  properly.  I  believe 
a  book  like  that  is  in  order  now.  I  believe  that  the  courts  have 

Chairman  Kefaua'er.  You  don't  think  that  a  book  that  you  had  in 
mind  there  would  be  interesting  for  children? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  don't  think  so;  no — not  the  kind  of  book  we  would 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  don't  think  that  would  offend  high- 
school  children? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  don't  think  children  were  interested  in  the  trial. 

Chairman  Kefau\'er.  We  will  ask  you  to  make  this  contract  which 
you  proposed  a  part  of  the  record.     Let  it  be  filed  as  an  exhibit. 

Mr.  Roth.  May  I  say  something? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Sure. 

Mr.  Roth.  You  have  said  this  about  several  of  the  items  that  passed 
here,  '\^'^len  one  has  a  lawyer  at  one's  side,  the  lawyer  usually  says 
he  objects  and  gives  reasons.  I  have  no  means  of  knowing  anything. 
If  you  think  this  should  be  a  part  of  the  record,  I  have  no  reason 
why  it  shouldn't  be. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Roth,  I  think  so,  because  it  shows  the 
kind  of  contracts  that  3'ou  try  to  get,  even  with  minors. 

Mr.  Roth.  May  I  point  out  for  the  record  that  the  reason  why 
paragraph  6  is  there  is  tliat  I  had  no  means  of  laiowing  that  Miss 
Ward  would  put  things  into  that  book  that  might  be  obscene,  that 
might  be  considered  objectionable,  and  since  I  have  to  sell  through 
the  mails,  I  have  to  make  absolutely  certain  that  it  will  be  the  kind 
of  a  book  that  I  sponsor.  I  can  only  sponsor  a  book  that  goes  through 
the  mails. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  How  much  did  you  offer,  and  how  much  did 
she  want  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  think  I  offered  $1,000,  and  she  wanted  $5,000. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Plus  the  royalties? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes,  royalties  would  depend  on  sales.  She  would  have 
been  entitled  to  more  money. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Are  you  a  naturalized  citizen? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauaer.  When  were  you  naturalized ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  am  not  a  naturalized  citizen.  Forgive  me.  I  became 
a  citizen  on  my  father's  papers,  and  that  must  have  been  when  my 
father  became  a  citizen  in  1915.     On  the  other  hand,  in  1940,  or  1939, 


I  went  to  tlie  Immip:ration  Department  and  demanded  a  certificate, 
certifying  that  I  was  a  citizen  on  my  father's  papers,  and  I  have  that 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  think  yoii  became  a  citizen  on  your 
father's  papers  in  1915,  but  in  1939  you  applied  for  citizenship? 

Mr.  KoTH.  Yes.  Some  question  was  raised  about  it  while  I  was  in 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  you  w^ere  issued 

Mr.  RoTii.  A  certificate  of  citizenship. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  year  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  Either  1939  or  1940— probably  1939. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  In  the  district  court  in  the  Federal  Building 
in  New  York  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  No,  I  was  issued  that  on  Columbus  Avenue— the  Immi- 
gration Building.     I  think  it  is  16th  Street. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Did  you  list  these  sentences  and  the  time  you 
served  on  the  application  for  citizenship? 

Mr.  Roth.  Yes;  all  these  things  w^ere  discussed. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Were  they  listed  on  your  application? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  listed  on  the  application  whatever  the  application 
asked  for. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  of  them  ? 

Mr.  Roth,  Yes.    I  don't  know  what  it  was  that  was  asked  then. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Anything  else  ? 

Senator  Langer.  Does  the  staff  have  a  copy  of  the  application  he 
signed  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  You  made  one  comparison  that  I  would  like  for 
you  to  explain.  You  said  that  a  purchase  of  a  shirt  is  comparable 
to  beautiful  nudes.  What  did  you  have  in  mind  when  you  made 
that  statement  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  never  made  such  a  statement. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  said  if  you  went  to  buy  a  shirt,  you 
might  not  be  interested  in  going  into  the  store,  but  if  you  saw  an 
attractive  shirt  out  in  the  window,  you  might  buy  it,  and  that  is  the 
reason  you  put  the  pictures  of  the  nudes  on  your  advertising. 

Mr.  Roth.  That  is  self-explanatory.  If  I  put  pictures  around  a 
description  of  a  book 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  don't  w^ant  to  compare  a  shirt  to  a  nude, 
do  you  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  As  a  means  of  attracting  attention — it  wasn't  a  shirt 
that  was  being  discussed,  it  was  the  lights  that  lit  up  the  shirt  in 
the  window.     I  believe  a  nude  has  the  same  function  in  my  circular. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Roth,  we  appreciate  your  coming  here 
and  talking  very  freely.  You  have  cooperated  in  answering  our 
questions.  I  think  I  must  say  that  I  know  of  no  one  that  we  have 
been  in  touch  with  who  doesn't  feel  that  the  kind  of  slime  that  you 
have  been  sending  through  the  mails  is  highly  deleterious  to  our 
young  people,  and  damaging  to  their  morals,  and  part  of  the  whole 
picture  that  we  have  today  of  the  breakdown  among  a  percentage 
of  our  children ;  that  is  the  opinion  of  most  of  the  experts  that  we 
have  had,  and  I  think  1  should  say  to  you,  Mr.  Roth,  also,  that  of 
all  the  people  engaged  in  this  business,  we  have  had  many,  many 
more  complaints — letters  from  parents,  people  interested  in  the  wel- 
fare of  the  children — criticizing  what  you  have  been  doing,  than  we 


have  of  any  other  person  who  publishes  and  distributes  this  stuff. 

Personally,  I  think  it  is  very  reprehensible. 

Thank  you,  Mr.  Koth. 

Mr.  Roth.  May  I  say  something? 

Chairman  Kefauver,  Yes. 

Senator  Langp:k.  The  subcommittee  agrees  entirely  in  what  you 
have  just  said  about  this  stuff. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  It  may  be  within  the  law,  but  it  has  been  on 
the  border  of  the  law.  Sometimes  it  has  been  legal  and  sometimes 
illegal,  but  that  isn't  entirely  the  question  here. 

You  have  something  to  say  ? 

Mr.  Roth.  I  believe  the  people  who  have  criticized  me  are  wrong. 
I  believe  you  are  a  great  deal  more  wrong  than  they  are,  because  you 
are  sitting  in  judgment  on  me,  and  I  believe  that  I  will  someday 
within  the  very  near  future  convince  you  that  you  are  wrong. 

Cliairman  Keeauver.  It  will  take  a  good  deal  of  convincing. 

Mr.  Roth.  I  will  do  it. 

Cliairman  Kefauver.  Thank  you,  Mr.  Roth. 

Dr.  Henry. 


Chairman  Ivefauver.  Dr.  Henry,  you  are  going  to  give  expert  testi- 
mony. You  may  mention  names.  Do  you  solemnly  swear  the  testi- 
mony you  will  give  will  be  the  whole  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  I  do. 

Chairman  KEFAu^^ER.  During  the  course  of  our  investigation  in  this 
field,  I  have  been  shocked  that  there  are  people  who  engage  in  the 
business  of  teaching  sex  deviation  to  young  people,  and  people  who 
make  a  profit  therefrom.  Because  of  inadequacy  of  our  present  Fed- 
eral rules,  we  are  calling  witnesses  who  will  testify  as  to  the  cause  and 
result  of  this  menace. 

Dr.  Henry,  do  you  live  at  184  Eldridge  Street,  New  York  City,  and 
you  are  a  psychiatrist  and  nationally  known  expert  in  psychosexual 
maladjustments.     We  know  of  your  reputation  and  your  standing. 

Mr.  Vince  Gaughan,  who  is  a  special  counsel  of  our  subcommittee, 
whose  home  is  in  Buffalo,  has  been  helping  us  here,  and  doing  a  good 
job  for  the  subcommittee  in  New  York,  will  ask  you  some  questions. 

Mr.  GAUGTiAisr.  Doctor,  will  you  please,  for  the  record,  give  us  your 
name  and  address  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  Dr.  George  W.  Henry,  and  my  home  address  is  Green- 
wich, Conn. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  xVnd  for  the  record.  Doctor,  would  you  state  the  pro- 
fession in  which  you  are  engaged  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  I  am  a  psychiatrist. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  How  long  have  you  practiced  psychiatry.  Doctor? 

Dr.  Henry.  Since  1916. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Doctor,  would  you  please  give  us  your  educational 
background  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  I  was  graduated  from  Johns  Hopkins  Medical  School 
in  1916.  I  have  been  on  the  staff  of  the  New  York  Hospital  since 
1917,  and  I  am  associate  professor  of  clinical  psychiatry  at  the  Cornell 
University  Medical  College. 


Mr.  Gaughan.  Doctor,  are  you  presently  engaged  in  the  private 
practice  of  medicine  and  psychiatry? 

Dr.  Hexry.  I  am. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Are  you  also  presently  associated  with  any  medical 
group  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes.  I  am  a  fellow  of  the  American  Medical  Associ- 
ation, a  fellow  of  the  American  Psychiatric  Association;  I  am  past 
president  of  the  New  York  Psychiatric  Society,  and  I  am  a  member 
of  a  number  of  other  societies.     I  am  a  diplomate  in  psychiatry. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Doctor,  could  you  tell  us,  is  there  a  growing  tendency 
today  toward  sex  deviations  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  That  is  my  impression. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  From  your  experience  can  you  tell  us  what  age 
group  is  most  susceptible  to  deviation  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  Adolescence. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Can  such  deviation  from  the  normal  manifest  it- 
self in  a  number  of  forms? 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Would  you  elaborate  on  that —  the  forms  that  devia- 
tion can  take  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  Well,  that  involves  quite  a  big  problem.  I  will  try  to 
state  it  briefly. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Doctor,  just  tell  us — what  we  want  to  know 
about  here  is  the  problem  of  juvenile  delinquency,  and  the  effect  of 
this  material  that  we  have  been  seeing  here,  as  to  whether  it  is  harm- 
ful or  not,  and  what  the  committee  and  public  can  do,  and  w^hat  you 
feel  you  are  familiar  wnth,  to  help  this  situation  and  problem,  to 
give  our  young  people  a  better  chance. 

Dr.  Henry.  I  have  heard  the  testimony  given  this  morning,  and  if 
you  want  a  simple  answer  I  would  say  that  what  I  heard,  what  I 
learned  from  what  is  published,  I  would  say  it  is  harmful  to  adoles- 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Are  people  born  wdth  such  perversions  bred  in  them, 
or  must  be  taught  and  educated  along  this  line  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  I  could  scarely  imagine  that  anyone  was  born  with 
these  tendencies.  There  may  be  certain  potentialities  that  can  be 
trained,  but  I  don't  believe  anybody  would  arrive  at  these  various 
deviations  unless  they  had  some  training. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Doctor,  would  you  tell  us  what  is  a  fetish? 

Dr.  Henry.  A  fetish  is  usually  some  object,  material,  or  substance 
which  becomes  the  chief  source  of  sexual  stimulus  for  a  particular 

Mr.  Gaughan.  In  your  medical  textbook  entitled  "All  the  Sexes'^ 
you  state  in  your  chapter  on  fetishes  that  high  heel  fetish,  and  women's 
lingerie  fetish  are  two  of  the  more  common  types  of  fetishes. 

Dr.  Henry.  That  is  correct,  but  any  kind  of  clothing,  any  part  of 
the  body  might  become  attractive  or  might  become  a  fetish  for  a 
particular  person. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Used  as  a  substitute  for  the  normal  sex  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  That  is  right.  It  can  become  and  does  become  as  excit- 
ing to  them  as  any  other  part  of  the  body,  or  the  body,  to  what  is 
called  a  normal  person. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Doctor,  is  there  such  a  thing  as  leather  and  rubber 
fetish  ? 


Dr.  Henry.  Yes;  that  is  true. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Is  there  also  a  fetish  known  as  bondage,  in  which 
people  are  trussed  up '? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  do  you  mean  by  leather  and  rubber 

Dr.  Henry.  There  are  various  devices  that  are  manufactured  for 
enclosing  parts  of  the  body,  and  that  are  used  for  the  purpose  of 
exciting  people  sexually. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  In  other  words,  certain  leather  types  of  shoes  and 
boots  and  so  on  can  be  used  as  a  substitute  for  a  sexual  outlet  by  per- 
sons who  are  trained  along  that  line,  who  so  enjoy  it  ? 

Dr.  Hexry.  That  is  correct.  Almost  anything  can  become  a  fetish, 
even  a  violin. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Is  there  a  type  of  sexual  deviation  that  is  known  as 
bondage  where  a  person  is  trussed  up  with  ropes  and  chains? 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes ;  that  is  fairly  common. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  say  bondage  is  fairly  common? 

Dr.  Henry.  Fairly  common  in  this  particular  group,  that  is  the 
group  of  sexual  deviates. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Tell  us  more  about  that  bondage  being  fairly 

Dr.  Henry.  Among  those  who  are  familiar  with  this  variety  of 
sexual  deviation,  it  is  a  matter  of  common  knowledge  to  them.  It  is 
not  common  knowledge  to  the  general  public. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  mean  they  like  to  see  someone  who  is 
bound  up  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes ;  they  do. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Pictures  of  them? 

Dr.  Henry.  Some  of  them  do. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  And  some  of  them  might  be  bound  up  by  themselves  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Is  the  act  of  spanking  a  part  of  the  flagellation 
technique  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes ;  one  of  the  milder  forms. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  mean  whipping? 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes ;  whipping  in  any  form,  even  to  the  extent  of  draw- 
ing blood. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  say  it  is  a  minor  form.  What  are  the 
more  violent  forms  ? 

Dr.  Hexry.  They  use  actual  whips,  straps,  sticks. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Sometimes  they  use  the  hands,  sometimes  whips, 
sometimes  chains,  and  hairbrushes? 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Is  there  a  sex  deviation  wherein  two  females  are 
able  to  hnd  an  erotic  satisfaction  by  inflicting  pain  and  injury  upon 
each  other? 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Wliat  form  of  deviation  does  that  come  under? 

Dr.  Henry.  Sadism  and  masochism. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Dr.  Henry,  I  am  going  to  come  down  by  you,  be- 
cause my  questions  are  of  such  a  form  that  I  have  to  ask  you  to  iden- 
tify a  number  of  pictures  that  I  am  going  to  produce  as  an  exhibit 
here  today. 


Dr.  Henry,  I  show  you  a  booklet  entitled  "Cartoons  and  Model 
Parade"  published  by  one  Irving  Klaw,  of  212  East  14th  Street,  in 
New  York  City.  I  specihcally  call  your  attention  to  the  movie  ottered 
hy  said  Klaw  as  advertised  on  pa<ie  o  of  this  publication,  called 
"Negligee  Fight."  I  note  that  the  heading  reads  that  this  16-milli- 
meter movie  shows  the  terrific  battle  that  ensues  when  both  girls  claim 
a  black  negligee,  and,  Doctor,  I  ask  you,  is  this  a  form  of  the  sadism  or 
masochistic  type  of  perversion  to  which  we  w^ere  just  referring  when 
I  asked  you  if  two  females  can  get  erotic  pleasure  from  such  carry- 
ing on  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  That  is  true. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  I  also  call  to  your  attention  page  3  of  this  same 
publication,  to  pictures  entitled,  "Chris  Strips  for  Bed."  The  mention 
there  is  the  fact  that  she  wears — it  specifically  mentions  she  wears 
6-inch  high  heel,  patent  leather  shoes.  It  mentions  how  she  goes 
through  this  sensuous  art  of  disrobing,  and  along  with  that  I  direct 
your  attention  to  page  6  of  this  same  publication,  and  on  page  6  we 
find  "Lounging  Around  in  Lingerie,"  in  which  the  man  who  offers 
this  publication  says  he  will  sell  this  particular  movie  for  $8,  and  he 
notes  particularly  the  fact  that  the  models  wear  6-inch  high  heel, 
patent  leather  shoes. 

Doctor,  I  want  you  to  note  the  various  other  pictures  with  this  6-inch 
shoe  business  being  graphically  brought  out  by  the  photographers 
and  the  author  of  this  publication,  and  I  ask  you.  Doctor,  is  it  a  fair 
statement  to  say  that  these  are  pictures- — these  pictures  are  put  therein 
for  the  purpose  of  exciting  people  to  take  part  in  the  fetish  that  is 
known  as  the  high-heel  fetish?     Is  that  a  fair  statement? 

Dr.  Henry.  That  could  be  true.  Such  heels  are  sexually  exciting, 
but  they  are  also  part  of  a  picture,  any  part  of  which  or  all  of  which 
is  sexually  exciting. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  The  whole  picture  you  consider  sexually  exciting? 

Dr.  Henry.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  There  are  a  number  of  things  in  the  picture  besides 
the  fetish  we  are  particularly  concerned  with  here  that  you  find  sex- 
ually exciting? 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  On  page  T  of  this  publication  I  direct  your  attention 
specifically  to  a  series  of  photographs  called,  "New  Specially  Posed," 
in  which  it  says  there  are  44 — the  heading  says  there  are  44  different 
tound-and-gagged  photos,  8  being  spanked,  offered  to  you  at  40  cents 
apiece.  It  also  mentions  the  fact  that  there  are  three  other  different 
types  of  spanking  photographs  at  40  cents  apiece,  and  the  owner  of 
this  organization  says  he  also  offers  71  different  high-heel  and  lingerie 
photos  of  models  wearing  6-inch  high-heel  shoes,  bras,  and  panties,  at 
25  cents. 

Would  you  look  at  those  photographs  and  tell  the  chairman  of  the 
committee  whether  you,  in  your  opinion,  believe  that  is  a  form  of 
bondage,  the  type  of  deviation  wherein  the  people  get  a  sexual  thrill 
or  pleasure  of  being  bound  up  or  binding  somebody  else  up,  and 
inflicting  a  form  of  torture  through  these  ropes  and  chains  that  you 
see  in  all  these  pictures  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  The  answer  to  all  your  questions  is  "Yes." 

Mr.  Gaughan.  I  now  give  you  this  book  as  a  whole.  I  ask  you  to 
go  through  this  booklet.  Doctor,  and  I  ask  you  specifically,  can  you 


see  any  purpose  for  this  publication  other  tlian  the  one  purpose  to 
cause  erotic  stimuli  hj  showing  acts  of  sexual  perversion?  First,  I 
asked  Dr.  Henry  to  leaf  through  the  book,  and  then  asked  him  to  tell 
us,  after  perusing  the  contents  of  this  book,  to  tell  us  whether  he  can 
find  any  other  purpose  than  publishing  such  a  booklet  for  erotic  stimuli 
for  the  people  who  will  read  it,  and  dwell  upon  it  and  study  it. 

Is  there  any  desirable  reason  other  than  for  erotic  stimuli? 

Dr.  Henry.  No,  the  sole  purpose  is  to  stimulate  people  erotically  in 
an  abnormal  way. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  That  is  the  only  purpose  of  this  booklet,  in  your 
expert  opinion,  Doctor? 

Dr.  Henry.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Doctor,  I  ask  you,  could  children  be  sexually  per- 
verted by  looking  at,  by  studying,  and  by  dwelling  upon  photos  of  this 
nature  and  the  contents  of  this  book  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Doctor,  is  it  a  very  unwholesome  influence, 
this  sort  of  thing  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  It  is. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  In  your  opinion  the  increase  in  sex  crimes, 
deviations  that  we  are  having — ^does  that  increase  result  in  part  at  least 
from  the  reading  and  looking  at  magazines  and  pictures  of  this  kind 
by  children  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  T  would  think  that  was  an  important  factor  in  the 

Chairman  Kefauaer.  You  think  it  is  an  important  factor  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes. 

Mr.  Gaugijan.  Doctor,  would  violence  and  murder  be  a  natural 
outgrowth  of  such  pervei'sions  that  we  have  discussed  here  this  morn- 
ing with  you  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  It  might  be. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  mean  this  bondage  and  whipping,  and 
things  of  that  sort  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Would  you  say  it  is  a  fair  statement,  that  suicide, 
murder,  and  psychosis  is  the  end  result  of  this  type  of  trash? 

Dr.  Henry.  In  some  instances :  yes. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Doctor,  I  show  you  some  clippings  mounted  on  a 
board  from  the  Miami  Daily  Xews,  dated  Tuesday,  August  31,  1954; 
the  contents  of  these  articles.  Doctor,  specifically  note  the  fact  that  one 
17-year-old  boy,  Kenneth  Grimm,  was  found  hanging  in  an  inverted 
position  from  a  stick  or  board  suspended  between  the  forks  of  two 
trees,  and  trussed  up  in  a  fashion  whereby  his  legs  and  arms  are  tied 
behind  him,  and  a  rope  is  thrown  around  his  neck  so  that  he  strangles 
himself.  He  strangles  himself  by  the  position  in  which  he  has  been 
forced.  Doctor,  I  ask  you  is  it  your  opinion,  from  perusing  this  article, 
from  looking  at  the  picture,  would  you  say  that  this  is  the  end  result 
of  a  sex  crime  ?  Does  this  impress  you  as  the  type  of  thing  that  can 
happen  as  the  result  of  bondage — this  fetish  we  have  been  discussing 
this  morning  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes ;  it  is  an  end  result,  a  kind  of  result. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  the  picture  and  plaque  be  made  part  of 
the  record. 


Mr.  Gaughan.  "Gables  boy  found  hanged.  Weird  death  baffles 
cops."     It  also  states  "Father  discovers  body  in  trees." 

I  would  like  to  announce  at  this  ])oint,  the  father  of  this  boy  is  with 
us  this  morning,  and  has  been  so  kind  as  to  consent  to  testify  following 
Dr.  Henry's  testimony. 

Chairman  Kefauver,  All  right. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Doctor,  do  you  have  any  further  comment  that  you 
would  like  to  make  on  the  subject  that  we  have  been  discussing  here — 
the  subject  under  examination — and  do  you  have  any  recommendation?-, 
that  you,  as  an  expert,  a  nationally  renowned  expert  in  the  field,  would 
like  to  make  to  the  subconmiittee  ^ 

Dr.  Hekry.  I  think  I  should  clarify  this  sex  problem  a  little  bit  so 
that  innocent  people  would  not  be  involved  in  it. 

For  instance,  there  is  a  tendency  to  associate  such  acts  of  violence 
with  a  homosexual — what  is  called  the  homosexual.  The  facts  are 
that  the  homosexual  is  no  more  prone  to  violence  than  the  heterosexual 
or  the  normal.  If  we  were  to  divide  humans  roughly  into  four  groups, 
we  would  call  them  heterosexual,  biosexual,  homosexual,  and  Narcis- 
sistic, and  the  groups  that  we  have  been  talking  about  this  morning 
belong  primarily  to  the  Xarcissistic,  more  specially  to  people  whom 
we  call  exhibitionists,  or  peeping  individuals.  These  publications 
cater  to  people  who  are  psychosexnally  immature,  emotionally  innna- 
ture,  and  who  get  their  major  satisfaction  out  of  looking  at  such  dis- 
plays. It  has  little  to  do  with  other  fields  of  psychopathology  that  is 
commonly  associated  with  such  acts. 

The  only  other  thing  that  occurs  to  me  is  that  I  firmly  believe  that 
the  majority  of  people  are  so  constituted  and  live  in  environments 
such  that  they  will  grow  up  to  be  reasonably  normal  in  their  sexual 

There  is,  however,  quite  a  large  proportion  of  the  population  who 
are  susceptible  to  training,  training  such  as  may  be  obtained  from  these 
publications,  and  whether  or  not  they  arrive  at  a  point  of  violence  is 
perhaps  an  academic  matter  in  view  of  the  seriousness  of  the  other 
problem  that  no  one  can  tell  ahead  of  time  who  is  going  to  arrive  at 
that  goal  once  they  have  been  exposed  to  these  publications. 

Furthermore,  there  are  all  degrees  of  sadism  and  masochism  which 
enter  into  human  relations,  and  which  seldom  get  into  the  newspapers. 

Chainnan  Kefauver.  Dr.  Henry,  murder — even  crimes  involving 
theft,  beatings,  most  all  kinds  of  crimes,  can,  to  some  extent,  result 
from  maladjustments  which  children  might  get  from  the  kind  of  litera- 
ture and  pictures  and  whatnot  they  see? 

Dr  Henry.  That  is  correct.  A  good  many  of  the  sexually  malad- 
justed are  not  primarily  interested  in  sex  relations,  but  in  the  thrill 
or  the  danger  which  is  associated  wnth  the  sexual  act. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  In  other  words,  these  pictures,  these  bondage 
pictures  and  things  of  that  sort  are  important  in  this  matter,  too  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  They  are  important. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Will  one  of  you  show  this  gargoyle  thing,  478 
Madison  Avenue,  to  Dr.  Henry  ? 

Is  tliat  typical  of  the  bondage  pictui'es  you  were  talking  about  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes.  There  is  more  of  the  whipping  in  this.  You  can 
see  the  Avhip  in  several  of  the  pictures.  Whipping  means  just  what  it 
says.     They  actually  whip  these  people,  sometimes  until  they  bleed. 


There  are  individuals  who  are  so  impelled  to  abuse  others  that  they 
will  keep  on  until  they  kill  them. 

Chairman  Kefaua^r.  Until  they  kill  them  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  think  there  are  places  in  that  picture  that 
will  show  bondage  pictures. 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  If  that  was  sent  through  the  mail,  I  am  sure 
the  inspectors  would  stop  that. 

Dr.  Henry.  Sometimes  the  greatest  thrill  is  experienced  at  the  time 
that  somebody  is  dying. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Bv  the  person  dving  or  the  person  causins:  the 
death?  '  ^      ^  1 

Dr.  Henry.  The  person  causing  the  death.  There  are  also  people 
who  get  their  greatest  thrill  by  being  severely  beaten. 

Chairman  Kefauater.  You  mean  being  the  recipients  of  the  beating? 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Doctor,  you  saw  how  these  pictures  that  Mr. 
Roth  had — you  heard  him  express  his  expert  opinion  based  upon  many 
years  in  the  business.  What  did  you  think  of  that?  What  do  you 
think  of  his  philosophy  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  I  don't  agree  with  it  at  all. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  think  this  stuff  he  is  sending  out,  these 
pamphlets  that  you  saw  here,  are  a  bad  influence  and  degrading  to  even 
grownups,  let  alone  young  people ''( 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes.  I  think  there  is  a  confusion  between  children  and 
adolescence  in  a  good  deal  of  the  testimony.  When  they  use  the  word 
"children"  they  often  mean  "adolescents,"  and  everyone  knows  that  the 
adolescent  is  most  sexually  excitable,  and  has  the  least  legitimate  op- 
l)ortunity  to  find  an  outlet  for  that  sexual  excitability.  As  a  result  of 
that  they  find  every  conceivable  means  of  finding  an  outlet,  including 
what  was  shown  this  morning. 

It  is  an  error  also  to  assume  that  if  you  sell  something  to  an  adult 
that  it  doesn't  get  to  an  adolescent.  A  great  many  of  these  so-called 
adults  are  really  still  adolescents,  and  feel  most  at  home  with  actual 

More  than  that,  some  of  them  are  primarily  interested  in  introducing 
adolescents  into  abnormal  practices. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  So  that  his  idea  that  the  effect  of  this  kind  of 
stuff  on  adults  might  be  stimulating  and  what  not,  but  it  would  not 
have  any  effect  upon  adolescents  is  just  without  medical  foundation  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  I  would  think  it  would  be  just  the  opposite.  It  would 
be  more  exciting  to  the  adolescent. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  An.ything  else? 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Doctor,  I  might  ask  you,  as  the  father  of  five  chil- 
dren, and  as  many  parents  around  the  Nation  have  wondered  from 
time  to  time,  if  we  have  read  about  the  senseless  killing  by  teen- 
agers during  these  past  few  years,  would  you  say  it  is  a  fair  state- 
ment that  many  of  these  killings  are  the  direct  result  of  some 
sort  of  an  erotic  stimuli  that  has  been  given  to  these  teen-agers,  these 
children,  which  result  in  their  taking  part  in  the  gang  warfare  and 
death  and  violence  and  torture,  and  so  on  ? 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes ;  I  would  expect  that  entered  into  a  large  propor- 
tion of  such  killings. 


Mr.  Gaughan.   a  lar^je  proportion? 

Dr.  Henry.  Yes.  Tliat  is  related  to  tlie  fundamental  principle 
that  a  person  who  eno;ao:es  in  such  killings  is  an  insecure  person,  and 
a  g:reat  deal  of  his  insecurity  comes  from  the  fact  that  he  is  poorly 
adjusted,  usually,  as  a  male.  In  order  to  bolster  up  his  e*i;o,  he  has 
to  do  something  bold  to  give  him  the  feeling  that  he  is  a  man.  If, 
in  addition,  he  has  been  trained  to  sadistic  ways  of  bolstering  his  ego,, 
so  much  the  worse. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  That  is  all  I  have. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Dr.  Henry,  we  appreciate  very  much  your 
testimony,  and  I  want  to  say  while,  as  just  a  layman,  and  I  am  sure 
I  might  speak  for  the  press  in  this  regard,  too,  we  appreciate  the 
fact  that  you  are  one  of  the  most  eminent  and  highly  thought  of, 
most  experienced  psychiatrist  in  the  whole  United  States,  or  the 
world,  and  you  have  spoken  to  us  in  such  plain  language  that  we  can 
all  understand.     It  was  a  little  bit  unusual. 

Thank  you  very  much,  sir. 

Dr.  Henry.  Well,  I  have  had  the  opinion,  after  many  years  of 
experience,  that  if  you  can't  tell  something  in  plain  English,  you 
don't  understand  it  yourself. 

Chairman  Kefauver.    We  appreciate  having  you  with  us. 

Mr.  Xorman  Thomas,  we  will  be  glad  if  you  will  come  down. 


Mr.  Thomas,  yesterday  I  was  advised  that  you  had  written  the 
subcommittee  a  letter  expressing  your  interest  in  the  hearing,  and 
the  staff  of  the  subcommittee  contacted  you  and  asked  if  you  were 
willing  to  come  down  and  give  your  views  and  ideas  to  the  subcom- 

I  am  not  familiar  with  your  various  points  of  view,  but  you  are 
an  eminent  and  great  American,  for  whom  the  American  people  of 
all  political  faiths  have  esteem  and  respect. 

Mr.  Thomas.  Especially  since  I  quit  running  for  office. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  So  we  are  honored  that  you  have  taken  out 
time  to  come  and  give  us  the  benefit  of  your  counsel,  and  through 
this  subcommittee,  speak  to  the  American  people  on  anything  you  have 
to  say  about  the  problem  of  juvenile  delinquency  or  pornography, 
which  we  are  considering  here. 

Senator  Danger  is  an  old  friend  of  yours.  I  know  he  has  some- 
thing to  say  at  this  time. 

Senator  Danger.  I  can  only  say  that  I  do  not  know  any  man  in  this 
country  whom  I  respect  more  highly. 

Mr.  Thomas.  I  used  to  be  willing  to  compromise  for  more  votes  and 
less  respect. 

Senator  Danger.  We  are  very  happy  that  you  wrote  the  subcom- 
mittee, and  we  are  happy  you  are  here. 

Mr.  Thomas.  Thank  you  very  much. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Tell  us  anything  you  want  to. 

Mr.  Thomas,  While  I  appreciate  an  opportunity  to  come,  I  am  a 
little  embarrassed,  because,  at  short  notice,  I  had  no  expectation  of 
appearing  before  the  committee.  I  wrote  the  letter  on  only  one  sub- 
ject and  that  subject  was  the  only  subject  on  which  I  have  any  right 
to  speak. 


I  am  not,  like  many  of  your  witnesses,  an  expert  as  a  psychiatrist 
or  as  a  teacher,  or  someone  who  has  come  in  close  contact  with  these 
problems.  But  I  have,  for  a  good  deal  of  my  life,  spent  a  good  deal  of 
my  time  on  civil-lib-erties  issues,  and  I  am  a  pretty  stanch  supporter 
of  the  first  amendment,  which  I  think  has  suffered  some  damage  by 
Congress  and  certain  other  agencies  of  Government. 

I  am,  however,  not  at  all  impressed  by  the  degree  to  which  defend- 
ers of  certain  kinds  of  comic  books,  and  even  of  pornogTaphy,  pure  and 
simple,  want  to  press  the  first  amendment.  I  do  not  think  the  first 
amendment  gives  any  guaranty  to  men  to  seduce  the  innocent  and  to 
exploit  the  kind  of  unformed  mind  and  unformed  emotions  of  chil- 
dren and  adolescents. 

I  think  there  is  a  great  deal  of  dangerous  nonsense  in  this  appeal 
to  the  first  amendment  and  to  freedom  of  the  press  when  one  is  dealing 
with  the  kind  of  thing  which  I  have  just  heard  testimony  about  from 
the  preceding  witness. 

I  do  not  believe  that  in  order  to  protect  the  fundamental  liberties 
of  the  press  we  have  to  turn  our  children,  who  are,  in  a  sense,  the  ward 
of  all  our  society,  over  to  the  kind  of  visual  exploitation  of  base  emo- 
tion, and  the  arousal  of  base  emotion  to  which,  of  course,  this  litera- 
ture, this  pornographic  literature,  these  films  and  cards  and  all  the 
rest  are  directed. 

I  understand  that  the  evil  has  grown  greatly.  A  great  many  years 
ago  I  was  a  secretary  of  a  local  school  board.  It  was  here  in  East 
Harlem,  in  Manhattan,  and  I  know  we  had  a  great  deal  of  trouble 
with  deliberate  circulation  for  money  of  pornographic  postal  cards 
in  those  days. 

The  situation  has  become  much  worse,  I  understand.  It  is  an  out- 
rage to  freedom  to  say  there  is  any  guaranty  of  freedom  for  this  kind 
of  thing. 

Parents  have  the  first  responsibility,  certainly,  for  protecting  their 
children,  but  even  the  most  careful  parent  cannot  protect  his  children 
against  the  floods  of  certain  kinds  of  comic  books  and  certain  kinds 
of  pornographic  literature  now  circulated;  and  there  are  a  good  many 
parents  who  have  neither  the  knowledge  or  capacity  to  protect  them, 
and  society  has  to  step  in. 

I  do  not  believe  that  society  can  advantageously,  or  perhaps  consti- 
tutionally in  the  United  States,  step  in  by  prepublication  censorship. 
That,  I  think  is  open  to  doubt  in  the  light  of  history  as  a  method  of 
dealing  with  any  of  these  problems. 

I  will  be  perfectly  frank  and  express  considerable  doubt  of  the  use- 
fulness of  the  voluntary  censorship  set  up  by  the  comic  book  pub- 

There  is  a  certain  danger  in  giving  a  parent's  seal  of  approval  to 
rather  bad  stuff,  even  if  it  is  within  the  code,  as  if  it  had  authoritative 

I  should  go  along  with  the  people  who  are  opposed  to  censorship. 
But  it  seems  to  me  that  it  ought  to  be  possible  to  find  ways  of  out- 
right prohibition  of  the  circulation,  by  any  device  whatever,  of  the 
kind  of  pornographic  stuff  you  have  been  discussing  and  the  kind  of 
comic  books  that  Dr.  Wertham  discussed. 

I  suppose  there  are  difficulties  of  definition,  but  I  think  the  job  can 
be  done.    I  am  not  at  all  impressed  by  some  of  the  arguments  I  have 


heard  by  spokesmen  for  the  industry,  and  from  honest  defenders 
of  civil  liberty  who,  I  think,  in  this  case  are  misguided. 

I  am  not  impressed  by  the  kinds  of  arguments  I  hear.  I  am  not  at 
all  impressed  with  the  notion  that  you  should  deal  with  pornography 
and  a  certain  type  of  comic  book  as  you  might  deal  with  the  discussion 
of  ideals  which  would  lead  to  sedition.  You  are  dealing  with  an 
entirely  different  realm  of  affairs. 

An  idea,  even  a  wrong  idea,  a  bad  idea  in  economics,  in  politics, 
and  so  on,  can  be  met  in  the  market  place  by  a  true  idea,  and  history,  at 
least  in  America,  bears  out  this  statement— that,  on  the  whole,  a  true 
idea  wins  a  victory.  I  haven't  won  often  enough  to  say  it  always 
does,  but  on  the  whole,  I  believe  that  error  in  this  field  is  better  counter- 
acted by  truth,  than  when  error  goes  out— rather,  than  when  truth 
calls  on  a  policeman's  club  in  the  matter. 

The  appeal  that  is  then  suggested  by  an  idea  is  wholly  different 
from  the  kind  of  thing  about  which  you  have  just  had  testimony.  To 
the  unformed  life  of  a  child,  the  perversion  of  what,  in  itself,  is  a  life- 
giving  sexual  instinct  is  a  terrible  thing  for  society,  and  does  not  fall 
in  the  class  of  ideas  which  was  defended  as  able  to  win  their  own 

I  am  not  at  all  impressed  by  the  argument  that  I  have  heard  that 
it  is  time  to  wait  until  you  have  proved  clear  and  immediate  danger 
by  absolute  and  precise  proof  that  a  particular  crime  or  a  particular 
bit  of  outrageous  juvenile  delinquency  has  been  caused  by  a  par- 
ticular comic  book  or  pornographic  publication.    This  is  absurd. 

There  is  a  good  deal  of  talk  to  the  effect  that  those  of  us  who 
believe  that  something  has  to  be  done  are  alleging  that  all  juvenile 
delinquency  is  due  to  these  publications.  I  never  hear  that  allega- 
tion made  "by  anyone  except  by  people  who  want  to  knock  down  a 
strawman.  I  don't  think  that  is  the  main  cause  of  juvenile  delin- 
quency, but  so  serious  is  this  delinquency,  everything  is  dangerous. 

What  we  are  concerned  with  is  not  primarily,  or  chiefly,  as  I  see 
it,  the  stopping  of  particular  crimes  that  reach  police  court.  It  is 
the  whole  effect  upon  the  minds  of  the  young  who  are  going  to  sliape 
the  future,  and  that  is  not  subject  to  these  precise  tests  of  clear  and 
immediate  danger  that  have  been  alleged. 

I  have  heard  some  of  the  psychiatric  testimony — not  here,  but 
elsewhere — which  apologizes  for  this.  I  have  not  been  too  much 
impressed.  But  I  do  believe  there  is  immense  value  in  modern  psy- 
chiatry and  in  its  research.  I  doubt  if  right  and  wrong  is  determined 
solely  by  psychiatric  majorities  one  way  or  another,  and  I  doubt  if 
the  commonsense  of  the  communities  is  altogether  gainsaid  by  the 
testimony  of  men  who  tell  me,  as  one  man  did  tell  me,  that  the  most 
horrible  comics,  exalting  sadism  and  teaching  crime,  have  no  effect 
at  all.    That  I  just  do  not  believe. 

I  would  like  awfully  well,  as  a  rule,  to  know  whether  the  men  who 
thus  testified  have  gotten  any  fees  from  any  of  the  self-interested 
parties.  They  have  a  right  to  get  such  fees.  Everybody  has  a  right 
to  hire  help,  but  I  confess,  without  wishing  to  get  into  any  row  with 
any  tobacco  companies,  that  I  would  not  be  as  much  impressed  by 
a  doctor  who  is  hired  by  a  great  tobacco  company  to  prove  there 
was  no  danger  of  lung  cancer  as  I  would  by  a  more  disinterested 

65263—55 15 


I  am  very  much  interested  to  know  who  pays  what  in  the  matter 
of  some  of  this  testimony.  .        ■,■ 

I  have  been  very  much  impressed,  and  depressed,  to  listen  to  pretty 
good  peo])le  who  argue  very  hotly,  mostly  against  censorship,  to 
which  I  also  am  opposed,  but  ap])arently  in  some  cases  agamst  any 
kind  of  legislative  action. 

They  allege  one  of  two  things.  They  have  to.  Either  that  this— 
after  all,  these  horror  prints  do  not  do  any  harm,  or  else  that  you 
cannot  help  it  that  they  don't  do  enough  harm  to  run  a  certain  risk. 

AVhat  troubles  me  is  that  in  almost  every  case  you  get  a  confusion 
of  two  ideas.  I  have  here  what  was  given  me.  I  think  it  is  called 
"Facts  Kit."  Tt  was  o;iven  to  me  by  the  Comic  Book  Publishers 
Association.  Right  through  their  literature  there  runs  confusion 
of  ideas.  On  the  one  hand  they  boast  they  are  now  pure,  having  set 
up  their  own  authority ;  and  on'the  other  hand  they  argue  they  didn't 
need  to,  because  it  did  no  harm,  that  psychiatrists  said  what  they  were 
doing  was  all  right. 

They  cannot  have  it  both  ways ;  in  this  connection,  I  am  very  skepti- 
cal of  what  is  revealed  by  the  confusion. 

I  am  also  extraordinarily  unsympathetic  with  a  notion  that  our 
society  is  so  dull  and  so  bound  by  rather  extreme  logic,  that  there 
is  no  way  to  prevent  this  horror  literature,  these  horror  pictures, 
with  all  their  etfect,  which  may  not  be  extended  to  censorship  or 
prohibition  of  Mother  Goose,  or  Shakespeare,  or,  in  another  field, 
"Crime  and  Punishment." 

I  imagine  that  some  of  the  artists  that  you  have  been  discussing 
could  make  Mother  Goose  a  pretty  bad  business  with  certain  kinds 
of  drawings.  But  I  think  it  is  all  nonsense  to  argue  that  because 
there  is  silence  in  Jack  the  Giant  Killer,  and  because  one  of  the 
heroes  of  the  Mother  Goose  rhyme  was  going  to  throw  a  man  down- 
stairs for  not  saying  his  prayers,  that  therefore  there  is  no  way  of 
restricting  the  horror  and  pornographic  literature  that  comes  flood- 
ing out  to  the  immense  profit  of  the  publishers,  without  prohibiting 
Mother  Goose,  or  something  of  the  sort. 

I  think  the  common  sense  American  knows  the  difference.  I  think 
the  difference  could  be  written  into  laws  that  could  pass  the  test  of 
constitutionality.  I  am  not  a  psychiatrist  or  a  lawyer  and  cannot  help 
you  in  framing  those  laws.  I  think  the  job  could  be  done.  I  think 
it  is  defeatist  to  say  that  you  cannot  do  it. 

I  think,  moreover,  that  the  interpretation  of  law  depends  in  part, 
as  we  know,  by  the  development  of  public  opinion.  The  Chief  Justice 
of  the  United"  States,  himself,  held  that  changes  in  public  opinion,  in 
the  way  we  think  about  things,  made  the  doctrine  of  Separate  but 
EoumI  not  tenable  now. 

1  think  in  these  tunes,  with  this  terrible  increase  of  juvenile  delin- 
quency, with  this  immensely  profitably  flood  of  pornography,  using 
techniques  never  before  available  to  the  seducers  of  the  innocent,  I 
think  it  is  nonsense  to  say  that  we  are  so  bound  by  a  very  extreme  inter- 
pretation of  the  freedom  of  the  press  that  we  cannot  act. 

We  have  acted  in  other  cases,  as  I  know.  I  think  the  post  office,  in 
some  cases,  has  been  given  too  much  power  not  to  accept  for  mailing 
certain  things — religious  books  and  political  books — that  are  said  to 
involve  dissension.  If  that  is  constitutional,  certainly  the  kind  of 
legislation  that  I  think  you  could  shape  would  be  constitutional. 



The  verv  etfort  is  itself  educational.  It  will  open  the  eyes  of  lots 
of  people— parents.  It  will  oive  them  authority  and  help  m  enforcing 
the  law.  . 

I  heard  a  defense  of  this  sort  of  business,  this  pornography,  m  the 
following  terms— that  some  authority,  not  named,  had  said  that  a 
diseased  mind  mioht  be  more  adversely  afi'ected  by  the  mere  presence 
of  a  person  of  the  opposite  sex  than  by  any  of  this  literature.  That  is 
a  most  shocking  argument  to  advance.  We  are  not  talking  about 
already  diseased  minds  so  far  gone  that  they  might  be  rumed  by  that 
which 'is  normal  and  proper  in  life.  We  are  talking  about  people  who 
have  tendencies  that  can  be  led  into  disease.  That  is  a  very  different 

In  other  words,  gentlemen,  I  apologize  for  a  not  too  carefully  worked 
out  speech.  1  did  not  know  I  was  coming  until  I  had  no  time  to  do 
any  writing,  but  I  do  want  to  put  myself  on  record,  just  because  I  have 
so  diligently  tried  to  serve  civil  liberty,  as  believmg  that  it  is  not  only 
possible  for  you  to  frame  legislation  that  will  curb  the  enormous  evils 
without  abridging  any  desirable  liberty ;  but  it  is  necessary,  for  free- 
dom, itself,  is  besmirched,  if  freedom  comes  to  the  tune  of  $500  million 
a  year,  and  society  and  government  is  utterly  powerless. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  thank  you  very  much  for  an  enlightening, 
forcible  statement.  It  will  be  very  helpful  to  our  subcommittee,  and, 
I  am  sure,  to  everyone  who  reads  and  hears  this.  It  was  fine  of  you  to 
write  us  a  letter,  and  we  would  like  to  make  your  letter  part  of  the 

AVhile  we  iunen't  discussed  some  remedies  that  have  been  suggested 
by  you  in  any  detail,  everybody  knows  that  no  citizen  has  been  more 
vigorous  in  the  defense  of  civil  liberties  and  freedom  of  the  press  and 
speech  than  you ;  and  your  concern  about  this  problem  of  pornography 
and  horror  crime  books,  and  how  you  think  it  should  be  dealt  with,  is 
certainly  very  valuable  to  us. 

Mr.  Thomas.  May  I  add  that  I  have  been,  on  a  number  of  occasions, 
a  member  of  a  jury.  I  believe  you  can  trust  the  American  jury  to 
deal  with  nonsense  and  justice.  They  would  act  in  ways  that  would 
not  create  a  danger  of  interference  with  the  true  freedom  of  speech 
or  the  press.  I  know  it  will  take  some  doing,  and  I  don't  altogether 
envy  you  the  task  of  doing  it,  but  I  think  it  can  and  must  be  done. 

Senator  I^^nger.  I  know  of  no  man  who  has  had  more  experience 
in  his  personal  life  than  has  Norman  Thomas.  He  is  a  real  true 
American  citizen,  and  I  am  certainly  proud  he  came  here  and  testified 
before  this  subcommittee.  It  is  a  great  tribute  to  this  subcommittee 
to  have  Norman  Thomas  come  here  and  testify  before  it. 

Mr.  Thomas.  Thank  3^011  very  much.  I  am  not  seeking  any  particu- 
lar applause ;  I  am  terribly  interested  in  it. 

The  first  time  I  found  out  how  serious  it  could  be  was  a  great  many 
years  ago,  and  I  think  it  has  grown  worse. 

Chairman  Kefafver.  Thank  you  very  much. 

Mr.  Thomas.  Thank  you. 


(The  letter  dated  May  23,  1955,  from  Norman  Thomas  and  ad- 
dressed to  Senator  Kefauver  is  as  follows:) 

New  York,  N.  Y.,  May  23,  1955. 
Hon.  BSTES  Kefauver, 

Senate  Office  Building,  Washington  25,  D.  C. 
Dear  Senator  KEFAmnER :   Like  every  good  citizen,  I  am  deeply  concerned  for 
the  success  of  tlae  hearings  you  are  holding  concerning  juvenile  delinquency  and 
related  matters  like  the  effect  of  so-called  comic  books  on  the  young. 

I  am  no  expert  at  all  in  the  field  in  which  you  are  making  inquiry.  I  hare, 
however,  long  been  active  in  behalf  of  civil  liberties  and  I  want  to  put  on  rec- 
ord with  you  my  belief — in  contrast  to  some  champions  of  civil  liberties — that 
government  has"  not  only  a  right  but  a  duty  to  consider  legislative  controls  of 
the  publication  and  circulation  of  comic  books  in  order  to  prevent  the  "seduc- 
tion of  the  innocent"  by  the  terrible  mixture  of  sex  sensationalism,  if  not  out- 
right pornography,  sadism,  education  in  crime,  and  sheer  horror  to  which  cer- 
tain comic  books  have  treated  us. 

It  is,  of  course,  fantastic  to  argue  in  behalf  of  any  doctrine  of  freedom  of 
speech  or  the  press,  that  men  have  an  inalienable  right  to  corrupt  the  young 
and  to  make  themselves  rich  in  the  process.  The  argument  for  a  do-nothing 
policy  by  the  Federal  Government  can  only  be  supported  on  one  or  both  of  two 
lines.  First,  that  these  vicious  comic  books  do  no  real  harm ;  and,  second,  that 
Government  is  so  clumsy  an  instrument  that  it  can  find  no  way  to  protect  chil- 
dren without  running  the  risk  of  assuming  dictatorial  powers  over  the  press. 
I  think  both  arguments  are  erroneous. 

The  case  against  the  horror  comics  is  not  merely  or  chiefly  the  degree  they  may 
contribute  to  juvenile  delinquency.  It  is  the  effect  of  them  on  the  minds  of  those 
for  whose  education  as  good  citizens  society  has  responsibility.  I  am  aware  that 
supposedly  expert  psychological  and  psychiatric  testimony  has  been  brought 
forward  to  support  the  contention  that  these  comics  have  no  bad  effect.  This 
is  a  position  that  cannot  be  taken  logically  unless  one  is  willing  to  advance  the 
extraordinary  proposition  that  there  is  no  case  at  all  for  moral  education  or 
the  inculcating  of  a  lot  of  good  literature.  It  is  the  experience  of  the  race  that 
children's  minds  are  very  impressionable  for  good  or  evil,  particularly  by  the 
picture  method  which  makes  so  strong  an  appeal  to  them.  Good  and  evil  are  not 
determined  by  majority  votes  of  psychiatrists  and  I  should  question  the  value 
of  the  vote  of  the  psychiatrist  who  appears  or  ever  has  appeared  for  a  fee  paid 
by  the  publishers  of  comic  books.  They  have  a  right  to  hire  psychiatrists  and 
psychiatrists  have  a  right  to  be  hired.  But  I  would  not  give  full  weight  to  the 
evidence  ofl'ered  under  these  circumstances  any  more  than  I  should  give  full 
weight  to  the  testimony  of  a  doctor  on  cancer  who  was  in  the  employ  of  one 
of  the  great  tobacco  companies.  I  think  the  preponderance  of  evidence  is 
entirely  on  the  side  of  those  who  believe  that  these  books  are  a  contributory, 
though  bv  no  means  the  sole  cause  of  juvenile  delinquency. 

I  do  not,  however,  accept  as  valid  the  attempt  of  certain  advocates  of  civil 
liberty  to  claim  that  the  Government  can  only  interfere  if  at  all  on  the  basis 
of  proof  of  clear  and  immediate  danger  of  specific  contribution  of  a  comic 
book  to  overt  juvenile  delinquency.  The  right  of  free  speech  on  political  and 
economic  matters  up  to  a  point  of  clear  and  immediate  danger  is  one  thing. 
The  right  of  free  speech  or  free  press  to  corrupt  the  young  is  another. 

The  principal  argument  of  advocates  of  civil  liberties  has  been  directed  against 
censorship.  I  myself  would  doubt  the  efficacy  or  possibly  the  constitutionality 
of  a  law  providing  for  a  governmental  precensorship  of  comic  books.  I  am  not 
favorably  impressed  by  the  private  censorship  suddenly  set  up  by  the  comic  book 
publishers  here  in  New  York.  For  one  thing,  the  seal  of  approval  carries  too 
much  weight  in  the  mind  of  the  young  for  inferior  stuff.  I  should,  however, 
think  it  possible  to  deal  fairly  well  with  the  evil  by  invoking  the  Government's 
right  to  protect  children  by  setting  up  in  law  a  prohibition  of  the  circulation  of 
horror  comics,  generally  defined  in  the  law,  among  children.  The  enforcement 
of  the  law,  as  now  of  law  against  pornography,  should  be  left  to  district  attorneys 
and  juries.  It  should  be  hoiked  the  district  attorneys  would  act  more  vigilantly 
than  sometimes  in  the  case  of  pornographic  postal  cards  circulated  among  school 
children.  It  is  also,  I  think,  important  in  any  effort  either  to  turn  on  the 
light  for  arousing  public  opinion  or  to  help  in  the  enforcement  of  law  that  each 
comic  book  should  bear  the  name  of  the  responsible  publisher,  and  author  or 


I  am  aware  that  the  wording  of  a  definition  of  the  kind  of  horror  comics  the 
sale  and  circulation  of  which  to  children  should  be  prohibited  is  not  easy.  But 
I  refuse  to  believe  that  it  is  impossible  to  make  such  a  definition  which  will  not 
apply  to  the  proper  publication  and  circulation  of  serious  books  like  Crime  and 
Punishment,  for  instance.  I  do  not  believe  that  we  cannot  pass  a  law  dealing 
with  comic  books  that  will  not  apply  to  Shakespeare  and  Mother  Goose.  I  am 
rather  irritated  by  the  argument  to  the  contrary. 

In  this  whole  field  it  is  important  to  distinguish  between  the  kind  of  truth 
in  religious,  economic,  and  social  theories  which  can  make  its  own  way  in  the 
market  place  of  ideas  and  the  kind  of  decency  which  can  make  its  own  way 
in  the  minds  of  children  against  these  horror  books.  Pornography  and  sadism 
bypass  the  area  of  intellectual  discussion  or  conflict.  This  is  particularly  true 
when  one  is  dealing  with  the  impressionable  minds  of  children.  Milton's  argu- 
ment against  censorship  was  never  meant  by  him  to  operate  in  this  field  of 
pornography  and  sadism.  One  does  not  need  to  be  a  psychiatrist  to  recognize 
the  force  of  the  difference. 

I  am  addressing  this  to  you  personally  because  you  are  in  charge  of  the  in- 
vestigation but  I  should  be  very  willing  to  have  it  put  on  the  record  if  you  are 
recording  written  statements  as  well  as  oral. 
Sincerely  yours, 

Norman  Thomas. 

Chairman  Kefau\t.r.  We  will  stand  in  recess  until  15'  minutes  to  2. 
(Whereupon,  at  12 :  35  p.  m.,  the  hearing  was  recessed  until  1 :  45 


Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Clarence  Grimm. 
Mr.  Grimm,  will  you  come  around,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Grimm,  will  you  solemnly  swear  the  testimony  you  will  give 
this  subcommittee  will  be  the  whole  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 
Mr.  Grimm.  Yes. 


Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Grimm,  before  counsel,  Mr.  Gaughan, 
asks  you  some  questions,  I  want  you  to  say  that  as  chairman  of  this 
subcommittee  I  know  the  embarrassment  and  the  distaste  that  you 
have  in  coming  here  to  talk  again,  or  to  have  anything  to  say  about 
the  tragic  happening  to  your  son  on  August  20  of  last  year.  I  know 
that  you  would  rather  not  say  anything  about  it;  however,  in  the 
judgment  of  this  subcommittee  your  testimony  may  be  of  some  benefit 
in  bringing  to  the  attention  of  the  people  and  to  law  enforcement 
agencies  and  to  legislative  bodies  the  kind  of  situation  that  might  be 
of  some  help  in  preventing  some  other  father's  son  from  having  a  sim- 
ilar tragic  experience. 

It  is  on  that  basis  that  we  have  asked  you  to  come  today  to  testify. 
We  appreciate  your  cooperation.  We  know  that  you  would  like  to 
do  anything  you  could  to  try  to  see  that  the  kind  of  mania  of  wliich  your 
son  was  the  victim  is  removed  from  our  society. 

Vie  know  that  your  son  was  an  outstanding  young  man,  but  we 
feel  that  by  your  telling  us  about  it,  it  may  enable  us  to  help  get  at 
the  problem.    So,  we  do  a])preciate  your  cooperation. 

Mr.  Gaughan,  you  may  proceed. 

Mr.  Gaughax.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  at  the  outset  to  state 
that  in  our  investigations  of  this  terrible  tragedy,  I  myself  was 
singularly  impressed  by  the  type  of  young  man  tliat  met  this  tragic 
end.  Pie  was  an  Eagle  Scout  of  Coral  Gables,  Fla. ;  a  B-plus  student 
in  his  school  work,  and  a  model  young  man  in  every  sense  of  the  word. 


So,  Mr.  Grimm,  for  the  record,  would  you  please  state  your  name, 
your  full  name?  . 

Mr.  Grimm.  My  name  is  Clarence  Grnnm. 

Mr.  GAUGHAN.'And  your  address,  sir? 

Mr.  Grimm.  5028  Maggiore,  Coral  Gables,  Fla. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  How  are  you  employed,  Mr.  Grimm  ? 

Mr.  Grimm.  I  am  self-employed.    I  am  an  electrical  contractor. 

Mr  Gaughan.  Mr.  Grimm,  are  you  acquainted  with  the  purposes  of 
this  investigation,  of  this  subcommittee,  into  juvenile  delinquency  and 
pornography,  specifically,  at  this  hearing? 

Mr.  Grimm.  Yes,  sir.  .  i       ,  i  -u-i. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Mr.  Grimm,  I  am  going  to  hand  you  an  exhibit 
which  has  already  been  introduced  into  evidence.  With  your  permis- 
sion I  will  come  down  closer  to  you. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Yes,  come  down  closer  and  get  the  essential 

points  over.  ,.     ,  •      •         j-  .1 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Sir,  I  hand  you  a  group  of  clippings  from  the 
Miami  Daily  News,  of  Tuesday  evening,  August  31,  1954,  and  also 
some  from  the  same  paper  for  August  21,  1954  [handing  to  Mr. 
Grimm] . 

Sir,  can  you  identify  those  clippings? 

Mr.  Grimm.  Yes,  sir;  I  can. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  With  what  are  they  concerned  ? 

Mr.  Grmm.  They  are  concerned  with  the  tragic  death  of  my  son. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Can  you,  Mr.  Grimm,  tell  the  subcommittee  how 
it  w^as  that  your  boy  met  his  sudden  end  on  the  evening  of  August  20, 
1954 ;  can  you  tell  us  specifically  ?  I  realize  it  is  an  unsolved  murder 
and  that  the  details  are— you  are  as  mystified  as  the  police  authorities 
l3y  it— but  tell  us  what  you  know  about  it,  starting  with  what  occurred 
that  evening  when  you  came  home  to  dinner  and  saw  your  boy  for 
the  last  time.  -^     m^ 

Mr.  Grimm.  Well,  I  don't  know  how  to  go  about  telling  it.  ihese 
articles  are  self -explanatory. 

We  missed  him  in  the  evening.  He  had  worked  all  day  tor  me.  He 
got  home  from  his  work  about  5  o'clock  and  had  come  home  dirty 
and  tired,  in  his  work  clothes. 

He  turned  on  the  water  faucet  to  fill  the  tub  with  water,  then  went 
out  in  the  yard  and  fired  off  a  couple  of  firecrackers  which  he  had 
brought  back  from  Georgia.    He  had  been  to  a  summer  camp. 

He  attracted  his  mother's  attention  to  it.  She  called  out  to  him 
to  come  in  and  shut  the  water  off. 

He  was  away  all  evening,  which  is  unusual.  He  never  left  the  house 
without  telling  us.  He  had  no  errand  that  we  knew  of.  In  fact, 
he  had  planned  to  go  to  a  civil  defense  meeting  that  evening,  where 
he  was  a  member  of  the  Ground  Observation  Corps. 

I  found  him  the  next  morning  in  a  very  grotesque,  weird  situation 
that  I  have  never  been  able  to  cope  with  or  understand  yet. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Would  you,  sir,  for  the  subcommittee,  tell  us  how 
your  son  was  trussed  up, 'and  the  position  in  which  you  found  him 
when  you  found  his  body  on  the  morning  of  August  21  ? 

Mr.  Grimm.  He  was  trussed  up  in  a  very  unnatural  position.  It 
looked  like  it  had  been  planned  in  some  way.  It  wasn't  anything 
that  I  had  ever  seen  before,  or  anybody  else  had  ever  seen  before, 
that  I  know  of. 

Gables  Boy  Found  Hanged, 
Weird  Dl  3th  Baffles  Cops 

rather  Discovers 

Im  Death 

/Miami  Daily  News 

Suspect  Gri) 
In  Grimm  Co^ 


JHongcd  Boy  In  Gables 
|Wos  Sloin,  Police  Soy 


He  wasn't  hung  like  most  people  liano-  themselves  by  the  neck  from 
a  rope  The  fact  that  he  didn't  have  any  clothes  on,  and  he  was  a 
modest  boy,  led  me  innnediatelv  to  believe  that  there  was  some  sex 
angle  to  it,  some  sex  act  in  some  way,  either  with  the  hel])  ot  someone 
else  or  through  retaliation  on  the  part  of  someone  else— 1  don  t  know 
what  it  is.    It  is  still  a  mysteiy  to  me.  .  t^  ■,    at 

Mr  G\uGHAN.  I  show  you  a  picture  from  the  Muimi  Daily  iSews,  a 
sketch  oi  the  boy  [handing  to  Mr.  Grimm].  Would  you  say  that  is 
an  accurate  sketch  of  how  the  boy  was  found  when  you  saw  hira^ 

Mr.  Grimm.  Yes;  very  accurate. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Well,  Mr.  Gaughan,  you  just  describe  the 
picture  for  the  record ;  tell  us  what  it  shows. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  The  picture  at  which  I  am  looking  shows  2  saplings, 
with  forks,  and  a  1-  by  2-inch  board  is  suspended  between  the  2  forks 
of  the  tree.  Hanging  by  his  knees  and,  of  course,  in  an  inverted  posi- 
tion, is  Kenneth  Grimm.  He  is  trussed  up  with  ropes,  tied  around  his 
ankles,  the  same  ropes  reaching  from  his  ankles  to  his  arms,  and  looped 
around  his  neck,  so  that  his  body  is  pulled  back  in  a  very  grotesque- 
looking  position. 

The  caption  underneath  the  picture  reads : 

An  artist's  sketch  shows  how  Kenneth  Grimm,  17,  was  found  trussed  and 
hanging  from  a  wooden  crossbar  between  two  trees  in  bushes  near  his  Coral 
Gables  home  at  502S  Maggiore  Street.  The  boy's  feet  were  bound  by  a  rope, 
and  he  was  hanging  from  his  knees.  The  rope  from  his  feet  encircled  his  neck, 
bending  his  body  in  a  sharp  backward  arc. 

Chairman  Ivefauver.  Let  that  be  entered  into  the  record. 

Senator  Langer.  May  I  see  it,  please? 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Yes,  sir  [handing  to  Senator  Langer]. 

Mr.  Grimm,  do  you  recognize,  sir,  this  booklet  which  I  hand  you, 
entitled,  "Cartoon  and  Model  Parade,"  published  by  Irving  Klaw, 
"the  Pin-Up  King?" 

Mr.  Grimm.  Yes. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Would  you  tell  the  subcommittee  how  you  first  came 
upon  a  copy  of  this  book  ? 

Mr.  Grimm.  Through  a  mutual  friend  who  was  interested  in  the 
case,  why,  he  brought  my  attention  to  an  ad  in  one  of  these  so-called 
girlie  magazines,  which  publicized  this  book. 

It  took  him  quite  a  wliile  to  hnd  the  thing  and  bring  it  to  me,  and 
he  finally  did.    My  son-in-law  sent  off  for  the  catalog. 

As  a  result  of  that,  I  found  very  similar  situations,  or  very  similar 
acts  of  tying  people  up  in  that  book  that  reminded  me  of  my  son's 
case,  and  that  is  one  reason  why  I  got  hot  on  this  angle  at  this  end  of 
it.  I  had  never  come  across  anything  like  that  before,  and  I  was  look- 
ing for  a  clue. 

I  feel  that  there  is  some  connection  in  some  way.  I  don't  know  just 
what  the  connection  is,  indirectly  or  directly,  through  someone  else 
that  studied  this  and  knew  about  it;  I  don't  know  what  happened.  I 
do  feel  that  this  is  the  hottest  thing  that  I  have  gotten  onto  since  the 
boy  died;  I  believe  that,  as  far  as  this  clue  to  the  incident  is  concerned. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Sir,  I  direct  your  attention  specifically  to  page  3 
of  this  publication  showing  a  young  lady  trussed  up,  and  ask  you  to 
look  at  that  picture,  with  her  arms  tied  behind  her  back,  hesr  mouth 
gagged,  the  only  dissimiliarity  is  that  she  is  in  a  sitting  position  here. 


In  other  words,  if  we  were  to  flip  her  backwards,  she  would  be  upside 

Is  that  somewhat  similar  to  the  position,  the  way  the  rope^  were 
arranged  when  you  found  your  boy  ? 

Mr.  Grimm.  I  can't  say  this  is  a  similar  position.  There  are  some 
in  here  which  are  very  similar. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Let  me  direct  your  attention  to  pa^e  4. 

Mr.  Grimm.  Even  these  cartoons  here  [indicating],  some  of  these 
probably,  if  you  invert  them,  would  probably  be  very  similar. 

I  can't  say  that  I  ever  studied  these.  I  would  probably  be  more  like 

Mr.  Gaughan.  On  page  8  ? 

Mr.  Grimm.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  saw  one  in  there  where  they  had  a  person 
hanging  with  the  feet  down. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Yes.  There  are  so  many  different  illustrations  of 
this  hanging  business  and  trussing  business  that  it  is  hard  to  point  to 
any  particular  one. 

Let  me  show  you  this  one  here,  sir.  This  picture  here  illustrates  a 
model  known  as  Betty  Page. 

Does  that  accurately  reflect  about  how  your  boy  was  found? 

Mr.  Grimm.  It  is  more  or  less  the  same.  It  is  a  very  similar  posi- 
tion ;  there  is  a  resemblance  to  the  way  I  found  him. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  In  other  words,  when  you  went  through  this  book  by 
yourself  you  were  immediately  struck  by  the  number  of  illustrations 
in  that  book  that  depicted  the  same  fashion  in  which  your  boy  died? 

Mr.  Grimm.  That's  right. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  And  you,  sir,  came  to  what  conclusion  after  looking 
at  this  magazine  ? 

Mr.  Grimm.  As  I  say,  I  have  been  looking  for  some  clue  to  this  thing. 
I  haven't  had  the  police  into  it.  They  let  the  case  rest  as  some  type 
of  accident  due  to  some  impulse  on  the  part  of  the  boy.  They  don't 
know  anything  beyond  that,  and  they  haven't  been  of  any  help  beyond 

in  trying  to  solve  the  thing,  in  trying  to  arrive  at  some  more  definite 
reason  for  this,  why,  that  is  the  closest  thing  I  have  gotten  to  it.  The 
way  that  was  tied,  it  wasn't  anything  that  any  youngster  like  him,  with 
his  character — it  wasn't  anything  that  he  could  concoct  himself.  There 
wasn't  any  history  of  that;  no  similar  action  on  his  part.  He  led  an 
outdoor  life.  He  was  active  in  the  Boy  Scouts  from  the  time  he  was  a 
little  bit  of  a  fellow.  He  had  attended  a  boys'  camp  in  Tennessee  for 
5  or  6  seasons.  He  had  only  been  home  2  days  from  the  camp  when  this 
happened.  He  was  a  counselor  there  this  year,  and  I  don't  think  they 
would  have  selected  him  and  invited  him  to  have  become  a  counselor  if 
there  was  anything  questionable  about  his  actions. 

Therefore,  I  feel  that  he  could  not  have  worked  himself  into  this 
position  of  his  own  making,  or  couldn't  have  thought  of  anything  like 
that.  It  would  have  had  to  have  been  brought  to  his  attention  by  either 
someone  else  showing  him  how,  or  he  saw  a  picture  of  it — I  don't  know. 
I  feel  there  is  a  definite  connection  between  this  sort  of  thing  and  his 

I  also  feel  there  is  definitely  an  evil  to  this,  and  I  am  bound  and  deter- 
mined to  do  what  I  can  to  suppress  it.     It  isn't  good.     It  is  an  un- 


healthy  situation.  It  is  not  wholesome.  There  is  iiothiiio-  cultural 
about  it.     It  is  just  no  damned  good.     That's  all  I  can  say  about  it. 

Naturally,  I  feel  more  keenly  about  it  since  I  was  involved  in  some- 
thing that  I  feel  is  a  direct  result  of  something  like  this,  you  see. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Your  boy  is  gone,  and  you  are  trying  to  prevent  any- 
thing like  this  happening  in  the  future  to  any  other  parents? 

Mr.  Grimm.  That's  right. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  In  other  words,  sir,  you  became  interested  in  this 
thing  known  as  bondage,  this  tying,  after  your  boy's  death,  and  it  was 
something  with  which  you  were  not  acquainted  prior  to  this  incident? 

Mr.  Grimm.  That's  right. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  And  you  are  now  in  your  mind  thoroughly  convinced 
that  he  was  a  victim  of  this  thing  that  we  have  been  discussing  this 
morning  with  Dr.  Henry,  called  the  bondage  and  fetish  ? 

Mr.  Grimm.  That's  right.     In  some  way ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Sir,  I  hand  you  a  clipj^ing  from,  I  believe  this  is, 
the  Miami  Herald  of  January  7,  1955  [handing  to  Mr.  Grimm] . 

Mr.  Grimm.  Yes. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Headed  "Murder  Charged  to  Vet  in  Beach  Stran- 
gling." Would  you,  sir,  tell  us  the  contents  of  that  article,  what  it 
purports  to  show  ? 

Mr.  Grimm.  It  concerns  the  case  of  a  young  fellow  about  21  years 
old,  a  veteran  of  the  Marine  Corps,  just  out  of  the  marines,  who  it 
seems  was  invited  to  the  apartment  of  a  male  hairdresser  about  27  years 
old,  and  they  found  the  hairdresser  trussed  up  in  a  very  similar  fashion 
to  the  way  these  pictures  look  there,  and  the  way  I  found  my  son — the 
same  type  of  thing.  In  fact,  the  newspapers  made  reference  to  both 
cases,  the  similarity  of  both  cases. 

As  a  result,  this  27-year-old  fellow  died,  and  the  veteran  has  been 
sentenced  and  convicted,  or  convicted  and  sentenced  to  a  lifetime  sen- 
tence in  prison. 

The  only  tieup  it  has  with  my  son's  case  is  that  there  was  news- 
paper references  to  the  two,  and  it  seems  to  me  it  has  to  do  with  the 
same  sort  of  thing  which  we  are  all  here  discussing  now. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  I  understand,  Mr.  Grimm,  that  this  young  man  who 
died  on  January  G  of  this  year  was  found  trussed  up  in  the  same  type 
of  position  except  that  he  was  laid  on  the  floor  instead  of  suspended. 

Mr.  Grimm.  Similar,  yes;  very  similar  position.  The  rope  was 
behind  his  back,  of  course.  It  was  unnatural.  If  it  was  just  a  case  of 
tying  somebody  up  to  keep  them  from  getting  away,  when  you  study 
this,  as  you  and  I  have  since  we  have  become  interested  in  this,  you 
recognize  it  innnediately  as  an  unusual  practice.  It  isn't  anything 
that  happens  just  in  the 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Normal  course  of  events? 

Mr.  Grimm.  That's  right.  Somebody  just  tying  somebody  up  to 
keep  them  from  getting  away — there  is  some  sex  angle  connected  with 
this,  and  the  police  recognize  it  as  such.  It  evidently  has  a  tie-in  with 
this  bondage  idea,  about  which  I  never  knew  before  I  started  studying 
it  recently. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  This  clipping,  sir,  and  other  similar  clippings  to  it, 
at  the  time  the  newspapers  in  the  area  called  attention  to  the  similarity 
of  your  boy's  death,  this  bov's  death 

Mr.  Grimm.  That's  right. 


Mr,  Gaughan,  And  it  "was  pointed  out  at  the  trial  of  the  young 
man — I  believe  he  was  a  20-year-old  young  man  who  was  convicted  and 
who  is  now  serving  life  in  the  Florida  State  prison- — that  it  was  a 
definite  sex  crime,  and  that  he  had  committed  an  unnatural  act  upon 
the  young  man  who  was  trussed  up. 

Mr.  Grimm.  No,  sir;  it  wasn't  exactly  like  that. 

I  believe  that  the  theory  behind  the  thing  is  that  it  was  a  sex  crime 
of  this  nature,  also,  but  I  don't  believe  that — there  was  some  evidence 
of  a  sex  act  involved,  but  just  who  was  involved,  I  don't  know. 

As  a  matter  of  record,  I  don't  believe  it  involved  the  young  man. 
He  claims  the  other  fellow  propositioned  him,  and  as  a  result  he  tied 
hfm  up.     That's  his  story. 

Chairman  Kefaua'er.  Let  this  be  filed  as  an  exhibit. 

(The  newspaper  clippings  were  marked  "Exhibit  No.  20,"  and  are 
on  file  with  the  subcommittee.) 

Mr.  Gaughan.  In  other  words,  this  is  an  end  result,  as  we  discussed 
with  Dr.  Henry  this  morning,  of  the  unnatural  fetishes,  and  another 
boy  is  dead. 

Mr.  Grimm.  That's  right. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  no  further  questions.  Is 
there  any  question  you  would  like  to  ask  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Senator  Langer,  any  questions  ? 

Senator  Langer.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Grimm,  tell  us  again  how  it  was  you  got 
this  publication  ? 

Mr.  Grimm.  He  had  an  ad  in  the  girlie-type  magazine — a  full-page 
ad,  in  fact — describing  a  lot  of  this  tying  up  business. 

A  friend,  being  interested  in  my  case,  tliought  it  might  throw  some 
light  on  my  son's  case,  so  he  brouglit  me  the  magazine.  As  a  result, 
my  son-in-law  sent  for  this  magazine  to  see  what  there  was  to  it,  and 
sent  it  to  me.     That's  how  I  came  upon  this  catalog. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  In  this  catalog  which  has  been  shown  to 

Mr.  Grimm.  Incidentally,  after  listening  to  the  testimony  this  morn- 
ing, there  is  no  question  there,  again,  as  to  whether  it  was  a  minor  or 
who  was  asking  for  this  literature.  It  was  just  sent  out  without  any 
strings  attached  at  all. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  In  this  catalog  are  small  examples  of  what 
you  will  see  in  larger  and  more  numerous  types 

Mr.  Grimm.  Probably  so;  yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Folders.  When  you  send  in  the  money  you 
get  the  whole  thing. 

Mr.  Grimm.  That's  right.  Evidently,  we  didn't  send  in  for  them, 
because  this  was  just  more  or  less  as  far  as  we  cared  to  go  with  it  at 
tiie  time. 

Evidently  they  come  in  serial  form.  The  one  picture  encourages 
you  to  buy  more.  I  suppose  that's  the  idea.  We  never  went  in  for 
that ;  we  didn't  know.     I  presume  that  that's  the  idea  behind  it. 

In  other  words,  you  get  on  the  mailing  list,  and  I  suppose  you  are  a 
subscriber  tlien,  if  you  care  to  be,  and  you  can  buy  as  much  of  it  as  you 

Chairman  Kefauaer.  It  gives  a  little  example  of  what  it  is  you  are 
going  to  see ;  and  then  it  says  that  after  being  bound  and  blindfolded, 
"Joan  is  led  away  in  an  automobile  driven  by  a  bound  and  gagged 


chauffeurette,  taken  to  a  training  school."  The  price  is  50  cents,  each 
chapter,  size  8  by  10, 

So  that  you  order  by  number,  and  then  you  get  a  large  picture 
and  a  series  of  the  similar  kind  of  picture  here.  That  is  what  this 
catalog  is. 

Mr.  Grimm.  That's  right. 

Chairman  Kefauvj:r.  I  think  it  is  interesting  to  look  at  this.  This 
seems  to  be  the  97th  edition.    The  catalog  itself  costs  50  cents. 

Mr.  Grimm.  Yes.  Obviously,  I  believe  you  will  agree  with  me — 
I  am  no  expert  on  this  sort  of  thing,  but  I  have  been  around  a  little  bit 
in  my  life,  in  the  type  of  work  that  I  do — it  doesn't  take  an  expert  to 
recognize  that  as  not  a  wliolesome,  cultural  type  of  literature.  It 
definitely  was  not  displayed  or  sent  through  the  mails  for  that  reason 
at  all,  to  add  to  the  cultural  uplift  of  the  country  at  all.  It  is  evil ; 
it  is  no  good. 

Chairman  Kepauver.  Well,  it  speaks  for  itself. 

Mr.  Grimm.  That's  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Well,  sir,  we  thank  you  for  your  cooperation 
and  for  the  help  you  have  given  us. 

Mr.  Grimm.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Who  is  our  next  witness  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Irving  Klaw. 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  would  like  to  request  no  photographs,  no  lights.  If 
you  don't  mind. 

Chairman  Kefauver,  The  photographers  have  a  right  to  take  your 
picture.  As  customary,  after  you  start  testifying,  we  will  ask  that 
the  lights  be  turned  off. 

Have  you  been  sworn,  Mr.  Klaw? 

Mr.  Klaw.  No. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  solemnly  swear  the  testimony  you 
will  give  the  subcommittee  will  be  the  whole  truth,  so  help  you  God? 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  do. 


Chairman  Kefauver.  You  had  counsel  with  the  other  day  ? 

Mr.  Klaw.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairaian  Kefauver.  Is  he  with  you  ? 

Mr.  Klaw.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefaua^er.  Mr.  Counsel,  won't  you  come  up? 

Mr.  Gangel.  I  am  available  in  the  room  for  consultation  if  he 
wants  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  If  you  want  to  sit  with  Mr.  Klaw,  you  may. 

Mr.  Gangel.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver,  Just  as  you  wish.  If  you  will  just  be  avail- 
able for  consultation,  that  is  all  right. 

Mr.  Gangel.  I  will  be  available  to  him. 
_  Chairman  Kefauver.  If  you  wish  to  consult  with  Mr.  Gangel  at  any 
time,  you  will  let  the  subcommittee  know  and  we  will  interrupt  the 
proceedings  for  tliat  purpose. 

Let  the  record  show  that  Senator  Langer  and  the  chairman  are 

Mr.  Chumbris,  will  you  proceed  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr,  KlaAv,  will  you  state  your  full  name? 


Mr.  Klaw.  Irving  Klaw. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  And  your  address  ? 

Mr.  Klaw.  212  East  14tli  Street,  New  York  City. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Klaw,  in  what  business  are  you  engaged  ( 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  of  the 
Constitution  of  the  United  States,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incrimi- 
nate me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Chumbris,  I  think  it  would  be  well  for 
you  to  make  a  brief  statement  as  to  the  nature  of  the  testimony  that 
you  expect  to  elicit  from  Mr.  Klaw  by  your  questions  so  that  we  can 
determine  whether  the  evidence  that  you  would  expect  to  secure  comes 
within  the  jurisdiction  of  the  inquiry  of  this  subcommittee. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Chairman,  our  investigation  reveals  that  Mr. 
Klaw  is  one  of  the  largest  distributors  of  obscene,  lewd,  and  fetish 
photographs  throughout  the  country  by  mail. 

We  expect  to  show  that  he  has  had  difficulties  with  the  Post  Office 

We  have  had  testimony  today,  as  Mell  as  last  week  from  Dr.  Karp- 
man,  and  Dr.  Henry  today,  showing  the  effect  that  these  photo- 
graphs have  on  juveniles  and  on  youth. 

We  have  had  testimony  today  from  Mr.  Roth,  and  other  testimony, 
which  indicates  that  this  material  does  get  into  the  hands  of  youth, 
and  our  subcommittee  has  received  complaints  from  many  parents  to 
the  effect  that  advertisements  of  these  particular  i^hotographs,  as  well 
as  the  photographs  themselves,  have  gotten  to  the  youth. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  expect  to  ask  Mr.  Klaw^  and  do  you 
have  as  to  the  material  that  "he  is  sending  out,  information  that  they 
are  getting  to  the  children  and  to  the  young  people;  is  that  part  of 
the  showing  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That  is  right.  That  is  part  of  the  overall  investi- 
gation that  not  only  Mr.  Klaw  but  others  are  producing  the  type  of 
fetish  photographs'  and  lewd  photographs  that  not  only  in  some  in- 
stances have  used  youth  as  models,  but  they  do  get  into  the  hands  of 
the  youth. 

We  do  believe  that  that  has  a  direct  bearing  on  our  juvenile  delin- 
quency investigation. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Part  of  this  record  will  also  include  the  testi- 
mony of  Dr.  Henry,  Mr.  Grimm,  and  of  the  exhibits  which  have  been 
put  "into  tlie  record,  including  Cartoon  and  Model  Parade,  published 
by  Irving  Klaw,  the  Pin-Up  King,  for  artists,  photogi\aphy  students, 
and  collectors. 

Mr.  Chumbris,  do  you  expect  to  prove  that  our  subcommittee  has 
complaints  and  correspondence  from  parents  or  children,  law-enforce- 
ment officers,  showing  that  Mr.  Klaw's  publication  has  anything  to  do 
of  a  deleterious  nature  affecting  juvenile  delinquency  with  young 
people  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Yes,  Mr.  Chairman.  The  Post  Office  Department 
has  turned  over  to  us  advertisements  similar  to  the  advertisements 
that  we  introduced  into  the  record  this  morning  that  Mr.  Eoth  has 
sent  out.     These  advetisements  have  gotten  to  the  youth. 

We  have  this  exhibit  which  shows  the  type  of  photos  that  do  go  out 
throughout  the  country. 


"VVe  have  a  statement  here  wliich  shows  that  65  percent  of  the  cus- 
tomers that  Mr.  Khiw  has  of  movie  stills  are  girls  from  G  to  IG,  thereby 
ci-eating  a  mailino-  list  of  a  great  many  minors. 

We  have  in  our  investigation  determined  information  to  that  effect, 
that  he  has  a  mailing  list 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  mean  that  he  uses  young  people  or 
minors  in  the  pictures  and  the  magazines  that  go  out  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  No  ;  that  they  are  the  ones  who  request  of  Mr.  Klaw 
the  movie  stills. 

He  has  a  mailing  list— 65  percent  of  that  mailing  list,  customer  list 
of  those  stills,  are  girls  from  6  to  16.  I  would  like  to  ask  hnn  those 
particular  questions. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Very  well.  In  the  opinion  of  the  subcom- 
mittee the  statement  of  what  you  expect  to  prove  by  Mr.  Klaw  has 
relevancy  and  is  within  the  jurisdiction  of  this  subcommittee  to  make 

Would  the  reporter  repeat  the  question  ? 

(The  reporter  read  the  question,  as  follows :) 

Mr.  Klaw,  in  what  business  are  you  engaged? 

Chairman  Kefau\t:r.  Mr.  Klaw ,  the  subcommittee  will  order  you 
to  answer  that  question. 

Mr.  Klaw.  May  I  speak  to  my  counsel,  please? 

Chairman  KEFAu^^R.  You  may  speak  to  your  counsed.  We  will 
have  a  brief  recess. 

(Mr.  Klaw  confers  with  Mr.  Gangel.) 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  of  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefaua^er.  Mr.  Klaw^,  in  fairness  and  in  compliance  with 
the  requirements  of  the  Supreme  Court,  I  must  warn  you  that  this 
committee  will  cite  you  for  contempt  of  the  Senate  if  you  decline  to 
answei',  and  I  wnll  now  give  you  a  further  chance  to  answer. 

That  is  within  the  power  that  we  have,  we  feel  that  you  are  in 
contempt  of  the  Senate  by  refusing  to  answer.  It  will  be  our  inten- 
tion to  go  through  the  legal  proceedings  and  the  legislative  proceed- 
ing necessary  to  have  you  cited  for  contempt. 

Do  you  still  refuse  to  answer? 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  of  the 

Would  that  be  sufficient  to  state,  that  I  decline  under  the  fifth 
amendment,  or  should  I  say  it  all  the  way  through,  Mr.  Kefauver? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  are  not  asking  any  quarter  and  we  are 
not  giving  any  quarter,  Mr.  Klaw. 

Mr.  Counsel,  or  Mr.  Klaw.  I  doii't  know  what  offense  that  your  client 
may  have  in  mind.  We  have  no  desire  for  him  to  answer  any  question 
or  to  direct  him  to  answer  a  question  where  he  pleads  the  fifth  amend- 
ment if  tliere  is  really  some  justification,  if  he  is  in  actual  fear  of  prose- 
cution under  some  Federal  statute,  or  even  if  while  it  is  not  the  law, 
some  imminent  State  statute  of  the  State  of  New  York. 

Will  you,  Mr.  Klaw.  or  you,  Mr.  Gangel,  wish  to  elaborate  under 
Avhat  law  he  fears  he  might  incriminate  himself? 

Mr.  Gangel.  I  can  state,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  in  my  opinion  the 
witness  has  a  reasonable  apprehension  that  answers  would  tend  to 
incriminate  him. 


Chairman  KErAxrvER.  You  do  not  wish  to  be  more  specific,  Mr. 

Mr.  Gangel.  I  don't  believe  that  I  can  at  this  time. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  am  not  demanding  that  you  do ;  I  just  want 
to  give  you  an  opportunity. 

Mr.  Gangel.  I  believe,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  we  will  rest  upon  the 
asserted  privilege  of  the  witness  as  he  has  stated  it  upon  the  record. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Does  your  client  have  fear  of  any  violence,  of 
any  retaliation  of  any  outside  nature  in  case  he  might  answer  ? 

Mr.  Gangel,  If  he  has,  I  don't  know,  sir. 

Chairman  Ivefauver.  If  he  does,  does  he  wish  to  say  anything  about 
it  one  way  or  the  other  ?    Mr.  Klaw  ? 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  on  the  same  grounds. 

Chairman  ICefauver.  .  Very  well.  Ask  the  next  question,  Mr. 
Chumbris,  please  go  to  the  next  question, 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Klaw,  our  investigation  reveals  that  from  1933 
to  1937  you  operated  a  business  as  a  furrier.  I  wish  you  would  tell 
us  about  that. 

Mr.  Klaw.  May  I  speak  to  my  counsel,  please,  for  a  second  ? 

Chairman  KEFAm^ER.  Yes,  you  may. 

(Mr.  Klaw  confers  with  Mr.  Gangel.) 

Mr.  Klaw.  Yes.    I  was  employed  as  a  furrier  during  that  period 

mentioned.  ,   ,       .i 

Mr.  Gangel.  Excuse  me,  Mr.  Chairman,  do  I  understand  that  there 
are  pictures  being  taken  now  ?  I  understood  you  to  state  at  the  outset 
that  at  the  request  of  the  witness  that  would  not  prevail. 

Chairman  Ivefauver.  Yes;  that  is  the  rule.  If  you  request  that 
the  television  or  movies  not  be  taken  any  further,  we  will  ask  them 
to  desist. 

All  right,  next  question. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Klaw,  our  investigation  reveals  that  since  1937 
you  have  produced . 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Excuse  me  just  a  minute.  What  was  the  time 
he  operated  as  a  furrier  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  From  1933  to  1937. 

Chairman  Ivefauver.  Thank  you. 

Mr.  IvLAW.  Approximately  that  time.     I  dont  know  the  exact 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Our  investigation  reveals  that  since  1937  you  have 
produced  and  distributed  obscene,  nude,  and  fetish  photographs 
throughout  the  country  by  mail.     I  wish  you  would  tell  us  about  this. 

Mr,  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  of  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  might  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Ivefauver.  Mr.  Klaw,  you  are  directed  by  the  subcom- 
mittee to  answer.  .  -Hi. 

I  want  to  state  that  the  committee,  this  subcommittee,  will  expect 
to  endeavor  to  have  you  held  in  contempt  by  the  Senate,  and  through 
such  legal  and  legislative  procedures  as  may  be  necessary. 

Then,  if  held  in  contempt  by  the  Senate,  the  matter  then  goes  to 
the  district  court,  where  you  will  be  tried  for  that,  or  presented  to  a 
£[rand  jury. 

If  the  grand  jury  returns  a  true  bill,  presumably  you  will  be  tried 
unless  the  matter  is  dismissed  by  the  district  attorney. 


That  will  be  the  procedure  we  will  endeavor  to  follow  if  you  refuse 
to  answer. 

Do  you  wish  to  consult  your  counsel  ? 

Mr.  Klaw.  Yes. 

(Mr.  Klaw  confers  with  Mr.  Gangel.) 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  say  that  you  declme  to  answer  under 
the  fifth  amendment,  basing  your  grounds  upon  the  fifth  amendment 
to  the  Constitution. 

Next  question,  Mr.  Chumbris. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Klaw,  I  have  here  a  publication  known  as 
Cartoon  and  Model  Parade,  9Tth  edition,  price  50  cents,  published 
by  Irving  Klaw,  and  in  quotes,  "The  Pin- Up  King"— "For  artists, 
photography  students,  and  collectors." 

I  show  you  this  magazine  and  I  would  like  for  you  to  look  at  it  care- 
fully [handing  to  Mr.  Klaw]. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Ask  your  question,  Mr.  Chumbris. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Our  investigation  reveals  that  you  have  published 
that  magazine  and  that  you  have  distributed  throughout  the  United 
States  photographs  that  have  been  produced 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  magazine  speaks  for  itself. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That  have  been  produced  by  you  that  have  been 
reflected  in  this  particular  catalog. 

Will  you  tell  us  about  the  pictures  in  that  catalog  and  your  pro- 
duction and  distribution  of  those  pictures  throughout  the  United 
States  ? 

Mr.  IvLAw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  of  the 
Constitution,  on  the  grounds  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Klaw,  it  is  again  my  duty  to  direct  you 
to  answer  under  penalty  of  contempt  of  the  Senate.  Do  you  still 
refuse  ? 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  of  the 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Klaw,  do  you  or  any  company  with  which 
you  are  connected  print  or  publish  the  magazine  <^hat  has  been  handed 
to  you  and  which  will  now  be  identified  an  'Exhibit  A"  to  your  testi- 
mony ? 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  ordered  to  answer,  and  if  you  do  not 
answer  this  subcommittee  will  do  everything  possible  to  have  you  held 
in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Do  you  still  refuse  to  answer  ? 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  it  be  marked  and  identified  as  an  exhibit. 
Will  you  so  mark  it  at  the  present  time,  Mr.  Chumbris  ? 

(The  catalogue  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  21"  and  is  on  file  with 
the  subcommittee. ) 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Klaw,  our  investigation  reveals 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  order  that  the  magazine  marked  "Ex- 
hibit A"  is  made  a  part  of  the  official  record. 


Proceed,  ^Ir.  Chumbris. 

Mr.  CiiuMBRTs.  Mr.  Klaw,  our  investijoation  reveals  that  you  are 
known  as  one  of  the  hirgest  distributors  of  obscene,  nude,  and  fetish 
photographs.     I  wish  you  would  tell  the  subcommittee  about  this. 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefau^'er.  Mr.  Klaw,  you  are  directed  to  answer  by  the 
subconnnittee  under  penalty  of  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Klaav.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefatver.  Mr.  Chumbris,  your  first  question  was  about 
his  business.  I  should  like  to  ask  Mr.  Klaw  if  he  will  tell  us  in  what 
business  he  has  been  engaged  since  1937. 

Mr.  Klaw.  May  I  consult  my  counsel,  please? 

Chairman  Kefaumlr.  Very  well. 

(Mr.  Klaw  consults  with  Mr.  Gangel.) 

Mr.  Klaav.  1  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  tliat  to  ansAver  my  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  chairman  orders  you  to  answer  under 
penalty  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  ansAver  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefaua-er.  Next  question,  Mr.  Chumbris. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Klaw,  our  investigation  reveals  that  you  have 
been  investigated  by  the  United  States  Post  Office  Department  for 
alleged  violations  of  title  18,  sections  1-161  and  1462,  Avhich  pertain  to 
obscene  matter  sent  through  the  mails.  I  Avish  you  would  tell  this 
subcommittee  your  difficulties  Avith  the  Post  Office  Department. 

Mr.  Klaav.  I  Avould  like  to  consult  with  my  counsel. 

Chairman  Kefaua'er.  Very  Avell. 

(Mr.  KlaAv  consults  Avith  Mr.  Gangel.) 

Mr.  Klaav.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  ansAver  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefauater.  The  chair  directs  you  to  ansAver  under  penalty 
of  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Klaav.  I  decline  to  ansAver  under  the  fifth  amendment  that  to 
answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Senator  Langer.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  should  like  to  haA^e  a  recess  of 
5  minutes.     There  is  an  important  telephone  call  for  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  Avill  stand  in  recess  for  5  minutes. 

(A  recess  Avas  taken.) 

Senator  Lancer.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Chairman  Kefaua'er.  We  were  glad  to  have  a  recess.  The  recess  is 
now  terminated.  The  record  Avill  shoAv  that  Senator  Danger  and  the 
chairman  are  present. 

Mr.  Chumbris,  will  you  ask  your  next  question? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Klaw,  did  you  ever  employ  a  teen-ager  to  pose 
for  your  fetish  and  nude  photos  that  you  have  distributed  throughout 
the  United  States  by  mail? 

Mr.  Klaw^,  I  ask  you  to  answer  that,  please. 

Mr.  Klaav.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  grounds — under  the  fifth 
amendment  to  the  Constitution,  that  the  answer  may  tend  to  incrim- 
inate me. 


Chairman  Kefauver.  The  chairman  ^Yill  order  you  to  answer  the 
question  under  penalty  of  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let's  ask  this  question  : 

Have  you  ever  employed  any  teen-agers,  young  people  under  21 
years  of  age,  to  pose  or  participate  in  photographs,  in  the  making  of 
photographs  ? 

Mr.  KuAw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

C^hairman  Kefauver.  The  chairman  orders'  you  to  answer  under 
penalty  of  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  KuAw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefau\er.  Do  you  have  or  have  you  ever  had  a  mailing 
list  for  send  out  any  catalogs  or  information  which  includes  teen- 
agers ? 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  would  like  to  speak  to  my  counsel  for  a  second. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  may. 

(Mr.  Klaw  confers  with  Mr.  Gangel.) 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chaiinian  Kefauver.  You  are  ordered  and  directed  to  answer  under 
penalty  of  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  inider  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  ansAver  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  the  record  show  that  he  declines  to  answer. 

Go  ahead,  Mr.  Chumbris. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Klaw,  our  investigation  reveals  that  65  per- 
cent of  your  customers  for  movie  stills  are  girls  from  (5  to  16,  thereby 
creating  a  mailing  list  of  a  great  many  minors. 

Do  you  wish  to  tell  the  subcommittee  about  that  mailing  list?  Is  that 
true  ? 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  chairman  directs  you  to  answer  upon 
penalty  of  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment,  that  to 
answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Klaw,  our  investigation  reveals  that  some  of 
the  girls  who  modeled  for  your  obscene,  nude,  and  fetish  pictures  have 
also  posed  for  obscene  and  lewd  pictures  for  other  photographers.  Is 
this  true  or  not  ? 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  want  to  consult  my  counsel  for  a  minute. 

(Mr.  Klaw  confers  with  Mr.  Gangel.) 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Klaw,  you  are  directed  to  answ^er  under 
penalty  of  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Klaw,  have  you  ever  employed  or  do  you 
employ  any  young  people  under  18  years  of  age  in  your  business  ? 

65263—55 Ki 


Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  ordered  and  directed  to  answer  under 
penalty  of  contempt  of  the  United  States  Senate. 

Mr.  Klaw.  May  I  consult  my  attorney  for  a  second  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Yes. 

(Mr.  Klaw  confers  with  Mr.  Gangel.) 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  right.     Anything  else,  Mr.  Chumbris  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Yes,  sir, 

Mr.  Klaw,  our  investigation  reveals  that  some  of  your  clients  request 
fetish  and  other  photographs  made  to  order  to  satisfy  your  client's 
specific  perversions,  that  you  fulfill  such  requests.     Is  that  true  or  not  ? 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  order  you  to  answer  under  penalty  of 
contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Klaw,  our  investigation  reveals  that  you  do  a 
gross  business  of  $1,500,000  a  year  in  the  production  and  distribution 
of  nude  and  fetish  pictures.     Is  that  true  or  false  ? 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  chairman  will  direct  you  to  answer  under 
penalty  of  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Klaw\  I  decline  to  answer  imder  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Klaw,  do  you  go  under  the  title  of  "King  of 
photographs,"  "King  of  the  Pin-up  Photographs"  ? 

Mr.  Klaw.  May  I  speak  to  my  counsel  for  a  minute  ? 

(Mr.  Klaw  confers  with  Mr.  Gangel.) 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  directed  to  answer  under  penalty 
of  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  KLAW^  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution — that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Klaw,  our  investigation  reveals  that  you  have 
the  largest  collection  of  movie  stills  of  any  one  person  in  the  United 
States  of  America.     Is  that  true  or  false? 

Mr.  Klaw^  I  would  like  to  consult  my  counsel  for  a  minute. 

(Mr.  Klaw  confers  with  Mr.  Gangel.) 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution — that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  directed  to  answer  under  penalty  of 
contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution — that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  think  that  covers  the  field  fairly  well. 

Mr.  Klaw,  you  will  remain  under  continuing  subpena  and  report 
back  when  you  or  your  counsel  is  notified. 

Mr.  Gangel,  I  think  we  have  your  address. 


Mr.  Gangel.  I  stated  it  for  the  record  last  Tuesday,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  State  it  again.     It  is  G-a-n-g-e-1? 

Mr.  Gangel.  That's  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  is  your  first  name? 

Mr.  Gangel.  Coleman,  C-o-l-e-m-a-n. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  your  address? 

Mr.  Gangel.  165  Broadway. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Upon  notice  to  you,  Mr.  Klaw,  or  you,  Mr. 
Gangel  ? 

As  v^^e  leave,  Mr.  Klaw,  I  think  T  should  advise  you  again  that  we 
expect  to  endeavor  to  have  you  held  in  contempt  for  refusal  to  answer 
some  or  all  of  these  questions. 

If  you  wish  to  reconsider  and  give  us  any  information  about  the 
subject  matter  which  we  have  asked  you,  I  will  give  you  an  oppor- 
tunity to  do  so  at  this  time. 

Mr.  Gangel.  May  I  ask  the  chairman  whether  a  transcript  of  the 
questions  and  answers  would  be  available  to  the  witness  upon  payment 
of  the  cost  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  will  instruct  the  reporter  to  let  the  witness 
or  his  attorney  have  a  copy  of  the  transcript  upon  payment  of  the 

That  is  all. 

Mr.  Gaughan.  Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  direct  the  attention  of  counsel, 
and  the  attention  of  Mr.  Klaw,  to  the  fact  that  after  Mr.  Klaw  claimed 
the  privilege,  he  later  answered  a  question  concerning  his  past  asso- 
ciations and  business  life,  and  then  went  back  behind  the  privilege 
again  and  refused  to  answer  questions. 

I  think,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  that  probably  wnll  be  the  position  of 
this  subcommittee  that  he  relinquished  his  right  to  claim  the  privilege 
once  he  answered  the  question  concerning  his  past  business  association. 

Mr.  Gangel.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  think  that  points  up  the  burden  of 
counsel  in  advising  the  witness  under  the  circumstances. 

Chairman  Kefatht.r.  Yes.    That  is  Mr.  Gangel's 

Mr.  Gangel.  Headache. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  appreciate  the  suggestion,  Mr.  Gaughan; 
but  that  is  a  matter  for  Mr.  Klaw  and  his  counsel. 

Senator  Langer? 

Senator  Langer.  Could  I  see  that  exhibit  21  ? 
(Exhibit  21  was  handed  to  Senator  Langer.) 

Senator  Langer.  No  questions. 

Chairman  KEFAirsTiR.  Mr.  Klaw,  you  appeared  here  on  last  Tues- 
day. At  that  time  you  were  asked  to  bring  in  certain  books  and 
papers  as  described  in  the  subpena  which  had  been  served  upon  you. 
You  refused  to  do  so,  either  under  the  fourth  amendment  or  under 
the  fifth  amendment. 

Have  you  brought  those  books  and  papers  in  as  directed  ? 

Mr.  Klaw\  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

And  furthermore,  under  the  fourth  amendment  to  the  Constitution, 
the  subpena  is  vague  and  illegal. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  ordered  to  answer  the  question  under 
penalty  of  contempt  of  the  United  States  Senate. 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment  to  the 
Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 


Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  not  complied  witli  the  snbpena,  Miv 
Klaw,  and  it  is  my  duty  to  warn  you  that  your  not  having  complied 
with  the  snbpena,  unless  you  express  a  willingness  now  to  comply 
with  the  snbpena,  that  this  subcommittee  will  do  all  within  its  power 
to  have  you  cited  for  contempt  by  the  Senate. 

Do  you  wish  to  comply  with  the  snbpena  ? 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  would  like  to  speak  to  my  counsel  for  a  second. 

Chairman  Kefau\t;r.  You  will  have  that  opportunity. 

(Mr.  Klaw  confers  with  Mr.  Gangel.) 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  wish  to  answer  that  I  decline  to  answer  under  the 
fifth  amendment  to  the  Constitution,  that  to  answer  may  tend  to  in- 
criminate me. 

And  furthermore,  that  under  tlie  fourth  amendment  to  the  Consti- 
tution, that  to  make  them  available  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefau\t:jr.  Again,  sir,  you  are  ordered  to  answer  penalty 
of  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Do  you  continue  to  decline  to  answer  and  to  produce  the  books 
and  records? 

Mr.  Klaw.  I  decline  to  answer  under  the  fifth  amendment,  that  to 
answer  may  tend  to  incriminate  me. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Gangel,  I  believe  that  is  all. 

Mr.  Gangel.  Thank  you,  sir. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Mishkin. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Sit  down,  Mr.  Mishkin. 

Mr.  Mishkin,  you  were  here  on  last  Thursday.  At  that  time  you 
were  accompanied  by  Mr.  Weiss. 

We  have  a  note  from  Mr.  Weiss.  He  called,  or  somebody  called,, 
saying  that  he  cannot  come  today  because  he  is  in  a  city  council  meet- 
ing, but  he  is  sending  Mishkin  and  Stone  here.  It  would  be  good  to 
introduce  this  item  into  the  record  and  show  that  Mr.  Weiss  is  the 
counsel  man. 

Do  you  wish  to  secure  any  counsel  to  advise  you  upon  any  matters 
here  ? 

Mr.  MisHKix.  At  the  present  moment? 

Chairman  Kefai^er.  Yes. 

Mr.  MisiiKix.  I  don't  know  of  any.     No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  intend  to  handle  it  yourself? 

Mr.  ^Mishkin.  I  have  been  advised  by  him  what  to  sny. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  talked  to  your  counsel  and  he  has 
advised  you  what  to  say.     You  have  it  before  you? 

Mr.  Mishkin.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  your  instructions  written  out  on  a 
piece  of  paper,  I  understand. 

Ijet  the  record  show  that  Senator  Danger  and  the  chairman  are 
liere.     Mr.  Mishkin  has  returned  again  pursuant  to  snbpena. 

Mr.  Chumbris,  I  wish  you  would  stat«  very  briefly  what  it  is  that 
you  expect  or  hope  to  prove  by  Mr.  Mishkin  which  brings  your 
questions  or  the  information  that  you  are  eliciting  Avithin  the  juris- 
diction of  this  subcommittee. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Chairman,  our  investigation  reveals  that  Mr. 
Mishkin  deals  in  pornographic  material;  that  not  only  does  he  dis- 
tribute and  sell  the  material  but  he  has  also  been  known  to  finance 
other  persons  in  the  distribution  and  sale  of  pornographic  material.. 


Chairman  Kefauver.  Does  this  pornographic  material  reach  chil- 
•dren  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  From  tlie  information  that  we  have  received,  this 
pornographic  matei-ial  reaches  children  throughout  the  many  areas 
of  the  ITnited  States.  Known  pornographers  have  received  their 
particuhir  pornographic  material  through  Mr.   Mishkin's  sources. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  there  evidence  that  this  material  contrib- 
utes or  increases  juvenile  delinquency  among  the  young  people? 

Mr,  CiruMBRis.  Yes.  I  tliink  the  testimony  not  only  here  in  New 
York  but  in  other  hearings  is  replete  with  testimony  to  the  effect  that 
pornography  in  the  hands  of  juveniles  has  a  terrific  impact  on  them 
and  leads  them  to  delinquent  acts. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Mishkin  was  asked  a  number  of  questions 
the  other  day.  Do  you  have  questions  you  wish  to  ask  him  at  this 
time  ? 

Mr.  CiiUMBRTs.  Yes ;  I  have,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Will  you  proceed. 

The  Chair  will  rule,  and  it  is  the  consensus  of  the  subcommittee 
authorized  to  sit  liere,  showing  what  counsel  would  expect  to  prove 
by  this  witness  has  a  connection  with  juvenile  delinquency,  which  is 
the  subject  matter  we  are  studying  here. 

Mr.  Chumbris,  you  go  on  with  your  questions. 


Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Mishkin,  our  investigation  reveals  that  you 
are  in  the  business  of  pornography  and  obscene  literature,  and  have 
heen  for  quite  some  period  of  time,  at  least  3  to  5  years.     Is  that  true? 

Mr.  MisiiKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  tlie  Constitution. 

Cliairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Mishkin,  this  question  has  been  asked  of 
you,  as  others  were  the  other  day.  The  chairman  will  have  to  order 
you  to  answer  this  question. 

I  must  warn  you  now  that  your  refusal  to  answer  this  question  will 
force  this  subcommittee  to  consider  you  in  contempt  of  the  United 
States  Senate,  and  will  endeavor  to  take  such  action  as  is  necessary  to 
have  it  presented  to  the  Senate  which,  in  turn,  will  refer  it  to  a  district 
attorney  here  in  this  district  of  New  York  for  presentment  to  a  grand 

In  other  words,  it  will  be  our  intention  to  make  you  pay  the  penalty 
for  contempt  of  the  Senate  if  you  refuse  to  answer  this  and  other 
questions  which  you  are  ordered  to  answer. 

Do  you  understand  that,  sir? 

Mr.  MiSHKix.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  innnunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  ordered  to  answer,  and  you  still  re- 
fuse to  answer;  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer. 

Chairman  Kefau^tr.  I  would  like  to  ask  a  question. 

Mr.  Mishkin,  in  what  business  are  you  presently  engaged? 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  ordered  to  answer  upon  penalty  of 
being  in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 


Mr.  MiSHKTN.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  record  will  show  that  he  still  refused  to 

Go  ahead,  Mr.  Chumbris. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Mishkin,  our  investigation  reveals  that  you  have 
developed  your  obscene-material  business  to  the  point  that  you  manu- 
facture, you  wholesale,  you  distribute,  and  you  have  large  retail  busi- 
ness of  obscene  material  in  your  store ;  that  you  also  finance  people  to 
get  into  the  obscene-material  business.     Is  that  true  ? 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  chairman  directs  you  to  answer  under 
penalty  of  being  in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Mishkin,  in  whatever  business  you  may 
be  engaged  do  you  employ  children  ? 

Mr.  IMiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  directed  to  answer  under  penalty  of 
being  in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

]\Ir.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Next  question,  Mr.  Chumbris. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Mishkin,  our  investigation  reveals  that  a  Mr. 
Cobb  borrowed  $2,000  from  you  to  get  started  in  the  obscene-picture 

Mr.  Mishkin.  Wliat  was  that  name  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Cobb,  C-o-b-b.  He  borrowed  $2,000  from  you 
to  get  started  in  the  obscene-picture  business.     Is  that  true? 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefau^ter.  You  are  ordered  to  answer  under  penalty  of 
being  in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Next  question. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Our  investigation  reveals  that  Mr.  Cobb  and  you 
had  a  dispute  and  a  falling  out  in  your  business  relationship  on  the 
pornographic  material.     Is  that  true? 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  don't  think  that  I  will  order  him  to  answer 
that  question. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Mishkin,  our  investigation  reveals  that  you  have 
known  distributors  in  Florida,  in  New  York  City,  in  St.  Louis,  Mo., 
who  have  distributed  pornographic  material  to  juveniles  and  minors. 
Is  that  true? 

Mr,  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  ordered  to  answer  under  penalty  of 
being  in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 


Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefaitver.  Next  question. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Al  Stone,  alias  Abraham  Kubin- 
stein,  alias  Abraham  Rubin  ? 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answ^er  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefau^t.r.  You  are  ordered  to  answ^er  under  penalty  of 
being  in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Next  question. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Our  investigation  reveals  that  you  plagiarized  ma- 
terial from  one  Irving  Klaw",  resulting  in  serious  arguments  with  said 
Irving  Klaw.     Is  that  true  or  false? 

Mr.  MiSHKUsr.  What  was  that  question  again? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Our  investigation  reveals  that  you  have  plagiarized 

Mr.  MisiiKiN.  What  did  I  do  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  You  have  stolen  material  that  Mr.  Klaw  used — Mr. 
Irving  Klaw,  resulting  in  serious  arguments  with  said  Irving  Klavv^. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Plagiarized.  Do  you  know  what  plagiarized 
means  ? 

Mr.  MisHKiN.  I  know  what  that  means  now ;  yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  w^ant  to  answer  that  question? 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  ordered  to  answer  under  penalty  of 
being  in  conteniDt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  MiSHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Mishkin,  we  have  some  information  here 
that  has  been  brought  to  our  attention,  that  allegedly  you  purchased 
the  plates  and  financed  Kingsley  Book  Store  operated  by  a  young 
man  who  was  in  here  the  other  day,  for  the  printing  of  the  Nights 
of  Horror.     Is  that  true? 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answ^er  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  KErAu\'ER.  You  are  directed  to  answer  under  penalty 
of  being  in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions 
of  the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Proceed. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Mishkin,  do  you  own  outright  or  with  other 
persons  the  Times  Square  Book  Bazaar  in  New  York  City,  the  Little 
Book  Exchange  in  New  York  City,  and/or  the  Kingsley  Book  Store 
in  New  York  City,  all  stores  near  the  Times  Square  area  in  New- 
York  City  ? 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  ordered  and  directed  to  answer. 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answ^er  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 


Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  employ  any  minors,  any  teen-agers, 
in  any  business  with  which  you   are  connected? 

Mr.  MisHKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  will  be  ordered  and  directed  to  answer 
under  penalty  of  being  in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  MiSHKix.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Mishkin,  do  you  permit  minors  and  juveniles  to 
peruse  and/or  buy  obscene  material  that  you  sell  in  one  of  the  three 
stores  that  I  just  mentioned — the  Times  Square  Book  Bazaar,  the 
Little  Book  Exchange,  the  Kingsley  Book  Store,  or  any  one  of  those 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  ordered  and  directed  to  answer  under 
penalty  of  being  in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  MisHKix.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  proA^sions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Proceed. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Mishkin,  how  long  have  you  been  in  the  porno- 
graphic material  business? 

Mr.  INIisHKix.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  directed  to  answer  under  penaltj' 
of  being  in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  understand  what  the  term  "fetish  pictures" 
means  ? 

Mr.  MisHTN.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  proA^isions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  ordered  to  answer. 

Mr.  MisiiKix.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  imminiity  proA'isions  of 
the  fiftli  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  understand  what  "obscene  pictures,"  or 
■"obscene  booklets,"    or  "obscene  paper  writings"  mean? 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefaua^r.  Very  well. 

Now,  Mr.  Mishkin,  you  refused  to  ansAver  some  questions  on  last 

Senator  Danger.  May  I  ask  a  question? 

Chairman  Kefaiwer.  Yes,  Senator  Danger. 

Senator  Danger.  Mr.  "Witness,  did  you  print  or  have  printed,  or  did 
you  manufacture,  or  did  you  AA^holesale  or  did  you  distribute  pictures 
shoAAing  a  young  boy  about  15  having  sexual  intercourse  with  a 
girl  of  14  ? 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  ansAver  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefaua'er.  You  are  directed  to  ansAver  under  penalty  of 
being  in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Mishkin,  I  refuse  to  ansAA^er  under  the  immunity  provisions. 

Chairman  Kefauwer.  Senator  Daiiijer. 


Senator  Langer.  Mr.  Witness,  did  you  print  or  have  printed,  or  did 
you  wholesale,  or  did  you  distribute  pictures  showing  a  bulldoo;  having 
sexual  intercourse  with  a  girl  ap]:)roximately  15  years  of  age? 

Mr.  INIisiiKiN,  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  imnuniity  provisions  of 
tlie  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  KEFALmsH.  You  are  ordered  to  answer  under  penalty  of 
being  in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  MisiiKiN.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Mishkin,  you  refused  to  answer  some 
questions  the  other  day,  and  you  refused  to  answer  some  today. 

The  law  bends  over  backward,  or  is  very  lenient,  in  giving  witnesses 
the  protection  of  the  fifth  amendment  if  they  are  entitled  to  it.  I 
feel  I  must  notify  you  and  warn  you  that  it  will  be  our  endeavor  to 
have  you  cited  for  contempt  for  refusal  to  answer  the  questions  the 
other  day  and  your  refusal  to  answer  questions  today,  and  to  give  you 
a  final  chance  of  doing  so  if  you  wish  to  do  so  now. 

If  there  are  any  of  these  questions  that  you  want  to  answer,  or  if 
there  is  any  explanation  you  want  to  give,  we  will  be  glad  to  hear 
you  now. 

Mr.  Mishkin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions 
of  the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefaun'er.  Very  well,  Mr.  Mishkin.  You  will  remain 
under  subpena,  and  it  may  be  we  will  want  to  call  you  again.  You  are 
excused  now. 

Call  our  next  witness. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Shapiro,  please.     Mr.  A.  M.  Shapiro. 

Chairman  Kefaitver.  Let  us  call  another  witness  if  he  is  not  here. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Is  Mr. — Mr.  Kaplain,  Mr.  Shomer  received  the 
subcommittee's  telegram  this  morning.  Mr.  Rachstein,  his  counsel, 
was  away  for  the  weekend.  They  expect  Mr.  Rachstein  back  about 
4  o'clock. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  will  defer  his  appearance  until  later  on. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Rubin. 


Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Rubin,  you  were  sworn  the  other  day 
and  testified  here  last  Thursday,  I  believe;  is  that  right? 

Mr.  Rubin.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  been  notified  to  come  back  today? 

Mr.  Rubin.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  He  objects  to  being  televised.  Gentlemen,, 
I  will  ask  your  indulgence. 

Mr.  Rubin,  you  go  by  the  name  of  Abraham  Rubin  and  not  Al 
Stone  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  That  is  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Wiich  is  correct? 

]Mr,  Rubin.  Abraham  Rubin. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Or  is  it  Al  Stone? 

Mr.  Rubin.  Abraham  Rubin. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Are  you  known  as  Al  Stone  sometimes  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.   You  never  have  been? 


Mr.  Rubin.  Abraham  Rubin. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  don't  know  where  we  got  Al  Stone.  Have 
you  ever  been  known  as  Al  Stone  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  My  name  is  Abraham  Rubin. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  My  question  was,  have  you  been  known  as 
Al  Stone? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  iimnunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Rubin,  you  were  here  the  other  day  with 
your  counsel,  Mr.  Weiss.  We  got  a  message  he  had  been  attending 
a  city  council  meeting.  Have  you  conferred  with  him,  and  do  you 
wish  to  have  counsel  at  this  time  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  will  go  ahead. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Have  you  conferred  with  Mr.  Weiss — and 
you  have  a  little  piece  of  paper  there  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  is  on  that  piece  of  paper  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Are  you  i-efusing  to  tell  me  what  is  on  the 
paper,  or  are  you  talking  about  what  is  on  the  paper  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  That  is  on  the  paper. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  is  what  Mr.  Weiss  gave  you  to  read  out 
«very  time  you  are  asked  a  question  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Did  you  say  "Yes"? 

Mr.  Rubin.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Then  you  don't  need  Mr.  Weiss  here? 

Mr.  Rubin.  That  is  right. 

Chairman  Kefau\"er.  But  if  you  want  to  have  an  attorney  to  con- 
sult with,  we  want  to  give  you  an  opportunity  to  do  so.  Do  you 
understand  that  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  want  to  have  an  attorney  to  consult 
with  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  You  can  postpone  it. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Can  you  get  Mr.  Weiss  here  this  afternoon? 

Mr.  Rubin.  No.     He  is  at  a  council  meeting. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Rubin,  what  do  you  understand  your 
imnumity  privilege  to  be  ?  Do  you  understand  your  immunity  under 
the  fifth  amendment  ?     What  do  you  understand  it  to  be  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  would  like  to  have  my  counsel  here. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  want  to  wait  until  later  on  this  after- 
noon ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  He  won't  be  here  today. 

Chairman  Kefau\t:r.  We  have  hacl  no  application  by  Mr.  Weiss  to 
put  off  any  of  your  hearing  on  the  ground  he  isn't  here;  but  if  you 
want  to  get  him  or  somebody  else,  we  will  give  you  a  while  this  after- 
noon to  do  so.  Would  you  rather  come  back  a  little  later  on  this 
afternoon  ?  Mr.  Rubin,  see  if  you  can  get  your  counsel  here  by  4 :  30 
or  some  other  counsel.     We  will  call  you  back  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  won't  get  anybody  else  but  Mr.  Weiss. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  A  council  meeting  doesn't  last  all  afternoon. 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  will  try  to  get  him,  sir. 


Chairinaii  Kefauver.  You  are  excused  until  4 :  30.  We  will  call 
you  back  then. 

Wlio  is  our  next  witness  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Morris  Gillman.  ,    .       o 

Chairman  KErAUVER.  Mr.  Gillman,  you  have  been  here  betore  ? 

Mr.  Gillman.  No.  t»t     i    j.^.  tv/t 

Mr  Gold.  Jacob  Lewis  Gold,  280  Broadway,  Manhattan.  Mi. 
Chairman,  my  client  objects  to  the  television  and  moving  pictures 

^^''^cSinnan  Kefauver.  All  right.     Mr.  Gold  objects  on  behalf  of  Mr. 
Gillman.     I  will  have  to  ask  your  indulgence. 
Mr.  Gold,  you  are  counsel  for  Mr.  Gillman? 

Mr.  Gold.  Yes.  ^    ,     ,      ,  .  ,  i  i 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Gillman,  I  don't  think  you  have  been 
sworn.     Do  you  solemnly  swear  the  testimony  you  will  give  this  com- 
mittee will  be  the  whole  truth,  so  help  you  God? 
Mr.  Gillman.  I  do. 


Mr.  Chumbris.  Your  name  is  Morris  Gillman  ? 

Mr.  Gillman.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Where  do  you  reside? 

Mr.  Gillman.  1815  Davidson  Avenue,  Bronx. 

Mr.  Chumbris,  ^^^lat  is  your  occupation  ? 

Mr.  Gillman.  I  am  not  employed  right  now  because  I  am  sick. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  How  long  has  that  been  ? 

Mr.  Gillman.  Quite  a  few  years.  . 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Could  you  be  specific?  AVhat  year  was  it>-1950, 
1951,  1952? 

Mr.  Gillman.  The  last  time  I  was  employed  was  m  1952. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  1952? 

Mr.  Gillman.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  What  month  ? 

Mr.  Gillman.  It  was  during  the  summer. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  What  type  of  work  were  you  doing  then? 

Mr.  Gillman.  It  was  in  a  dye  house  in  Now  Jersey. 

JSIr.  Chumbris.  What  was  the  name  of  the  company  ? 

Mr.  Gillman.  Ranko  Finishing  Co. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  What  type  of  work  did  you  do  ? 

Mr.  Gillman.  I  was  watching  the  goods  when  they  were  coming  out 
of  the  machine. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  What  salary  did  you  make? 

Mr.  Gillman.  It  wasn't  steady.  It  was  a  couple  of  days  a  week, 
and  I  couldn't  handle  it  because  it  was  too  heavy.  Sometimes  you 
have  to  lift  the  machine  to  get  the  goods  out. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  How  long  had  you  been  working  at  the  Ranko  Fin- 
ishing Co.? 

Mr.  Gillman.  A  couple  of  months. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  What  did  you  do  before  that  time  ? 

Mr.  Gillman.  I  wasn't  doing  anything.  I  was  staying  home,  taking 
•care  of  the  house.    I  was  sick. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Let  us  see  if  I  get  this  straight.  You  haven  t  been 
doing  anything  for  the  past  couple  of  years  ? 


Mr.  GiLLMAX.  Right. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  The  hist  job  you  had  was  with  Ranko  Finishing, 
and  you  hekl  that  job  for  2  months? 

Mr.  GillmajS'.  That  is  right;  I  couldn't  do  it. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Previous  to  that  time  what  work  did  you  do — pre- 
vious to  your  job  at  Ranko? 

Mr.  GiLLMAN.  I  haven't  been  doing  anything. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  For  how  many  years  back? 

Mr.  GiLLMAN.  Maybe  10 ;  maybe  9  or  10  years. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  How  have  you  been  supporting  yourself  ? 

Mr.  GiLLMAN.  The  wife  has  been  working  and  supporting  me. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Did  you  bring  any  of  your  records  with  you? 

Mr.  GiLLMAN.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  have  those  with  you  at  this  time  ? 

Mr.  GiLLMAN.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  us  get  the  records  in.  Wliat  records  do 
we  have  to  be  identified  ?  Catalog  them  so  they  can  be  turned  back 
to  Mr.  Gillman  or  his  attorney. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Gillman,  do  you  know  Andy  Bruckner? 

Mr.  Gillman.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  You  have  never  had  any  business  dealings  with 
a  person  named  Andy  Bruckner? 

Mr.  Gillman,  Not  that  I  know  of.  I  never  heard  of  that  name 

Chairman  IvEFAmTER.  Andy  Bruckner,  who  lives  in  New  Jersey, 
who  was  convicted  of  selling  filthy  pictures  and  whatnot. 

Mr.  Gillman.  I  don't  know  the  man.    I  never  heard  of  the  name. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  know  anybody  there  who  might  have 
been  him,  or  was  in  that  business? 

Mr.  Gillman.  I  was  never  in  that  business  in  my  life. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  know  Kenneth  Eads  ? 

Mr.  Gillman.  I  never  heard  that  name. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  If  we  got  the  wrong  information  about  you, 
1  certainly  want  to  apologize.  The  investigation  had  a  connection 
between  you  and  Bruckner.  If  you  don't  know  him,  that  is  something 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Gillman,  do  you  own  an  automobile  or  did 
you  own  a  1950  green  Ford  sedan,  registered  in  the  name  of  Morris 
Gillman,  1815  Davidson  Avenue,  Bronx,  New  York? 

Mr.  Gillman.  Wlien  my  wife  bought  it,  it  may  have  been  under 
my  name.    I  don't  remember. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  know  of  your  own  knowledge  whether  you 
ever  loaned  that  automobile  to  Kenneth  Eads  of  473  Second  Avenue  ? 

Mr.  Gillman.  I  never  loaned  my  car  to  anybody. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Did  he  get  the  car  and  have  it  around  in  some 

Mr.  Gillman.  Nobody  ever  drove  that  car. 

Chairman  Kefauvtsr.  Did  he  get  it  from  your  wife  ? 

Mr.  Gillman.  Nobody  drove  that  car  except  mj-self  and  my  wife. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Did  he  get  it  from  your  wife  ? 

Mr.  Gillman.  I  don't  think  so.     I  don't  know  of  any  such  name. 
Chairman  Kefauver.  If  he  had  your  car  and  got  arrested  with  your 
car,  would  you  know  about  that  ? 

Mr.  Glllman.  That  is  something  new  to  me. 


Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  your  car  4U9975  ? 
Mr.  GiLLMAN.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  A  1950  green  Ford  sedan  ? 
Mr.  GiLLMAN.  Wliat  year? 
Chairman  Kkfaun'er.  1950. 
Mr.  GiLLMAN.  I  know  we  had  a  1950  Ford. 
Mr.  Chumbris.  A  1950  Ford ;  is  that  correct? 
Mr.  GiLLMAN.  Yes,  but  I  don't  recall  the  plate  number. 
Mr.  Chumbris.  Let  me  make  this  statement,  and  you  tell  us  whether 
it  is  true  or  false.     On  March  11,  1950,  it  was  decided  to  keep  Ken- 
neth Eads,  of  473  Second  Avenue  under  observation.     At  about  1  p.  m. 
on  March  11,  1950,  Eads  left  473  Second  Avenue,  carrying  a  carton 
and  a  suitcase,  entered  car  license  No.  4U9975,  New  York,  a  1950  green 
Ford  sedan  registered  to  Morris  Gillman  of  1815  Davidson,  Bronx, 

Mr.  GiLLMAN.  I  don't  know  of  such  a  name. 

Mr,  Chumbris.  Who  had  police  department  record  E-1403.    The 
car  w^as  driven  by  an  unknown  male  who  drove  Eads  to  313  West  27th, 
where  Eads  left  the  car  and  entered  a  furnished  rooming  house. 
Chairman  Kefauver.  You  say  you  don't  know  Mr.  Eads? 
Mr.  GiiXMAN,  I  don't  know  Mr.  Eads. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  You  have  no  recollection  of  being  in  the  car  with 
the  person  going  to  that  address  that  I  mentioned  ? 
Mr.  GiLLMAN.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefaux^r.  "VVliat  have  you  ever  done,  Mr.  Gillman? 
Mr.  GiLLMAN.  Before  I  went  into  the  service  I  used  to  peddle  ties. 
Chairman  Kefauver.  Peddle  what  ? 
Mr.  GiLLMAN.  Ties. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  have  a  police  record,  Mr.  Gillman? 
Mr.  GiLLMAN.  I  paid  a  $50  fine  in  Jersey  City. 
Mr.  Chumbris.  What  was  that  for  ? 

Mr.  GiLLMAN.  That  was  for  peddling  at  that  time.  I  will  tell  you 
how  it  happened.  I  went  into  the  saloon  to  sell  the  ties,  and  while  I 
was  selling  the  ties  there  was  a  fellow  in  there  selling  pictures,  so  I 
bought  about  7  or  8  pictures  from  him ;  and  then  when  I  walked  out 
the  detective  stopped  me  for  a  license,  but  I  don't  have  any,  so  they 
searched  me  and  found  the  pictures  on  me;  and  they  arrested  me  at 
that  time.     That  was  in  1942. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Wliat  kind  of  pictures  were  they? 
Mr.  GiLLMAN.  They  were  fellows  and  girls.     I  was  young  at  that 
time.     I  bought  them  for  myself. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  right,  go  ahead. 

Mr.  CnirMKRis.  Were  you  ever  arrested  in  April  of  1942,  in  Jersey 
City,  charged  with  the  sale  and  possession  of  obscene  pictures — in 
Mr.  GiLLMAN.  I  just  explained  to  you  how  it  happened. 
Mr.  Chumbris.  That  was  in  1942  ? 
Mr.  GiLLMAN.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Was  that  the  only  time  you  were  arrested  ? 
Mr.  Gillman.  I  was  arrested  a  couple  of  times  for  shooting  dice, 
besides  that. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Where  was  that? 
Mr.  GiLLMAN.  Once  it  was  at  Newark. 
Mr.  Chumbris.  What  year  ? 


Mr.  G1LI.MAN.  I  don't  recall  exactly.     It  was  in  1945. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  know  where  Nick's  shoeshine  parlor 
and  novelty  store,  in  Ashburton  Avenue,  Yonkers,  is  ? 

Mr.  GiLLMAN.  We  live  right  near  Yonkers,  and  we  do  a  lot  of 
shopping  around  there,  but  I  don't  know  anybody  by  the  name  of 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Did  you  ever  meet  a  fellow  from  New  Jersey 
there  in  the  pornographic-literature  business? 

Mr.  GiLLMAN.  Never. 

Chairman  KErAUAT:R.  And  you  don't  know  Mr.  Bruckner? 

Mr.  GiLLMAN.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  know  a  man  named  Joe,  who  is  in 
that  business  ? 

Mr.  GiLLMAN.  No,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefau\t:r.  All  right. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  In  September  of  1953,  were  you  held  by  the  Natural- 
ization and  Immigration  Service  ? 

Mr.  GiLLMAN.  I  don't  know  what  they  wanted  me  down  there  for. 

Mr.  Gold.  There  was  a  hearing,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  There  was  a  hearing. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  was  it  about  ? 

Mr.  Gold.  A  question  of  these  convictions,  1  for  obscene  literature, 
possession,  in  1942 ;  and  2  convictions  for  gambling — shooting  dice.  _ 

Chairman  Kjepauver.  It  was  on  the  revocation  of  his  emigration 
citizenship  ? 

Mr.  Gold.  That  is  correct. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Where  were  you  born  ? 

Mr,  GiLLMAN.  Quebec. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  were  naturalized  when  ? 

Mr.  Gold.  He  was  naturalized  in  the  United  States  District  Court, 
right  here,  on  August  5, 1948. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  was  in  connection  with  the  possible  rev- 
ocation of  your  citizenship  ? 

Mr.  Gold.  That  is  correct. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Did  they  charge  him  with  moral  turpitude  at 
that  time? 

Mr.  Gold.  No,  they  did  not.  It  was  the  question  of  the  convictions — ^ 
the  one  for  possession,  and  two  for  gambling.  At  that  time  we  called 
the  attention  of  the  inspector  conducting  the  hearing  to  the  fact  that 
the  witness  had  received  a  discharge  under  honorable  circumstances 
from  the  United  States  Navy.  At  that  time  the  hearing  was  closed 
under  the  provisions  of  the  Emigration  and  Nationality  Act  of  1940 
which  permits  a  naturalization  without  question  to  an  applicant  dis- 
charged under  honorable  conditions  from  the  Amied  Forces. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Gold,  Mr.  Gillman  was  called  in  pri- 
marily in  connection  with  a  staff  report  he  was  associated  with  Mr. 
Bruckner,  who  has  been  dealing  in  pornographic  literature  extensively, 
and  who  was  arrested  and  sentenced  for  it. 

He  says  he  is  not  the  right  person,  and  this  other  matter  apparently 
has  had  some  connection  with  it  in  times  past;  but  that  is  not  the 
primary  matter  he  was  called  in  here  about. 

Mr.  Gold.  I  might  point  out  to  the  chairman  that  as  evidence  of 
good  faith  Mr.  Gillman  and  myself  requested  a  preliminary  hearing; 
before  one  of  the  counsel  to  the  committee  to  ascertain  what  he  was= 


here  for,  and  to  make  his  denials.  He  at  that  time  Avas  requested  to 
tell  the  committee  under  oath  the  same  things  he  had  told  Mr.  Gaughan^ 
I  think  it  was,  and  I  think  he  has  so  done. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Unfortunately,  lack  of  passing  information 
from  one  to  another— it  didn't  get  to  us.  Anyway,  that  is  all  for  the 
present  time. 

Mr.  Fishman. 

Mr.  Fishman,  you  are  a  good  public  official,  and  you  might  have  to 
talk  about  somebody,  so  1  guess  I  had  better  swear  you.  Do  you 
swear  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give  will  be  the  whole  truth,  so 
help  you  God? 

Mr.  FisiiMAX.  I  do. 


Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  us  get  on  with  Mr.  Fishman. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Fishman,  will  you  give  your  full  name  and 
address  and  official  capacity  for  the  record,  please  ? 

Mr.  Fishman.  Irving  Fishman;  I  live  at  2095  Kruger  Avenue; 
deputy  collector  of  customs  at  the  port  of  New  York. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Fisliman,  you  have  testified  previously  before 
congressional  committees  on  your  duties  and  responsibilities  as  a 
customs  official? 

Mr.  Fishman.  I  have. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  And  their  relationship  to  combatting  the  porno- 
graphic distribution? 

Mr.  Fishman.  I  have ;  that  is  right. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  have  a  prepared  statement  ? 

Mr,  Fishman.  I  have  a  prepared  statement  which  I  would  like  to 
refer  to  very  briefly. 

Chairman  Kefau\ter.  Do  you  want  to  file  your  statement? 

Mr.  Fishman.  I  have  submitted  to  the  committee  a  copy  of  this 
statement.  I  merely  wanted  to  establish  the  relationship  of  customs 
to  the  particular  problem  in  question. 

Chairman  Kefattver.  Your  statement  will  be  appended  in  full  to 
the  record. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Will  you  please  explain  under  what  act  you  operate, 
and  what  your  resi)onsibilities  are? 

Mr.  Fishman.  Well,  the  present  provision  of  the  Tariff  Act  under 
which  we  operate  has  appeared  for  the  first  time  in  the  Tariff  Act  of 
1942.  The  language  hasn't  changed  very  much.  The  specific  portion 
of  the  section,  section  305  of  the  Tariff  Act,  deals  with  the  prohibition 
against  the  importation  of  materials  considered  obscene  or  immoral. 
Those  two  tests  must  be  met  before  we  can  detain  or  hold  or  seize 
any  material  for  violation  of  this  provision  of  the  law.  The  deter- 
mination must  be  first  made  that  a  book,  or  photograph,  or  magazine, 
or  motion-picture  film,  is  either  obscene  or  immoral. 

The  determination  that  we  make  is  subject  to  review.  The  owner 
has  the  right  to  judicial  review,  and  before  we  can  forfeit  the  material 
a  report  of  the  facts  and  circumstances  of  seizure,  and  so  on,  is  sent 
to  the  Ignited  States  attorney  in  the  district  for  which  the  seizure 
is  made. 


Mr.  CnuMBRis.  How  much  of  a  personnel  does  your  office  have  to 
cover  the  many  ports  of  the  United  States  to  stop  the  traffic  of  por- 
nography from  getting  into  the  country  ? 

Mr,  FiSHMAN.  There  are  45  customs  districts  in  the  United  States. 
The  detention  of  material  as  possibly  objectionable  is  made  by  the 
examiners.  For  example,  at  the  port  of  New  York  there  is  a  book 
examiner  who  specializes  in  examining  printed  materials;  and  then, 
of  course,  we  have  our  customs  inspectors  who  examine  the  effects  of 
members  of  the  crew,  baggage  of  incoming  passengers;  and  we  also 
have  a  force  of  inspectors  who  examine  mail,  foreign  mail,  which  is 
turned  over  to  the  customs  service  by  the  Post  Office  Department  for 
examination.    The  purpose  of  this  is  for  the  collection  of  revenue. 

In  making  the  examination  to  determine  the  possible  assessment  of 
duties,  these  examiners  will  hold  any  material  which  they  suspect  may 
be  obscene  or  immoral.  That  material  is  then  sent  to  my  office,  where 
our  group  makes  the  final  determination  as  to  whether  the  material 
detained  is  actually  violative  of  this  section  of  the  law. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  I  understand  that  your  staff  has  set  up  some  new 
offices  in  New  Orleans  and  San  Francisco  and  in  Chicago,  or,  at  least, 
enlarged  those  offices.     Elaborate  on  that,  please. 

Mr.  FiSHMAN.  The  purpose  of  these  control  units  is  primarily  to 
assist  in  the  enforcement  of  a  Foreign  Agents'  Registration  Act  and 
deals  specifically  with  Communist-type  political  propaganda. 

In  connection  with  the  examination  of  imported  material  for  this 
purpose,  anything  found  violative  of  the  Tariff  Act  would  also  be  held 
and  seized  and  subsequently  forfeited. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  The  testimony  of  one  of  the  customs  officials  at  one 
of  our  community  hearings  stated  that  they  are  unable  to  ascertain 
the  amount  of  pornography  that  comes  into  the  country,  and  if  he 
were  to  estimate  he  would  place  it  at  about  5  percent  of  what  actually 
comes  in. 

Would  you  like  to  comment  on  that  ? 

Mr.  FiSHMAN.  I  don't  know  what  reference  he  was  making,  but  it 
seems  to  me  he  might  have  been  talking  about  our  current  problem — 
not  current,  but  it  has  been  our  problem  for  some  time,  due  to  lack 
of  adequate  personnel,  lack  of  appropriation,  and  so  on. 

We  examine,  as  I  mentioned,  such  mail  from  abroad,  such  foreign 
mail,  as  is  suspected  of  being  dutiable.  In  1953,  for  example,  the 
Post  Office  Department  submitted  to  the  customs  service,  countrywide 
at  these  districts  that  I  mentioned,  approximately  28  million  mailed 
parcels  for  examination. 

With  the  force  available,  we  can  look  at  about  5  percent  of  that  mail. 
Probably  his  reference  to  5  percent  may  have  been  to  the  part  that 
we  can  examine. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  have  jurisdiction  over  the  ships  that  come 
in  at  different  ports  ? 

Mr.  FiSHMAX.  Yes.  We  make  a  search  of  the  quarters  of  the  crews ; 
the  seizures  that  come  up  as  a  result  of  that  are  frequent.  Of  course, 
we  make  an  examination  of  the  effects  of  passengers  coming  into  the 
United  States. 

Mr.  Chumrbis.  Then  lack  of  personnel  is  one  of  the  problems  that 
your  agency  has  ? 

Mr.  FisHMAN.  Yes. 


.  Mr.  Chumbris.  Could  you  recommend  to  this  subcommittee  any 
amending  legislation,  or  the  amount  of  increased  appropriation,  that 
might  l)e  needed  to  properly  meet  this  problem  ? 

Mr.  FiSHMAN.  Any  observation  that  I  might  have  must,  of  course,  be 
strictly  my  own.  1  am  not  authorized  to  speak  for  the  Treasury  De- 
partment. Actually,  the  Treasury  Department,  Bureau  of  Customs, 
did  apply  for  an  increase  of  appropriation  for  the  purpose  of  coping 
with  this  mail  examination  problem. 

It  looks  as  though  this  next  fiscal  year  we  may  have  some  additional 
help  for  that  purpose. 

That,  of  course,  is  only  one  problem.  The  other  feature  of  it  is  the 
difficulty  of  administering  some  of  the  provisions  of  the  existing  law, 
due  to  the  difficulty  of  reaching  a  conclusion  as  to  what  is  obscene.  The 
courts  have  not  been  very  clear.     We  find  it  a  little  difficult  to  operate. 

Then,  of  course,  there  is  the  natural  apathy  of  the  public.  The  job 
of  detaining  or  examining  merchandise  to  ascertain  whether  it  is 
obscene  is  not  a  very  popular  type  of  thing.  Anybody  who  acts  in  the 
capacity  of  a  censor,  or  if  the  w^ord  "censorship"  is  used,  you  are  using 
a  dirty  word.  It  is  a  little  difficult  to  come  up  wdth  a  real  definition  of 
what  constitutes  obscenity. 

We  have  a  number  of  problems.  One  of  them  was  referred  to  in 
prior  testimony.  It  deals  with  this  problem  of  what  is  a  nudist 
magazine  and  what  is  a  magazine  which  may  be  considered  obscene. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  have  any  exhibits  there  of  seizures  you  have 
made  through  your  various  offices? 

Mr.  FisHMAN.  We  have  some  samples  of  some  of  the  things  that  we 
have  been  doing  a  little  discussion  with.  Some  of  these  things  have 
been  found  objectionable  and  some  have  not.  I  brought  along  a  few 
samples  of  the  type  of  imported  art  study  publications  that  we  are  con- 
stantly battling  with.  These  are  printed  abroad.  There  are  plenty 
of  them  printed  in  this  country.  This  type  of  thing  is  alleged  to  be 
used  by  photographers  and  students  of  art. 

Then  we  have  the  group  of  sunbathing  type  magazines,  which  give 
us  a  lot  of  difficulty.  And  then,  of  course,  we  have  the  type  of  foreign 
publications  which  we  have  found  objectionable,  as  being  porno- 

I  have  also  brought  along  for  examination  by  the  committee  some 
of  the  situations  that  w^e  have  been  able  to  correct.  For  example, 
it  was  a  popular  thing,  and  still  is  for  time  to  time,  a  piece  of  business 
to  advertise  in  college  publications,  that  you  can  send  away  and  buy 
various  types  of  photographs,  and  a  sample  of  the  type  of  photograph 
you  can  buy  is  sent  along.     You  can  order  by  number. 

If  you  order  and  your  money  happens  to  get  through  to  the  foreign 
country,  they  will  send  you  these  photogi'aphs.  Whenever  we  find 
a  concerted  move  to  buy  this  type  of  thing,  w^e  notify  the  Post  Office 
Department,  which  issues  a  fraud  order,  and  we  stop  the  money  from 
leaving  the  United  States  to  these  foreign  countries. 

One  of  the  things  we  are  alert  to  and  try  to  keep  under  control 
is  the  importation  of  negatives.  The  importation  of  one  negative  can 
result  in  the  production  of  a  couple  of  thousand  copies  in  this  country. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  have  many  negatives  that  you  have  been 

Chairman  Kefauver.  They  will  be  filed  as  exhibits;  also  the  nega- 
tives.    ^Ye  will  return  them  later,  if  you  would  like  to  have  them. 

65263—55 17 


Mr.  FiSHMAN.  Some  of  them  we  would  like  to  have  back  for  our 
evidence.     We  have  recently  made  some  large  seizures. 

Chairman  KEFAU^^^.R.  What  do  you  call  a  large  seizure? 

Mr.  FisHMAN.  A  couple  of  thousand  negatives  and  prints,  and  so 
on,  and  so  forth — various  assortments.  For  example,  this  sort  of 
thing.  These  are  negatives  and  they  are  in  series — complete  series 
of  photographs  which  are  subsequently  printed  and  made  into  a  book. 
One  set  of  these  negatives  can  result  in  the  production  of  a  heck  of 
a  lot  of  books. 

These,  of  course,  are  from  a  current  seizure  and  we  would  like  to 
get  them  back. 

Chairman  Kefau%t:r.  Are  they  mainly  pornogi-aphic? 

Mr.  Fishman.  Yes.  Some  of  them  are  not  only  pornogi'aphic  but 
they  are  filthy.  I  don't  think  we  would  have  any  difficulty  proving 
these  are  obscene.  1  put  these  aside  separately  and  I  would  like  to 
get  them  back,  if  we  could. 

Chairman  KEFAm^ER.  Where  do  most  of  these  things  come  from, 
Mr.  Fislmian? 

Mr.  Fishman.  Oh,  the  nudist-type  magazine;  they  are  generally 
shipped  from  France  and  Sweden.  We  get  some  from  Finland,  some 
from  Germany.  It  is  pretty  difficult  to  pinpoint  them;  they  come 
from  all  over. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Where  do  the  films  come  from? 

Mr.  FisHarAX.  We  have  difficulty  with  the  commercial  type  of 
motion-picture  film,  but  that  is  generally  not  as  hard  to  handle. 
The  real  obscene  type  of  film,  we  i)ick  that  sort  of  thing  up  infre- 
quently.    We  have  a  little  difficulty  with  that. 

We  had  1  seizure  some  time  ago  of  about  3,000  feet  of  film  on  1  reel, 
and  about  half  of  it  was  made  u])  of  Mickey  Mouse  movies,  and  if  our 
inspector  hadn't  been  persistent  enough  to  run  the  entire  thing  about 
halfway  into  the  reel,  he  would  never  have  found  any  of  the  objection- 
able material.  Obviously,  that  was  prepared  with  a  view  of  getting 
it  by  us.  Our  surveillance  is  pi-etty  tight  and  they  very  seldom  at- 
tempt to  smuggle  commercial  obscene  motion-picture  film  into  the 
United  States. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  As  I  understand  it,  on  letters  and  things  of 
that  sort,  you  have  a  staff  that  can  only  look  at  about  5  percent;  is 
that  right? 

Mr.  Fishman.  That  is  correct.  We  make  a  segregation  of  it.  Our 
people  are  pretty  expert  in  determining  from  the  size  of  the  package 
and  the  shipper  what  it  contains.  They  try  to  segregate  anything 
which  looks  like  it  might  be  questionable,  so  that  we  do  have  a  look 
at  it.  The  fact  remains  that  we  can  only  reach  about  5  percent  of  all 
of  this  imported  mail. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  there  an  effort  made  to  send  a  great  deal 
of  this  stuff  into  the  United  States  ? 

Mr.  Fishman.  It  ebbs  and  flows,  depending  on  the  situation  in  the 
country.  Every  time  the  courts  are  apt  to  become  liberal  in  their 
interpretation  of  what  is  objectionable,  there  is  an  increase  in  this 
type  of  thing. 

^  Chairman  Kefauver.  When  the  courts  crack  down,  then  there  isn't 
much  of  it  that  comes  in  ? 

Mr.  Fishman.  That  is  right.  As  a  result  of  some  of  the  recent/ 
rulings  on  motion-picture  film,  there  was  an  increase  of  foreign  mo- 


tion-picture  film  into  the  United  States,  which  we  ordinarily  would 
hold  up,  which  we  did  still  hold  up. 

Chairman  Kefauv'er.  As  a  result  of  the  Supreme  Court  decision, 
has  there  been  an  increase? 

Mr.  FiSHMAN.  That  didn't  help  us  very  much,  although  we  haven't 
changed  our  vieAvs  as  a  result  of  the  ruling. 

Chairman  Ivefauver.  You  were  not  ruling  out  "just  are,"  anyway, 
were  you  ? 

Mr.  FisHMAN.  No. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Whom  are  these  consigned  to  when  they  come 
over  here  ? 

Mr.  FisHMAN.  There  are  a  number  of  dealers  in  this  area,  and  also 
in  areas  throughout  the  United  States,  who  receive  commercial  lots  of 
this  type  of  magazine.  They  will,  continue  to  bring  in  the  type  that 
we  will  pass,  and  periodically  will  attempt  to  increase  the  number  of 
new  magazines  that  they  will  produce.  Some  of  them  have  been 
held  as  strictly  obscene,  and  those  they  stopped. 

It  is  a  constant  cat  and  mouse  situation.  As  we  hold  them  up, 
they  go  on  to  new  publications  and  new  titles. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  have  a  list  available  of  the  most  fre- 
quent consignees? 

Mr.  FiSHMAN.  We  can  make  up  such  a  list. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Make  it  up  and  we  will  make  it  an  official  part 
of  the  record.  Also,  describe  the  kind  of  material  that  is  being  con- 
signed to  them. 

Where  is  it  paid  for?  Is  it  paid  for  upon  delivery — that  is,  the 
freight  ? 

Mr.  FisHMAX.  It  is  usually  shipped  pursuant  to  a  letter  of  credit 
so  that  the  funds  are  turned  over  to  the  shipper  as  soon  as  the  shipment 
leaves  the  foreign  country. 

Chairman  Kefaua^er.  After  it  reaches  the  port  of  New  York  and 
the  port  of  Boston,  and  the  port  of  New  Orleans,  then  it  is  shipped  on, 
or  is  it  usually  received  in  the  port  ? 

Mr.  FisiiMAx.  i  would  assimie,  judging  by  the  quantities,  that  it  is 
distributed  througliout  the  United  States. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  And  then  shipped  further  by  truck  or  auto- 
mobile ? 

Mr.  FiSHMAx.  By  truck  or  automobile^ — anything  to  avoid  the  Post 
Office  Department. 

(Chairman  Kefauver.  They  don't  send  this  through  the  mails? 

Mr.  FisiiMAx.  Not  so  far  as  we  know. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  take  it  if  the  same  ruler  were  applied  to 
material  shipped  in  as  is  applied  to  what  is  sent  through  the  mails,  a 
lot  of  this  wouldn't  get  by  ? 

Mr.  FisHMAN.  That  is  right. 

Chairman  Kefai^ver.  If  you  had  the  same  definition  under  the 
customs  statute  that  you  have  in  the  postal  statute,  you  would  be 
relieved  of  a  whole  lot  of  headaches? 

Mr.  FisiiMAx.  That  is  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  reconunend  that  be  done? 

Mr.  FiSHMAx.  I  do. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  can't  see  the  logic  prohibiting  something 
from  going  tlirougli  the  mail,  and  at  the  same  time  letting  it  come  in. 

Mr.  FiSHMAx.  It  has  been  a  loophole  for  a  long  time,  but  while  it 


has  been  called  to  the  attention  of  many  groups  and  committees  up 
until  now  nothing  has  been  done  about  it.  We  testified  to  much  the 
feame  problem  before  another  committee,  and  I  think  the  Post  Office 
Department  and  the  Postmaster  General  will  have  lots  to  say  on  the 
same  subject. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  would  be  legislation  that  would  stop  a 
lot  of  it,  and  help  you  with  your  troubles  ? 

Mr.  FiSHMAN,  That  is  correct. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  am  looking  here  at  some  of  the  big  seizures 
that  you  have  made  of  6,000  cases,  or  books  or  what. 

Mr.  FiSHMAN.  May  I  see  the  photograph? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  was  looking  at  some  of  the  figures.  The 
importer  and  the  size  of  the  seizures  you  have  made. 

Mr.  FisrorAN.  Well 

Chairman  Kefauxt^r.  There  are  about  15  or  18  of  them,  and  all  of 
them  seem  to  have  been  released  except  2  of  them. 

Mr.  FiSHMAN.  They  represent  this  so-called  art  type  of  magazine. 
The  ones  that  we  have  indicated  as  being  released. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Sun  Reviews,  and  so  forth? 

Mr.  FiSHMAN.  I  brought  along  some  of  that  type  of  publication. 

Chairman  Kefaiwer.  Do  we  ship  much  of  this  stuff  out  of  the 
United  States  to  other  nations? 

Mr.  FiSHMAN.  I  am  afraid  I  couldn't  answer  that  question. 

Chairman  Kefaiwer.  That  doesn't  come  under  your  jurisdiction? 

Mr.  FiSHMAN.  We  have  some  control  over  exports,  but  we  don't 
look  for  that  sort  of  thing. 

Chairman  Ivefauver.  These  photographs  show  how  it  is  received  ? 

Mr.  FiSHMAN.  That  is  correct. 

Chairman  Kefau\-er.  Let  them  be  identified  and  be  put  in  as  ex- 

(The  photographs  were  marked  "Exhibit  22,"  and  are  on  file  with 
the  subcommittee.) 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  a  fine  service,  and  you  do  your  work 
and  sometimes  get  a  little  cooperation  and  a  little  praise.  I  hope  this 
subcommittee  can  help  get  this  law  in  shape  so  that  your  enforcement 
problem  will  be  easier.  . 

Senator  Danger.  The  Senate  last  year  passed  a  law  prohibiting 
transportation  by  automobile  and  by  plane.  It  didn't  pass  the  House. 
I  want  the  witness  to  know  that  it  has  had  some  consideration  down 
there  in  Washington. 

Chairman  Kefaumsr.  I  think  you  will  be  interested  in  knowing  as  a 
result  of  the  work  of  this  subcommittee  we  have  a  bill  through  the 
Senate  prohibiting  the  shipment  in  automobiles,  strengthening  our 
customs  laws  and  postal  laws,  and  it  has  been  over  in  the  House,  and 
since  the  hearings  started  up  here  the  House  Judiciary  Committee 
has  brought  out  the  bill  favorably,  so  it  looks  like  we  may  get  some 
action  in  this  session  of  Congress. 

We  want  to  encourage  you  in  your  work  and  we  appreciate  you 
telling  us  your  problems. 

We  will*  keep  these  exhibits  separate  and  return  them  to  you. 

Thank  you  very  much. 

Let's  have  about  a  5-minute  recess  at  this  time. 

(A  short  recess  was  taken.) 

Chairman  Kefauver.  ^Vlio  is  the  next  witness  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Shomer  or  Mr.  A.  M.  Shapiro. 


Chairman  Kefau\ter.  Mr.  Shomer  or  Mr.  Shapiro. 

We  will  let  the  siibpena  be  made  part  of  the  record  and.  Mr.  Mar^ 
shal,  will  you  notify  Mr.  Shapiro  if  he  is  not  here  before  the  hearing 
closes  this  afternoon  he  will  be  held  in  contempt  for  failing  to  answer 
the  subpena  ? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Has  Mr.  Shomer  come  yet  ? 

Joseph  Piccarelli  ? 

Chairman  IvEFAmT^R.  Mr.  Chumbris,  will  you  check  which  wit- 
nesses appeared  and  which  ones  are  missing? 

Mr.  Butler,  do  you  solemnly  swear  the  testimony  you  give  will  be 
the  whole  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 


Mr.  Chumbris.  Give  your  full  name  and  address,  and  your  official 
title  for  the  record,  please.  ^ 

Lieutenant  Butler.  George  Butler,  6447  Vehisco  Street,  Dallas, 
Tex.,  investigator  for  the  committee. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  the  record  show  Lieutenant  Butler  is  on 
loan  from  the  Dallas  Police  Force,  and  he  is  one  of  the  outstanding 
police  officers  in  Dallas.  We  had  him  on  loan  for  our  Senate  Crime 
Investigating  Committee,  where  he  did  a  very  remarkable  job,  and  we 
appreciate  him  being  with  us  now. 

Also,  he  has  acted  in  the  investigation  of  the  waterfront  problems 
here,  some  of  which  were  presented  by  our  committee,  and  most  of 
which  were  brought  out  by  the  New  York  Crime  Commission. 

Proceed.  .  o-      • 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Lieutenant  Butler,  you  know  one  Simon  Simring 
operating  in  the  southern  part  of  the  United  States  'i 

Lieutenant  Butler.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Ciii' mbris.  Did  you  investigate  that  particular  matter  ? 

Lieutenant  Butler.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Is  Simon  Simring  under  subpena  of  this  subcom- 
mittee ? 

liieutenant  Butler.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  (yiiuMBRis.  Would  you  please  explain  why  he  isn't  here? 

lieutenant  Buixer.  The  United  States  marshal  hasn't  been  able 
to  locate  him. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Have  you  personally  investigated  the  Simring 
matter  ? 

lieutenant  Butler.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Chi'ivibris.  Will  you  please  tell  us  now  in  your  own  words  the 
result  of  the  investigation  ? 

Lieutenant  Butler.  Well,  to  condense  the  investigation,  I  have 
draAvn  up  a  little  brief  on  it.  If  it  is  permissible,  I  would  like  to 
read  it  into  the  record. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  right.  Lieutenant  Butler.  These  facts  you 
know  of  your  own  knowle<%e  from  your  official  investigation? 

Lieutenant  Butler.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Ki:fauver.  Go  ahead  and  read  the  report. 

Lieutenant  Butler  (reading)  : 

This  man  is  regarded  as  one  of  the  largest  dealers  in  pornography  in  the 
southeastern  section  of  the  Nation.  While  no  complete  rundown  on  this  subject 
is  available  at  this  time,  it  is  known  that  he  was  arrested  in  St.  Petersburg, 


Fla.,  on  April  23,  1952,  for  possession  of  obscene  literature,  film,  and  other 

At  that  time  he  gave  his  address  as  540  Northwest  39th  Street,  Miami,  Fla. 
While  out  on  bond  in  this  case  Simring  was  arrested  on  July  19,  1953,  in  Johnson 
City,  Tenn.,  on  a  similar  charge.  Apparently  he  forfeited  the  $54.50  cash  bond 
in  this  case.     No  disposition  is  shown. 

On  February  11,  1953,  he  was  arrested  with  another  large  load  of  lewd  and 
obscene  material  in  Atlanta,  Ga. 

On  April  23,  1953,  he  was  charged  on  four  counts  in  connection  with  this  case. 
He  was  fined  $1,000  and  given  12  months  on  each  count,  all  sentences  being 
suspended.  Still  another  charge  resulting  from  this  arrest  was  nolle  prossed 
on  December  16,  1953  (Exhibit  1 — Police  Record  from  Atlanta,  Ga.). 

Simring  went  to  trial  in  the  St.  Petersburg  court  on  June  24,  1953.  He  was 
sentenced  to  4  years  in  Judge  Bird's  court.  This  trial  was  a  result  of  charges 
filed  against  him  on  the  arrest  and  seizure  in  that  city  on  April  23,  1952.  He 
appealed  his  case  and  was  released  on  bond  (letter  from  J.  R.  Reichert,  chief  of 
police  in  St.  Petersburg,  Fla.,  entered  as  exhibit  2  with  police  mug  of  Simring). 

While  out  on  bond  in  the  St.  Peter.sburg  case,  and  under  susijended  sentences 
in  3  counts  in  Atlanta,  Ga.,  Simring  was  arrested  on  April  30,  1955,  in  Orange- 
burg, S.  C.  A  very  large  seizure  of  pornography  material  was  maae  by  the 
Orangeburg  police  department,  and  an  outstanding  investigation  of  Simring 
was  made  by  Police  Chief  T.  E.  Salley.     This  investigation  is  still  in  progress. 

In  this  seizure  were  134  rolls  of  obscene  film,  S-millimeter  and  l(>-millimeter ; 
1,276  folders  of  lewd  and  obscene  photographs,  12  in  a  folder ;  512  folders  of 
obscene  photographs,  20  in  a  folder ;  663  stereo  slides  of  obscene  nature ;  1,900 
color  slides  of  nudes  and  suggestive  poses :  61  books  of  printed  material  and  pic- 
tures, "Permanent  Virgin"  and  "Switcli";  .330  boolcs  of  very  lewd  printed  mate- 
rial with  illustrations  titled  "Alcohol,"  "Search,"  "Dark  Paths,"  and  "Nora's 
Sister"  ;  120  envelopes  containing  10  each  very  lewd  pictures ;  567  various  rubber 
novelties  (inventory's  exhibit  3). 

A  large  roadmap  of  the  southeastern  section  of  the  United  States  was  found 
in  possession  of  Simring — 175  cities  and  towns  were  circled  on  this  map  (see 
exhibit  4  with  page  listing  cities). 

Simring  was  also  in  possession  of  customer  list  with  243  names  listed.  He  had 
a  card  index  file  reflecting  customer  and  contacts  in  21  States  and  Washington, 
D.  C.  The  index  file  carried  1,194  names.  It  is  interesting  to  note  that  the  list 
contained  names  and  addresses  of  well-known  dealers  in  the  pornography  racket, 
including : 

Stanley  Jablonski,  3510  Washington  Avenue,  Jacksonville,  Fla. 

Louis  Shomar,  1541  East  Fifth  Street,  Brooklyn,  N.  Y. 

Harvey  Brill,  Baltimore,  Md. 

Red  Florence,  care  of  ABC  Film  Co.,  Houston,  Tex. 

Ike  Dorfman,  Baltimore,  Md. 

Frank  Adler,  368  West  57th  Street,  New  York  City. 

It  will  be  interesting  to  note,  at  this  point,  that  a  lead  furnished  by  this  sub- 
committee out  of  Simring's  address  book  resulted  in  a  large  iwrnography  raid 
on  E.  "Red"  Florence,  9362  Friendly  Road,  in  Houston,  Tex.,  by  Sheriff  C.  V. 
Buster  Kerns  and  Chief  Deputy  Lloyd  Frazier.  The  outstanding  work  and 
cooperation  of  Sheriff  Kerns  and  his  staff  is  to  be  commended. 

A  comparison  of  the  material  seized  from  Simring  shows  it  to  be  the  same  type 
handled  by  Lewis  C.  Allen,  arrested  in  Memphis,  Tenn. ;  Eddie  Levy,  arrested 
in  Connecticut ;  Abraham  llubin  and  Al  Stone,  arrested  in  Detroit,  Mich  ;  Arthur 
Herman  Sobel,  arrested  in  Rhode  Island ;  Wyman  Parr,  arrested  in  Atlanta,  Ga. ; 
Abe  Rotto,  arrested  in  Brooklyn,  N.  Y. ;  Casimer  Wargula,  arrested  in  Buffalo 
N.  Y. ;  and  Eddie  Mishkin,  arrested  in  the  New  York  area. 

Simring  is  out  now  on  a  30-day  leave,  his  sentence,  and  it  was  during 
this  period  we  tried  to  get  a  hold  of  him  but  were  unable  to  do  so. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  I  understand,  Mr,  Butler,  he  has  been  under 
probation  in  Atlanta,  and  was  found  doing  business  and  arrested  in 
Johnson  City  and  somewhere  else  ? 

Lieutenant  Butler.  Yes,  sir.  From  the  time  he  was  arrested  in  St. 
Petersburg,  Fla.,  he  was  arrested  in  Tennessee,  Atlanta,  Ga.,  and 
Orangeburg,  S.  C.     He  was  out  on  bond  in  the  St.  Petersburg  case. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  these  charts  concerning  Simring's  opera- 
tions be  inserted  here. 

•  -V  ^- 


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Chairman  Kefaiwer.  Anything;  else,  Mr.  Chnmbris  ? 

Your  investigation  showed  him  to  be  one  of  the  hirgest  ones  operat- 
ing in  the  southern  part  of  tlie  country  ? 

Lieutenant  Butler.  Yes.  These  people  seemed  to  have  a  definite 
territory  that  they  operate  in.  It  is  more  or  less  like  a  traveling  sales- 
man in  any  other  business.  They  have  a  regular  route  that  they 

Chairman  Kefal^er.  This  Houston,  Tex.,  gang  that  was  busted  up 
as  a  result  of  this  lead,  was  that  a  substantial  one  ? 

Lieutenant  Blttler.  Yes,  sir;  that  was  a  large  seizure. 

Chairman  KErAU\'ER.  Who  was  the  man  that  ran  that  ? 

Lieutenant  Butler.  E.  Eed  Florence. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  He  has  recently  been  convicted  ? 

Lieutenant  Butler.  No;  he  was  recently  arrested.  He  is  under 
charges  in  Houston,  Tex.,  as  of  now. 

Chairman  Kefau\"er.  Senator  Langer,  any  questions  ? 

Senator  Langer.  They  divided  up  the  territory  ? 

Lieutenant  Butler.  Yes,  sir.  They  seemed  to  o])erate  in  various 
territories  like  that,  and  they  get  to  be  known ;  they  are  shipped  around 
to  some  territory  where  tlieir  faces  are  not  known. 

Senator  Langer.  Could  3'ou  furnish  the  subcommittee  with  a  map 
to  show  how  it  is  divided  and  who  is  boss  in  each  district  ? 

Lieutenant  Butler.  I  don't  have  that  information  yet.  Here  is  a 
man  operating  in  a  southern  section;  here  is  a  man  operating  more  to 
the  Midwest.  This  shows  in  eft'ect  the  places  that  were  covered  by  the 
raid  in  Houston,  Tex.  Up  here  is  shown  the  same  cities  were  marked 
where  pornography  was  sold  to  juveniles,  in  the  cities  in  the  black 
here — the  Southwest  distributorship  here. 

Over  here,  in  this  Baltimore  deal,  the  stuff  coming  to  Xew  York, 
and  is  being  parceled  out  all  over  the  United  States. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  That  is  from  Baltimore  ? 

Lieutenant  Butler.  Yes,  sir.  The  stuff  is  sent  to  these  distributors, 
which  would  be  called  a  wholesaler,  and  it  is  our  understanding  that 
each  one  of  these  people  sell  material  in  that  area  that  they  work. 

Senator  Langer.  Would  you  go  so  far  that  a  few  men  have  a  monop- 
oly on  this  business  ? 

Lieutenant  Butler.  They  are  trying  to  get  it. 

Senator  Langer.  Senator  Kefauver  would  be  very  interested  in 
that.  Have  you  got  considerable  evidence  that  it  is  divided  up  in 
territories  ? 

Lieutenant  Blttler.  Yes,  sir.  They  seem  to  work  a  vast  territory 
like  this.  Each  man  has  a  different  locality.  They  don't  seem  to  en- 
croach on  each  other's  territory. 

Chairman  Kefauater.  We  will  go  further  into  this  in  our  Los 
Angeles  hearings.  We  have  some  information  already  as  to  opera- 
tions in  the  western  part  of  the  country.  After  those  hearings  have 
been  completed,  I  think  we  will  be  able  to  get  a  nationwide  picture 
of  operations,  some  of  whioli  we  do  not  have  established  in  our  testi- 
mony as  yet. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Lieutenant,  have  you  examined  any  of  the  films  and 
pictures  that  have  been  confiscated  fi'om  Simring? 

Lieutenant  Butler.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Have  you  observed  the  age  of  some  of  the  actors 
in  those  films  and  pictures  ? 


Lieutenant  Butler.  In  Simring's  seizure,  I  don't  recall  any  juve- 
niles. There  is  evidence  that  the  same  type  of  material  distributed 
by  Simring  has  been  picked  up  on  various  school  grounds  in  the  sec- 
tion that  he  operated  in. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Then  his  material  has  gotten  to  the  juveniles  in 
those  areas? 

Lieutenant  Butler.  The  same  type  of  material ;  yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  have  some  of  the  samples  that  you 
can  make  exhibits  here? 

Lieutenant  Butler.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  them  be  marked  as  exhibits. 

They  will  be  ])art  of  the  record  here. 
Lieutenant  Butxer.  The  film  that  he  had 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Make  them  exhibits,  too. 

(Sam})]es  T)f  pornography  were  marked  "Exhibit  No.  23,"  and 
are  on  file  with  the  subcommittee.) 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  know  of  your  own  knowledge  that  some 
more  film  that  has  been  picked  up  from  Simring  had  been  sent  to 
tlie  subcommittee  in  Washington? 

Lieutenant  Butler.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  And  you  don't  know  of  your  own  knowledge 
wliether  there  were  any  minors  being  participants  in  those  films? 

Lieutenant  Butler.  No,  sir;  I  haven't  seen  them. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Any  questions.  Senator  Langer? 

Senator  Langer.  Do  you  have  any  evidence  at  all  that  women  are 
mixed  up  in  this  business  ? 

Lieutenant  Bltler.  Yes,  sir.  They  play  an  important  part  in  the 
posing  of  these  pictures.     You  mean  in  the  distribution  of  it,  Senator  ? 

Senator  Langer.  What  I  want  to  know  is  whether  there  were  any 
women  mixed  up  in  the  manufacturing,  printing,  mailing  it,  dis- 
tributing it? 

Lieutenant  Butler.  No,  the  only  women  we  know  of  so  far  are  the 
women  that  posed  for  the  pictures. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Thank  you.  Lieutenant  Butler,  very  much. 
We  appreciate  your  good  work  in  this  other  field. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Has  Mr.  Weiss  come  in  yet,  the  attorney  for  Mr. 
Kubin  ? 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Eubin,  you  come  back  around  here. 

You  have  been  in  touch  with  your  counsel  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  have  tried  to  get  in  touch  with  him,  but  he  wasn't  in. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  He  hasn't  called  to  ask  for  any  delay  or  ex- 
tension of  the  hearing? 

Mr.  Rubin.  He  told  me  to  ask  you,  but  if  it  is  all  right  with  you, 
1  want  to  go  ahead  with  it. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Are  you  ready  to  go  ahead? 

Mr.  Rubin.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  got  it  written  out  there? 

Mr.  Rubin.  Yes. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  have  got  your  counsel's  advice  on  a  piece 
of  paper;  is  that  right? 

Mr.  Rubin.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Chumbris,  will  you  make  a  brief  state- 
ment about  the  nature  of  your  questions,  and  what  you  expect  to  bring 
out  by  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Rubin,  or  have  you  done  that  ? 


Mr.  Chumbris.  Our  investigation  reveals  that  Mr.  Abraham  Rubin, 
alias  Al  Rubin,  alias  Abraham  Rubinstein,  alias  Stoney  Rubin  White, 
alias  Al  Stone,  is  one  of  the  large  distributors  of  pornography  through- 
out the  United  States,  that  he  has  contacts  in  many  of  the  cities  such 
as  Chicago,  St.  Louis,  New  York  City,  Washington,  D.  C,  Jackson- 
ville, Fla. ;  he  has  been  connected  with  E.  Red  Florence,  of  Houston, 
Tex.,  and  Simon  Simring,  of  Miami,  Fla.,  as  well  as  Eddie  Mishkin, 
who  was  here  this  afternoon. 

We  have  information  that  this  pornographic  material  is  distrib- 
uted and  gets  into  the  hands  of  juveniles  and  definitely  has  an  impact 
on  youth  and  juvenile  delinquency. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  it  distributed  across  State  lines? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  It  is  distributed  across  many  State  lines.  At  least 
20  States  have  been  listed  in  areas  where  Al  Stone  distributes  this 
pornographic  material.  The  police  chiefs  of  Detroit  and  Chicago 
were  here  and  testified,  and  they  definitely  know  of  the  operations  of 
Al  Stone,  alias  Abraham  Rubin,  as  well  as  Inspector  Blick,  who  also 
testified  during  the  course  of  these  hearings. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Their  testimony  is  in  the  record  and  if  nec- 
essary it  will  be  made  part  of  any  special  record. 

You  ask  Mr.  Stone  any  questions  you  have  to  ask  him. 


Mr.  Chumbris,  Will  you  please  give  your  full  name  and  address  for 
the  record  again,  please? 

Mr.  Rubix.  Abraham  Rubin,  1639  41st  Street,  Brooklyn. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Are  you  also  known  as  Al  Stone  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of  the 
fifth  amendment  of  tlie  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Mr.  Rubin,  you  have  been  here  in  the  hearing 
room  when  we  have  had  other  witnesses  who  have  taken  the  fifth 
amendment.  We  don't  want  to  deny  it  to  you  or  to  any  other  witness 
whose  testimony  would,  indeed,  tend  to  incriminate  you.  It  seems 
to  me  this  is  a  proper  question.  The  purpose  of  this  subcommittee  will 
be  to  ask  that  the  full  committee  cite  you  for  contempt  if  you  refuse 
to  answer  this  question.  It  will  then  be  sent  to  the  district  atorney, 
who  will  present  it  to  the  grand  jury,  if  he  wishes  to,  and  there  will  be 
a  trial  if  a  true  bill  is  found. 

I  feel  that  I  must  warn  you  of  the  intention  of  this  subcommittee, 
and  also  order  you  to  answer  that  question. 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  the  record  show  that  Mr.  Rubin  has  a 
piece  of  paper  that  he  is  reading  from. 

Ask  him  the  next  question. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Rubin,  alias  Mr.  Stone 

Chairman  Kefau\t:r.  Just  say  Mr.  Rubin. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Rubin,  do  you  know  Frank  Leno,  alias  Frank 
Uderri,  of  Chicago,  111.? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  The  chairman  orders  you  to  answer  under 


Mr.  KuBix,  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
tlie  fifth  amendment  of  tlie  Constitution. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Do  you  know  Stanley  Jablonski,  of  Jacksonville, 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let's  ask  the  question  in  a  different  way.  Do 
you  know  Stanley  Jablonsky,  who  is  purported  to  have  some  connec- 
tion with  pornogi-aphic  literature,  in  Jacksonville,  Fla.  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  1  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  ordered  and  directed  to  answer  under 
the  penalty  of  being  in  contempt  of  the  United  States  Senate. 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of  the 
fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  business  are  you  in  ? 

Mr.  Rubin,  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of  the 
fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  ordered  to  answer. 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of  the 
fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  KEFAu^'ER.  In  any  business  that  you  might  be  in,  do  you 
employ  children  or  teen-agers? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of  the 
fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  oi'dered  and  directed  to  answer  under 
penalty  of  being  in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of  the 
fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  know  what  the  immunity  provision  is? 

Mr.  Rubin.  My  rights  of  the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  fully  apprised  of  your  rights  and  the 
j)enalties  that  go  with  the  refusal  to  answer  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of  the 
fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Will  you  tell  us,  Mr.  Rubin,  what  information 
you  have  about  what  the  fifth  amendment  is'^ 

Mr.  Rubin.  Constitutional  rights. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Did  you  talk  with  your  lawyer  about  it  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Who  wrote  out  this  piece  of  paper  where  you 
have  that  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  My  lawyer. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Did  the  lawyer  just  tell  you  to  read  that  when- 
ever you  were  asked  a  question  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  That  is  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Is  that  right? 

Mr.  Rubin.  That  is  right. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  answering  some  questions.  Did  he 
say  to  you  "Use  your  own  judgment"? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of  the 
fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Senator  Danger.  Do  you  know  who  is  the  President  of  the  United 


Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of  the 
fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Senator  Langer.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  Abraham  Lincoln  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of  the 
fifth  amendment  of  tlie  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  We  will  order  to  direct  you  to  answer  that 
question  under  penalty  of  bein^  in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of  the 
fifth  amencbnent  of  the  Constitution. 

Mr.  CiiuMBRis.  Mr.  Rubin,  I  hand  you  an  exhibit,  which  contains  a;, 
front-face  photograph  and  side-view  photograph  with  "Department 
of  Police,  Detroit,  No.  109385,  FBI  No.  ()08419,  in  the  name  of  Abra- 
ham Rubin,"  and  I  show  it  to  you,  and  ask  you  if  you  can  identify 
that  ?     Do  you  have  any  knowledge  of  that  photograph  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  undei-  the  imminiity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chainnan  Kefauver.  The  Chairman  orders  you  to  answer  under 
penalty  of  being  in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immuuity  proAnsions  of  the 
fifth  amendment  of  the  (Constitution. 

Chairman  Kkfaiver.  This  has  been  made  part  of  the  record,  and 
will  be  filed  as  an  exhibit. 

Mr.  Rubin,  I  think  you  ought  to  understand  that  the  fifth  amend- 
ment is  for  the  real  protection  of  people  when  they  are  called  upon 
to  testify.  It  is  not  a  provision  that  is  to  be  used  just  for  coving  up 
or  to  prevent  a  Senate  committee  from  securing  facts  that  it  is  entitled 
to  have.  Our  purpose  here  is  to  get  information.  I  think  you  ought 
to  think  seriously  about  what  you  are  doing  here  today. 

Is  there  anything  that  you  will  tell  us  about  your  business,  Mr. 
Rubin  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  imnuniity  provisions  of  the 
fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  directed  and  ordered  to  and  under 
penalty  of  being  held  in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  i-efuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution, 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Rubin,  I  show  you  a  record  of  the  Detroit  Police 
Department,  No.  109385,  in  the  name  of  Abraham  Rubin,  FBI  No. 
608419,  and  attached  thereto  is  a  photo,  one  is  a  side  view,  one  is  a  front 
view^,  the  front-view  picture  contains  a  notation  "Detroit  Police, 
5-19-53,"  with  the  number  of  109385,  which  is  consistent  with  the 
number  that  I  just  read,  of  the  Detroit  Police  Department.  I  show  it 
to  you  and  ask  you  if  you  can  identify  it,  and  if  that  is  your  picture? 

Mr.  Rubin.  1  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Keiauver.  Let  the  exlnbit  which  counsel  asked  about,  be 
marked  so  that  we  can  see  what  it  is. 

You  are  ordered  and  directed  to  answer  the  question  under  penalty 
of  being  in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  RuTBiN.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  innnunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  May  I  introduce  into  the  record  a  road  map  of  the 
Northeastern  part  of  the  United  States  ? 


Chairinaii  Kefauv'er.  That  will  be  introduced  into  the  record  today. 

Mr.  CiiUMHRis.  Mr.  Rubin,  I  have  here  an  AAA  road  map,  Ameri- 
can Automobile  Association,  covering  the  Northern  States,  and  in  this 
map  it  shoves  circles  in  a  reddish  purple  color,  with  circles  marked 
around  the  cities  of  New  York,  Richmond,  Va ;  Louisville,  Ky. ;  St. 
Louis,  Mo. ;  Indianapolis,  Ind. ;  Fort  Wayne,  Ind.,  an  area  covering 
the  cities  of  Michiaan  City,  New  Bulfalo,  Michigan  City  being  in 
Indiana,  and  New  Buffalo  being  in  Michigan;  Detroit,  Mich.,  and  in 
the  same  map  there  is  a  green  road  identification  covering  those  same 
cities  which  indicates  a  route  map  prepared  by  the  AAA  for  those 

Have  you  ever  seen  this  particular  map  before,  and  was  it  not  taken 
from  your  possession  by  the  Detroit  police  department  ? 

Chairman  KErAU\TER.  Ask  the  first  cjuestion. 

Mr.  CiiUMBRis.  Have  you  seen  this  map  before  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefaui^er.  You  are  ordered  to  answer  under  the  penalty 
of  being  in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

(^hairman  Kefauver.  Let  it  be  Exhibit  24. 

(The  map  Avas  marked  "Exhibit  No.  24,"  and  is  on  file  with  the 

I  think  you  said  it  was  found  in  his  car,  and  other  evidence  shows 
that  ]Mr.  Rubin  was  in  these  towns  set  forth  on  the  map. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  That  is  correct. 

Chairman  Kefaum^r.  All  right. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  I  again  show  you  this  particular  map,  and  wasn't 
this  map,  marked  "Exhibit  No.  24,"  covering  the  cities  heretofore 
mentioned,  the  same  map  tliat  was  taken  from  your  car,  in  your  pos- 
session, on  or  about  the  19th  day  of  May  1953  by  the  Detroit,  Mich., 
police  department? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  directed  to  answer  under  penalty  of 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Senator  Langer.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  note  that  Mr.  Abraham  Rubin 
got  6  months  susj^ended  sentence  in  Poughkeepsie  for  possessing  ob- 
scene literature,  in  1982,  on  November  23. 

On  the  24th  of  February,  1923,  he  was  fined  $250  and  costs,  and  a 
suspended  sentence  of  6  months  in  jail,  at  Darien,  Connecticut. 

On  the  4th  day  of  May,  1933,  he  was  sentenced  to  3  months  in  Erie 
County  Penitentiary,  in  Buffalo,  N.  Y. 

On  the  5th  day  of  April,  1933,  for  violating  section  1141  of  the 
United  States  Code,  he  got  3  months. 

I  find,  on  the  14th  day  of  February,  1934,  according  to  the  Detroit 
police  record,  for  possessing  obscene  literature,  he  got  a  $75  fine  or  30 
days  in  the  county  jail  in  New  York. 

In  1934,  for  possessing  obscene  literature,  he  got  30  days  in  Provi- 
dence, R.  I. 


On  the  4th  day  of  July,  1934,  for  possessing  obscene  literature,  he  got 
30  days  and  costs. 

On  the  18th  day  of  May,  1953,  for  possessing  obscene  literature  in 
Detroit,  Mich.,  he  got  $100  and  90  days  in  jail. 

It  seems  to  me  that  if  that  be  the  record,  we  should  draw  up  legisla- 
tion that  would  provide  for  a  second  and  third  and  fourth  offense  that 
the  penalty  be  more  stringent.  If  this  record  is  correct — and  there  is 
no  reason  to  believe  that  it  is  not,  we  find  here  after  the  sixth  offense  for 
possessing  obscene  literature,  Mr.  Rubin  received  a  $100  fine  or  90  days 
in  jail. 

In  New  York  we  have  the  Sullivan  law — we  have  a  law  which  pro- 
vides for  four  felonies  a  man  gets  life.  Yet  we  have  the  absurd  situ- 
ation where,  for  a  sixth  offense,  a  man  pays  a  $100  fine. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Your  comments  and  suggestions  are  good. 
Senator  Langer,  and  I  agree  with  you  that  a  man  with  this  long  record, 
still  showing  no  heavy  penalties,  is  not  very  effective  law  enforcement. 

It  may  be  that  these  different  places  did  not  know  about  his  previ- 
ous record,  but  certainly  as  to  Federal  convictions,  to  the  extent  that  it 
comes  under  the  Federal  law,  will,  in  the  future — I  will  ask  the  staff 
to  consider  and  make  a  study  of  just  what  we  can  do  to  have  some  more 
severe  penalties  as  time  goes  on. 

Senator  Langer.  I  will  be  happy  to  be  a  cosponsor. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Thank  you.     We  will  cosponsor  it  together. 

Mr.  Rubin,  let  me  see  if  I  can  get  clear  again  just  what  your  lawyer 
told  you  with  reference  to  pleading  this  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of  the 
fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Senator  Langer.  Did  I  hear  you  say  your  lawyer  was  a  member  of 
the  city  council  of  the  city  of  New  York  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Did  the  attorney  advise  you  to  invoke  your 
privilege  on  every  question  that  was  asked  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Do  you  mean  that  the  advice  your  attorney 
gave  you  might  incriminate  you  if  related  to  this  committee? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  What  did  your  lawyer  say  to  you  in  his 
office  at  that  time  when  you  went  to  him  for  counsel  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefau\'er.  You  mean  again  to  say  that  any  advice  you 
may  have  gotten  would  cause  you  any  trouble  if  related  here,  that  it 
might  incriminate  you  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Any  other  questions? 

Mr.  Chumbris.  I  have  just  one  more  exhibit. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  All  right. 

Mr.  Chumbris.  Mr.  Rubin,  I  have  here  a  photostatic  copy  of  a 
name  and  address  book  of  Al  Stone,  also  known  as  Abraham  Rubin, 
which  address  list  has  in  it  numerous  names,  one  of  which  is  Abe 


Rotto,     New     York     City;     another,     Eddie,     telephone     number, 
SP  9-3384 

Chairman  Kefafvek.  Let  it  be  filed  as  an  exhibit — and  ask  him 
about  it. 

(The  address  book  was  marked  "Exhibit  No.  25,"  and  is  on  file  with 
the  subcommittee.) 

Chairman  Kefauver,  Do  you  know  anything  about  that  list? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
tlie  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  are  ordered  and  directed  to  answer 
imder  penalty  of  being  in  contempt  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  Let  the  purported  address  book  be  made  an 

Mr.  Rubin,  I  want  you  to  understand  again  that  the  members  of 
tliis  subcommittee  do  not  intend  to  let  you  get  by  with  your  refusal 
to  answer  questions  propounded  to  you  here.  Complaints  have  come 
to  us,  in  correspondence,  that  you  are  one  of  the  biggest  operator 
in  this  despicable  pornography  field  in  the  whole  United  States; 
that  you  have  connections  with  people  all  over  the  country ;  that  you 
have  been  in  this  business  a  long  time.  You  seem  not  to  have  learned 
any  lesson  from  this  long  list  of  arrests  and  convictions.  It  is  unfor- 
tunate that  you  do  not  appreciate  the  damage  that  your  kind  of 
business  is  doing  to  the  young  people  in  this  country. 

I  want  to  tell  you  again  tliat  we  expect  to  do  everytliing  in  our 
power  to  secure  a  contempt  proceeding  against  you,  unless  you,  at 
this  time,  want  to  answer  questions  and  tell  us  what  the  subcommittee 
has  a  right  to  know — in  other  words,  purge  yourself  of  any  possible 

Do  you  have  anything  further  you  want  to  say  ? 

Mr.  Rubin.  I  refuse  to  answer  under  the  immunity  provisions  of 
the  fiftli  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Chairman  Kefauver.  You  remain  under  subpena,  and  you  will  be 
hearing  from  this  committee  and  other  officials  later  on. 

Mr.  Shomer,  Avill  you  come  around? 


Mr.  Sliomer  has  been  here.  Mr.  Chumbris,  do  you  have  anything 
else  you  want  to  ask  him? 

Mr.  Ch